Will Chemtrail Believers now ride the Aerotoxic Syndrome Bandwagon?

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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Years back, a perennial poster at the chentrailcentral.com forum made much of his claim to have in his possesion a used 747 cabin air filter. On most jets, cabin air is supplied under pressure from the air compressor integral to the jet engines. This air is not filtered, theough the air which recirculates in the cabin is generally filtered.

The idea was that anything released at flight altitudes would build up on cabin air filters and "Sore Throat" would have the filter analyzed for whatever. So far as I know, over a decade has passed and no such analysis has been shown. Others, even debunkers, have suggested the idea, and as airborne dust contains dirt, you would suspect whatever is in the dirt to be found in the filters.

However, some recent news has come out regarding two pilots who died post-employment which a UK attorney is claiming had experienced "Aerotoxic Syndrome":

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-airways-pilots-killed-by-toxic-1559777

Both of these pilots appear to have had ancillary medical issues (cancer and auto accident) and the male had sought treatment for suicide. I know from experience that sometimes cabin air has exhaust fumes, but so did some trains I've been on.

What I am wondering about is whether someone associated with these pilots or one of the chemtrails promoters will see an opportunity waiting. I've seen this before as one party or another seeks to advance their cause by riding the coattails of another. We've seen the chemtrails people "target" folks interested in pollution, alzheimers and even farmers trying to make a living.

To anyone genuinely interested in improving problems related to airplane cabin air, do yourself a favor and stay away from the chemtrails hoax. Those people will ruin your credibility by associating your cause with theirs. They are "users" in the full sense of that word.

To the chemtrails folks. If you want to bring on a claim that something is awry with cabin air as a result of your hoax, bring it on. Been waiting for over ten years.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
This did the rounds on some of the UK based FB pages but it soon died down. Once you point out that it is a real issue with the substances involved under scrutiny people backed off. Logical arguments helped like "pilots are deliberately killing themselves by flying through your chemtrails then?" or "If pilots are willing to raise the issue, in numbers, why not go the whole hog if it is chemtrails. There is safety in numbers after all and it is their health".
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
Jay, where are you getting your info about cabin air filters? Some airlines are allowed to completely remove the cabin air filters, thus leaving no filtration. I can only assume they have made some sort of agreement with the FAA in that case. This is an assumption on my part but cabin air filters are basically carbon filters and that's it. They are FAA/PMA so they are 10x what they should cost and the airlines want to eliminate them, I've experienced this with my airline, we flew a BAE-146, known as the AVRO-185, or the Bach jet. Every part of the aircraft smelled of jet fumes, and the cabin ventilation had carbon deposits, it was disgusting, our filters were removed.
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
Boeing's FAQ has some answers for what happens to air filters - see here


Seriously...MIKEC? Don't do that to me...please. You might as well handed that to someone who has never flown. I've flown over 11,000 hours, most of it in commercial airline aircraft. I was asking out of curiosity, not out of lack of knowledge.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Not everything is about you!! :p :)

No - not for you - but not everyone has done so, and spreading a little factual knowledge doesn't hurt.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
For those not familiar with aerotoxic syndrome, the culprit is tri-cresyl phosphate, a compound in synthetic oil that is pyrolised in hot engine bleed air, usually admitted into the system by faulty labyrinth seals. Bleed air is where the cabin air comes from.

Recent research indicates that the propensity to exhibit symptoms after an exposure may have a genetic link. At any rate it is nasty stuff, an organosphosphate, a nerve agent and for obvious reasons the airlines and regulators deny it has adverse effects.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
For those not familiar with aerotoxic syndrome, the culprit is tri-cresyl phosphate, a compound in synthetic oil that is pyrolised in hot engine bleed air, usually admitted into the system by faulty labyrinth seals. Bleed air is where the cabin air comes from.

Recent research indicates that the propensity to exhibit symptoms after an exposure may have a genetic link. At any rate it is nasty stuff, an organosphosphate, a nerve agent and for obvious reasons the airlines and regulators deny it has adverse effects.
I may be wrong but in the presence of aluminium it will form phosphine gas. That is nasty stuff.

Substances like that tend to have low Permitted Exposure Levels and it would seem barking mad to have them anywhere near pilots and enclosed spaces.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
My memory of the problem when it affected Ansett NZ BAe 146's 20 years ago is that the substance is vapourised, so is a gas, and will not be stopped by HEPA filters.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Why? Is there no science to prove it?

