Why do People Remember the Sky Being Bluer In the Past?

Mick West

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
People who think that there is something wrong with the world sometimes point to the sky and say it's different. It was bluer a decade ago, and certainly bluer when they were children.

Was it bluer? Probably not. Probably what they have is simply a memory of bluer skies, a memory that natuarally gets more intense with age, because that's what memories of color do. Look at the research:

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/josa/abstract.cfm?uri=josa-50-1-73

External Quote:
The memory colors of ten familiar, naturally occurring objects have been determined. Fifty observers chose their memory colors from an array of 931 Munsell color chips. The variability of the judgments is shown and their means are compared with the average chromaticities of the corresponding natural objects. The ten mean memory colors were all significantly different from the natural colors. Each memory color tended to be more characteristic of the dominant chromatic attribute of the object in question; grass was more green, bricks more red, etc. In most cases, saturation and lightness increased in memory.
And sky was bluer in your recollection. The colors in your memory tend to be brighter and more colorful than they are in reality, or in the photos you take.

contrailscience.com_skitch_color_reality_memory_20120327_194932.jpg


30 or 40 years ago our color memories were magnified by one of the the most popular film around at that time: Kodachrome. The way the film responded to colors gave them an overly saturated look. Blues looked bluer. But we did not mind, because that's how we remembered them. For us older folk, these are the holidays, the vacations of our youth.

contrailscience.com_skitch_kodachromereality_20120327_201441.jpg


(image source: http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2009/06/25/kodachrome_tourism/)

But over time the Kodachrome reinforces our color memory, and we start to think that indeed everything was more colorful in our childhood. The vibrancy of our past increases with the passing of time. The present naturally seems pale in comparison.

And it's not just memory - your color vision actually does fade with time.
http://www.allaboutvision.com/over60/vision-changes.htm
External Quote:

  • Decreased color vision. Cells in the retina that are responsible for normal color vision decline in sensitivity as we age, causing colors to become less bright and the contrast between different colors to be less noticeable.

    In particular, blue colors may appear faded or "washed out." While there is no treatment for this normal, age-related loss of color perception, you should be aware of this loss if your profession (e.g. artist, seamstress or electrician) requires fine color discrimination.
So with these two effects combined, it's no wonder people think the sky was bluer when they were younger.

[Update] There is some evidence of a slight whitening over the 20 years from 1996 to 2007, see post #73. However, it's does not seem like this would be something people would notice, with natural variation, and the other factors mentioned.
 
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Although [conspiracy theorists say] ... chemtrails make skies bluer

:cool:

External Quote:
Our intermittent so-called "blue sky" that millions of us have seen these past six months is, in fact, NOT a return to our real, blue, pre-Chemtrails sky that we had before this deliberately created nightmare began. This is another illusion.

According to Dr. Castle, this "new color blue is due to the chemical compounds Manganese di-Bromo di-Fluoro-Benzidine (salts). They are added to Chemtrails so that light is not reflected; but, rather, these compounds refract both light and dark. Therefore, it works the atmosphere into what is called 'a coherent phase fiber optics refraction' in a crystalline (the salts) blue material. So, the sky 'looks' blue; but actually it only has the refracted color of whatever color (bright or dark) is above it."

Dr. Castle told me yesterday, "the color is based on ultramarine blue/violet that has been micronized into aerosolized particulates and deployed into the open atmosphere." He notes: "This aerosol has 500 times more manganese and a huge level of a toxic dibromo-flouro-benzene compounds. This helps the aerosols stay aloft for longer periods of time, unlike the heavier barium and aluminum. This also has been tested; and has higher levels of arsenic and gallium, both of which have been independently tested by Arizona Skywatch and others."
 
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External Quote:
They are added to Chemtrails so that light is not reflected; but, rather, these compounds refract both light and dark.
What are the physics describing refraction of "dark"? Is dark not the absence of light? If the atmosphere used to reflect light, rather than refract it, was there perpetual darkness on Earth at the time? Is this where god stepped in and said "let there be light"? Didn't god really dig the light and determine it was good? So did god create chemtrails to bestow light upon the Earth in order for humans to quake before his image? If god created chemtrails to shed light upon the darkness...isn't that good?

So many questions... :rolleyes:
 
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Following on from Mick's memory comments, everyone probably remembers the famous James Bond scene in
"Dr No" (in fact one of the most famous sequences in cinema history) when Ursula Andress first emerges from the sea in a bikini in the Caribbean.

Who can forget the glorious blue Caribbean sky, sun-drenched beach , sun sparkling water and radiant Usula dripping wet in front of an ogling Sean Connery?

I'm pretty sure that's how most folks remember that scene, and it was mimicked by Halle Berry in "Casino Royale".

But go check an old copy of the film in any format and check if it matches the popular memory of the scene. The reality is far different.
That's what memory is like and why it's so unreliable.
 
"I can assure you my intentions are strictly honorable". :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3lAjyUUS1g

I've watched that scene about a dozen times in a row now still trying to catch a glimpse of the sky but all I seem to notice are those big Conchs of hers.

But cereally. I think most of those people who say all they remember are clear blue cloudless skies simply weren't paying much attention to the sky until recently. I've always been fascinated by weather and clouds so I've been paying attention to the sky for as long as I can remember. I recall hazy summer days, storm clouds, contrails...and I also remember perfectly clear blue skies all day were the exception rather than the norm not only growing up in Indiana but anywhere I've lived or visited. In fact, cloudless blue skies are rather boring, imho. Then again I am a certified member (#27984) of the cloud appreciation society. :o
 
The question I always ask these guys when they talk about the blue skies is why is it that for the last several decades Navy ships are painted "Haze Grey" instead of sky blue?

For some reason I never get an answer.
 
GregMc said:
Following on from Mick's memory comments, everyone probably remembers the famous James Bond scene in
"Dr No" (in fact one of the most famous sequences in cinema history) when Ursula Andress first emerges from the sea in a bikini in the Caribbean.

Who can forget the glorious blue Caribbean sky, sun-drenched beach , sun sparkling water and radiant Usula dripping wet in front of an ogling Sean Connery?

I'm pretty sure that's how most folks remember that scene, and it was mimicked by Halle Berry in "Casino Royale".

But go check an old copy of the film in any format and check if it matches the popular memory of the scene. The reality is far different.
That's what memory is like and why it's so unreliable.
Click to expand...

Here's the DVD version, and a paler version. I suspect the paler version is closer to reality that day.

contrailscience.com_skitch_dr_no_andress_20120402_164806.jpg


Of course, in both versions the sky is not especially blue, and nor is the sea.
 
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There ends up being a vast range of color reproductions of various things. This web site takes all the reproductions of a particular image it can find, then than creates a new image with various segments from the different reproductions

http://hint.fm/reproduction/

What is the "real" color?

contrailscience.com_skitch_21_Girls_with_Pearl_Earrings_20120402_180925.jpg


Color perception can be greatly influenced by context. Consider these illusions.

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/colourPerception/colourPerception.html

and

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/colourPerception/colourPerception2.html
 
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It varies by camera too. Lots of consumer cameras now default to more saturated colors, as it looks nicer. There was a period of years where digital cameras were on average a lot more muted than they are now, and compared to film. Camera settings make a huge difference, and often the more expensive the camera, the more boring (and realistic, but not as you remember it) the photo is.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/camera-adjustments.htm
upload_2013-8-18_13-55-22.png

upload_2013-8-18_13-55-29.png

External Quote:
Same hotel, same everything, different camera settings. First crappy shot: New $6,500 camera, as it came from the factory. Second photo: White Balance still on Auto, but set to A6 to make image warmer, Nikon Picture Control set to VIVID to pump colors, saturation set to +3 to pump colors more, and exposure compensation added to lighten to taste.
 
I took all the home photos. As long as the sun is behind me, the sky is brilliant blue. Sun behind the house = white sky. I have a $400 Nikon Point and Shoot.
 
I've painted many skies, from 40' tall backdrops to small paintings.
All of these were done indoors, so the sky blue paint I mix is from memory.
I will go outside to check my guesses. Of course over the years I've learned to get fairly accurate because I've done it so many times.

But that was not the case when I first started mixing "sky blue"....or anybody mixing paint for a typical "sky blue" for the first few times.
It is guessing, based on preconceived notions.

Generally I've found there are 3 big mistakes when people try to guess the color of a "clear blue" sky.
1) They guess way too dark .
2) and too saturated. (intense blue).
3) They do not realize how much "violet" there is in a "blue" sky.

Here I am speaking of people in the painting business and artists that should know........ and even they get it wrong, from "memory".
(.....think about the average person, they are even farther off when trying to guess.)

I think people have many notions of "sky color" from advertizements, TV and films....where colours are often "boosted" in software, or filters on camera lenses. (polarizing filters, graduated filters, etc)

Also, people tend to "remember" that glorious clear blue sky right after a 3-day rainstorm.....they "store" that image in their memories.
Sure, the rain has washed most of the airborne particulates away and it may indeed be ultra clear.....plus the damp ground prevents dust from being kicked-up temporarily.

But I think why it seems "so clear" after a 3-day storm......is the contrast. They were covered with cloud-cover for 3 days, and when the sun finally shines on a blue sky....it "seems" more intense blue, and they store that in memory.
 
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Color is a very hard thing to remember in any case. I used to work at a makeup counter. People would come in with a lipstick they wanted to match and unless you held theirs right next to it, it was impossible to do.
 
All the art/craft work I have done had given me a more acute sense of color. Years ago, I had a piece of grey plaid that I wanted to use as accents on a black tunic. After trips to at least 5 fabric stores, trying to find the right color of black (in a cotton or linen blend), I gave up and ended up with using it on a pink tunic, (it only took 2 stores to find the correct pink).

I accidentally discovered the pink glass that comes from Europe and (also most from China) uses a colorant that has a orange undertone, but the Japanese use one with a purple undertone.