There is plenty of evidence it is a neurotoxin and many deaths have been attributed to it - see the wiki article.

What is lacking is the definitive link between it and Aerotoxic syndrome, for which there are many potential causes.

However there have ben a couple of court cases where it was known that there was oil fumes involved, and they have been blamed - but not all cases can be traced to known ouil fumes.

the Australian case of Joanne Turner in he wiki article is right in the same time frame as I was working for Ansett NZ - the ultimate fix for that was replacement of the APU's with an uprated model that had a different oil seal.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
So why is the bleed air not filtered before it enters the cabin air circulation system?

MikeC would be better able to answer that but I believe it is possible, with a cost, and a possible performance penalty.

Or you can dispense with the bleed air system completely such as they did on the Boeing 787.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Why? Is there no science to prove it?

Loads of science mate. In the army I was treated as a specialist in chemical warfare and have seen animals die due to organophoshates and we even met survivors. The science is real and immediate, however it does not look at low dosage long term exposure
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I am still interested in this subject because at least one chemtrails promoter, Max Bliss has begun riding the bandwagon as I predicted a month ago.

It basically starts here on another thread, but I'll continue on here.

To summarize, Max has called Dr. Michel Mulder of the Netherlands, and I've been looking at the Dr.

From what I've gathered, Mulder is associated with one or more medical practices which seeks to serve the needs of people with possible "Aerotoxic Syndrome".

These two businesses have significant contacts with Mulder:
http://bgoffshore.eu/store/index.php?route=common/home

BG sells a "90 day Recovery package" for 375 Euros consisting of vitamins, minerals, MSM and some other things I haven't looked into.

BG also offers a "Health Assessment" which is said to include "a neurotransmitter and a detox test".
This item is at a more reasonable price of 0.50 Euros, probably because it is simply a questionaire you fill out.

BG also offers a "consult with a specialist" for 125 Euros. Not sure if that covers the complete cost, because under description it says "Intake E250 2 hours", so maybe you get two hours for 250 Euros.

This fellow, Dirk Zoutewelle speaks about Mulder on the BGOffshore website.

Zoutewelle owns "Cell Care", maker of the products sold in BG's "90 Day Recovery Package" above.

dirk.jpg

see the video here:
http://vimeo.com/user11268878/videos

Under their "Causes and Solutions" page, BG says:

From causes to solutions
To date, mainstream medicine has not been able to find a medical cure for the neurological symptoms caused by aerotoxic syndrome, possibly due to a lack of incentive: the number of treatable patients is relatively small according to pharmaceutical standards, and matters are not helped by the denial or lack of understanding by national or global health authorities.

Dietary interventions to replenish biochemical deficits

Since the problem arises from a system robbed of its nutritive reserves, the most obvious route to recovery includes carefully orchestrated supplementary measures. Experimental protocols have led to dramatic intermediate results, and research to validate these results is currently underway.

The costs incurred by the incapacitation of highly qualified personnel, not to mention the grief and suffering of affected workers – all of which can be prevented and remedied by relatively simple dietary interventions with no side effects – suggest that a solution involving the so-called ‘biochemical supplementation’ concept should receive the highest priority from both insurance companies and legislative powers.

So, it appears to me that BG is saying the solution to aerotoxic syndrome is a regimen of supplements.

===========================================

BG and Dr. Mulder are in a partnership with ProHealth.NL, a Netherlands based diagnostic laboratory.
They do body fluid testing for many things, one unusual one is for Lyme Disease which throws up a red flag for me, Lyme Disease has been a welcome home for many quack practitioners here in the USA.
=========================================

I'm not ready to call this a scam quite yet, but it appears to be at least a business.
 
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cloudspotter

Senior Member.
To be fair the Aerotoxic Association says there are no conventional treatments and does list things like supplements and detox as things that have worked for patients

http://www.aerotoxic.org/upload/medical-information/Practical-Guidance-for-Pilots-with-AS.pdf

http://www.aerotoxic.org/upload/medical-information/Aerotoxic-Syndrome-treatment-options.pdf

So basically stay away from the thng that's making you ill and lead a healthy lifestyle and you'll feel better. Sound advice.
 

Miss VocalCord

Senior Member.
I'm not sure, but it appears the aerotoxic syndrome does exits for a little longer (not questioning the fact if it is real or not at this moment)

There have been questions about it in the EU-parliament in 2011 and 2012
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2011-009668&language=EN
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2012-009573+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

and there is some setup for research it seems like from 2009:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/docs/npa/2009/A-NPA 2009-10.pdf

The answers from the EU literally say :
So there seems to be no evidence according the current research, however I don't think any of the people who think/experience this as a real danger want to be related to any of the chemtrail story.

The prohealth.nl company seems to be a commercial company doing all kind of testing, I wouldn't call it a scam right away, but it appears like a shady business ;).
 

mrfintoil

Senior Member.
I had this discussion with Roxy Lopez once. She also suggested jet lag is actually due to "chemtrail" exposure.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I have just receeived an email from Michel Mulder stating that Aerotoxic has got nothing to do with chemtrails. Max has recorded the conversation without his permission and he will be in contact with him.

Unfortunately at this time I can't post the email but I can forward it on request.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Jay, where are you getting your info about cabin air filters? Some airlines are allowed to completely remove the cabin air filters, thus leaving no filtration. I can only assume they have made some sort of agreement with the FAA in that case. This is an assumption on my part but cabin air filters are basically carbon filters and that's it. They are FAA/PMA so they are 10x what they should cost and the airlines want to eliminate them, I've experienced this with my airline, we flew a BAE-146, known as the AVRO-185, or the Bach jet. Every part of the aircraft smelled of jet fumes, and the cabin ventilation had carbon deposits, it was disgusting, our filters were removed.
The engines used in this were developed from helicopter gas turbines, and AFAIK lacked sophisticated bleed-air seals. It's a rugged aircraft, used on the Queen's Flight, known to have exceeded the speed of sound in a vertical dive without breaking up. Or pulling out...
 

Miss VocalCord

Senior Member.
There was a recent article in one of the bigger newspapers in the Netherlands about a pilot (Felderhof), who is sueing the KLM because of the aerotoxic syndrome. Michel Mulder is also mentioned in the article as connected to the Aviation Medical Consultation. ( http://www.avmed.in/ which seems to be India based) :
http://www.uu.nl/faculty/veterinary...013/augustus/Paginas/Gifpiloot_in_aanval.aspx


@Biggerdave
Good on you to contact him directly (I'm still a bit shy about opening up my real person on the internet, call me old-fashioned), although I'm afraid Max Bliss will see it as him being silenced by the powers that be once again...
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I see that this advocate for Aerotoxic Syndrome is planning a "Conspiracy Thriller" movie in the UK:
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1060..._filmed_to_uncover_air_contamination_scandal/

A former airline captain is filming a conspiracy thriller which he hopes will lift the lid on little-known aerotoxic syndrome.
Filmmaker Tristan Loraine, of Horsham, is producing the Erin Brokovich-style investigative feature about a quest to uncover the scandal of contaminated cabin air.
A Dark Reflection tells how passengers and cabin crew are being exposed to toxic engine fumes and its director hopes it could help change industry practices.
The former British Airways pilot said: “I’ve been campaigning on this issue for years and nothing has changed.
“Now we’re taking it to the public I think they will be outraged for being kept in the dark for all these years.
“The industry needs to wake up and deal with the issue.
“I’ve watched elderly and pregnant people walk off an aircraft and thought it’s a breach of their human rights that they haven’t been told they could be at risk.”
The fictional but fact-based film is being co-operatively made by volunteers with funding from unions, passenger groups and concerned aviation figures.

There is another association interested in this issue named Global Cabin Air Quality Executive GCAQE.
It looks to be mainly air transport unions. It is headed by Dr. Susan Michaelis, PhD from Australia:


Michaelis.jpg

She is selling her 2010 Doctoral Thesis on the subject for £175.00.


Michaelis is also featured in a 2011 movie by the same director as the "Conspiracy Thriller" above:

angel.jpg

The same director has also put out this film in 2011 which focuses on the controversy:
broken.jpg

In 2008, the same director also put out this film:

welcome.jpg

The brain cell death test looks to be only under development as of 2009. According to the developer Dr. Abou Dania it does not establish causality.

Currently, a researcher at the University of Washington Clement E. Furlong is collecting blood samples to be used for development of a diagnostic test which is designed to look for proteins which may have been modified by TCP exposure. I am getting the impression that this would be an indirect test, not a quantitative test for TCP amounts in the blood.

It looks to me like there is perhaps some sensationalism and/or profiteering involved in this controversy, but the issue is still unsolved and could indeed have some validity. It also looks like the issue has enough professionals involved to avoid the chemtrails hoax, especially since the aviation people in general have personal experience and specific knowledge of contrail behavior. Max may have poisoned the well with Dr. Mulder, but it might be helpful to compose a summary of what has been going on and distribute this to leading figures who might be approached by chemtrails advocates. Alternatively, we could just let whatever happens.
Suppose for instance that a shady part of the aerotoxic advocates does begin to accept the chemtrails support, what would that tell us and the broader aerotoxic community? This might actually have the effect of weeding out the bad eggs in that same community.

Any thoughts on this?

PS: During the late '70's I worked for GE as a Gas Turbine Field Service Engineer. I worked with a hydraulic/lubricating oil called Fyrquel which was intended for flame resistance but was found to have some contamination with PCB's. Exposure was unavoidable and I wasn't very careful in some cases. PCB's were just becoming considered harmful and the current version of Fyrquel is PCB free but contains TCP's so 30 years ago I may have had some exposure. I never noticed any effect and my brain my brain my brain my brain seems to still be working OK.o_O
 
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David Fraser

Senior Member.
Susan Michaelis is referenced and features in the Australian enquiry.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/cabin/epaaq/epaaq-entire-report.pdf

As for Dr Mulder I feel in conversation he has just gone along with Max. Health professionals tend to do that when first confronted with a "delusional" especially if it is not their field. From the pages I have been reading he is looking for a novel, or exotic, substance that may be a single key to the symptoms. That often means testing for obscure ailments as well. Given his prominance on court cases recently if gave any credence to chemtrails he would be testing.

As for the syndrome this really has the feel of the Gulf War Syndrome fiasco the the UK. All legal fees and medical fees had to be covered by the sufferers. All in all it was incredibly expensive even with some experts working gratis. That money has to be raised from somewhere and it seems the main burden is in the sufferer.
 
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justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
A PhD in Aircraft contaminated air?


I had to ask myself the same question...

I flew the 146 for 2 1/2 years under the Northwest Airlines logo. I have to agree the air quality was atrocious, as I've stated in other posts. However, I don't think this applies to most other aircraft. I've been on most all of the aircraft in the Delta Airlines fleet and notice only clean air, unlike the Bach jet. Once in a while you'll get a whiff of fumes related to oil or jet exhaust but it's very short lived. I've experience carbon monoxide poisoning and it's no fun, I seem to be extra sensitive to fumes as a result.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
There is definitely something to fear in high-temperature oils. Of course you get them in car gearboxes and final drives as well. They are also used as industrial heating fluids. I was once a hot press operator in an engineering plastics factory (where they made the Le Mans Ford GT40 bodies), and lost my job there when a slight leak of said fluids caused me to pass out as I was adjusting the press tool, and I pulled the operating lever as I fell down. Grrr. LOL.

Nobody, of course, was aware of such dangers at that time (1965). Maybe it accounts for the way I am I am I am right now. :)
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
It looks to me like there is perhaps some sensationalism and/or profiteering involved in this controversy, but the issue is still unsolved and could indeed have some validity. It also looks like the issue has enough professionals involved to avoid the chemtrails hoax, especially since the aviation people in general have personal experience and specific knowledge of contrail behavior. Max may have poisoned the well with Dr. Mulder, but it might be helpful to compose a summary of what has been going on and distribute this to leading figures who might be approached by chemtrails advocates. Alternatively, we could just let whatever happens.
Suppose for instance that a shady part of the aerotoxic advocates does begin to accept the chemtrails support, what would that tell us and the broader aerotoxic community? This might actually have the effect of weeding out the bad eggs in that same community.

Any thoughts on this?

Max is so far off the track with this it is not funny. Apart from the BAE146, the overwhelming number of cases of contamination occur either when the aircraft is at full thrust on takeoff, or when the seals in the APU are faulty when it is started... Neither thing happens at cruising altitude.

Max, this is another gaping hole in the story I am sure you will ignore for your own purposes. My fear however is that your paranoia will play right into the hands of those who wish to ignore the suffering of those afflicted, some of whom I count as very good friends. FFS, go and find some other syndrome to hijack....
 
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MikeC

Closed Account
FWIW I was a mechanic on BAe 146's operated by Ansett New Zealand in the late 80's-early 90's (Ansett operated them until the early 2000's, but I left at the end of 1994). I was a mechanic for about 6 months after they got them (working on brand spanking new a/c was soooooo much nicer than the old clapped out 737-100's and -200's we had before then!!)

After being a mechanic I moved to an office job as a planning engineer - translating the maintenance programme from BAe documents to ANZ work orders and assembling them into check packages. And after doing that for a couple of years I moved on again to become a Quality Assurance Engineer running the company's internal compliance audit programme as required by the (then) new CAANZ rule 145.

As I recall oil smells were a common occurrence - weekly at least. They were dealt with by doing a "hot bleed" - running the aircon at max temp on the ground for an hour or so to burn out any residual oil pooling in the ducts. The final fix was to replace the GTCP36-100 APU's with an upgraded -150 model. This replaced the faulty seal at the back of the compressor (IIRC) that allowed oil into the cabin air stream. I see 146's now have the option of a Sundstrand APU which hopefully doesn't have the same problem.
 

Jonathan Teatime

New Member
An article over at Gizmodo, poses this question and is reporting;
The article goes on to point the finger at exposure to the organophosphate known as tricresyl phosphate (TCP); a flame retardant additive in jet engine oil and hydraulic fluids.

The article continues here for those so inclined to click through on this.

I'd be interested to hear the views of our resident air crew.

One wonders how long it will take for the Chemies incorporate this into their beleif system, assuming all along that they haven't already done so :rolleyes:
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Willem Felderhof, is a former KLM pilot, and aerotoxic syndrome court case plaintiff ("Captain Felderhof" v "Royal Dutch Airlines"), and who is now interested in raw-food/meditation/spiritualist retreats, etc.
He also holds the idea of a (zionist ?) One World Government conspiracy, and was the organizer of 2015 "Open Mind" conference, in NL, eurpoe.

Felderhof wrote a letter, recently posted by Dane on his GW site.

Felderhof's beliefs in geoengineering, leads Dane to easily "ride-the-coat-tails" of Felderhof and aerotoxic syndrome (AS).
.....but for completely different reasons/causes.
Felderhof's claim is cabin toxicity is from TCP, while Dane's claim is it's from outside air from chemtrails at altitude.

About the Felderhof letter on Dane's page....
A lot of the letter is about his own opinions on a one-world-agenda. The rest, he speaks
vaguely but with certainty about geoengineering. No evidence is presented or even described in his letter.

They both believe in geoengineering, but the coat-tailing by Dane (and others) could be.....another opportunity to use the words together "pilot + whistle blower". That title/label works out quite good for Dane.

If Dane and Felderof are at odds with the source of AS, then Felderof might as well be: a pilot who got sick from a car, factory, or somewhere else.....and also happens to believe in geoengineering.
Felderof is a whistle blower for TCP, not geoengineering (at least not yet)....so the "whistle-blower" part is not applicable.

(in fairness, Dane never call him a "whistle-blower" in print, he lets Felderof type that. Also the article's comments reflect that the "whistle blower" part is important.)

Dane does not mention if Felderof is/could, be wrong. No surprise there.
Nonetheless, Dane probably wants to keep their similarities to "pilot and geoengineering believer".
The posted letter is peppered with images I assume are Dane's choice -- (one of a pylon drain) none are referenced by the letter writer.
The letter writer urges people to contact him, but no link provided.

Perhaps this statement from Felderof's letter, does make me question his judgement......
....or themselves.
.
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Well it seems Felderhof didn't feel willing to go public with his more "far-out" beliefs until after he had stopped flying, so it appears he resembles that remark.

But yes, I predict that he will be held up as the latest "proof of pilot whistleblowers", even though his claims have nothing whatsoever to do with chemtrails or geoengineering.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
When the airline I was working with was experiencing fumes in the cabin, the cause was well known - a leaking seal in the APU would allow oil to get into the air conditioning ducts. the oil would then evaporate into the hot air from the engine bleeds at some later stage.

the temporary "fix" was to run the aircon at full hot for 15 minutes each night to "burn out" any pooling oil.

the substantive fix was to replace het APU with an upgraded model.

the combustion is not the oil "burning" as fuel does in the combustion section of the engine - it is the oil being heated enough to "smoke" - as anyone with a car built by British Leyland will know all too well!!
 
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