Irish setter breeders will see red, chestnut and mahogany colors in Irish setters, and the mahogany ones can have red, blue or purple undertones. I had one dark mahogany setter with purple undertones that almost impossible to photograph (pre digital times) It took a professional show photographer several tries to get a decent representation of him. The camera saw him a black dog.
 
Here is an interesting "memory" of past skies from facebook:

External Quote:
Jeff SkonickiIn the first place. 15 years ago the sky was a deep blue and the sun was yellow. Your pix too me just show me how accustomed everyone has become. For the fact. Just cause you walk outside and see no lines in the sky it's getting better. No too me it's like in your pix. The sun is white from residual spray and the sky is a lite lite blue. Left over high altitude spray. So ya I'm sad about that. The sky should be a deep blue. The sun should be yellow. Period
https://www.facebook.com/carlyhill....comment_id=8705794&offset=0&total_comments=27


Yellow sun? Yellow sun occurs when there are particulates refracting the light. When it is really clear the sun looks blinding white. Its been so clear here in Central FL the last few days that you can see the moon in full day light. It almost reads like his memory of the sky is from pictures many children drew in kindergarden with the solid blue sky and the wedge of yellow sun in the corner of the page.

He was responding to this pic from GnarlyCarly:

3ae77b62f41faa72f253a205ba6e5776.jpg


The colors in that photo are pretty true (Carly and I are practically neighbors). Sky looks appropriately blue to me.
 
scombrid said:
It almost reads like his memory of the sky is from pictures many children drew in kindergarden with the solid blue sky and the wedge of yellow sun in the corner of the page.
Click to expand...

I think this might literally be true in some cases. The sun is too bright to look at, so we rely on standard conventions of what it is "supposed" to look like. Since you can't draw a super bright light on white paper, people have adopted the convention of a yellow or orange sun

Clip art search for "sun"
sun_clip_art__Google_Search_20140121_085326.jpg


And here's the clip art results for "sky"
sky_clip_art__Google_Search_20140121_085433.jpg
 
Co-incidentally, yesterday afternoon, travelling back home I noticed the sun through the trees, seemingly larger and whiter than I'm used to seeing it. It struck me just how white it was. First time this happened in my decades of existence.
 
Mick West said:
I think this might literally be true in some cases. The sun is too bright to look at, so we rely on standard conventions of what it is "supposed" to look like. Since you can't draw a super bright light on white paper, people have adopted the convention of a yellow or orange sun

Clip art search for "sun"
Click to expand...

It's quite amazing that most of the "clipart sky"......the colours are very turquoise blue (a greenish blue).....when in fact the actual daylight sky is a reddish blue (violet blue).

Greenish blue seems "warmer".....reddish blue seems "cooler".
 
Chew said:
Mick, can you make this into a quiz? When someone shows up claiming the sky used to be bluer we can tell them to take a quiz to test their color memory. It would have to be timed so they couldn't Google it. It could grade their performance on how close they were by RGB.
Click to expand...

Not easily, unfortunately. At least not within the site. Possibly there exist make-your-own quiz sites?
 
I doubt the initial question ( blue vs pale) is available as an on-line exercise. Too may variables and atmospheric conditions would preclude a reasonable answer.
There would be no answer, to any satisfaction.
A haze-filled sky would seem more semi-white.........a cirrus-filled sky would seem whiter......and both together would seem whitest.
So where is any starting point ?....
One would have to prove that "haze"....is a false notion, and that cirrus is but a modern phenomenon.
 
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Stupid said:
I doubt the initial question ( blue vs pale) is available as an on-line exercise. Too may variables and atmospheric conditions would preclude a reasonable answer.
There would be no answer, to any satisfaction.
A haze-filled sky would seem more semi-white.........a cirrus-filled sky would seem whiter......and both together would seem whitest.
So where is any starting point ?....
One would have to prove that "haze"....is a false notion, and that cirrus is but a modern phenomenon.
Click to expand...

I like the Prokudin-Gorskii photos for this. Over 100 years old, several color photos with hazy sky in them.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/08/russia_in_color_a_century_ago.html

a4105507c53b02b74af42eade85e107a.jpg

bbac415985b7534fde93113495bb6987.jpg

6cf4e0ea22d5c43514c0c9e533405f6d.jpg
 
Beautiful photos. I wasn't aware of these before. The linked article explains how the process works, with exposures for the three primary colors taken in quick succession with filters. You can see in the first picture that it creates some color distortion in the waves, as they moved a bit between exposures.
 
Comparing present day sky to photos is unrealistic because of filters used in photography. I remember my old 35mm camera days, I carried around a polarizing and uv filter just to make the sky bluer.
 
Interesting color wheel for the sky from 1787
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...once-measured-the-blueness-of-the-sky/370821/
11722cd2851985a1c29027a6428c4777.jpg

External Quote:

The sky is blue: this is a universal truth, even if it may also be, to a large extent, an arbitrary one. Which is in part why scientists have long sought to put numbers—metrics—to the sky's blueness. Long before little Alma Deutscher came along, there was a guy named Horace-Bénédict de Saussure. The naturalist and inventor—he created, among other devices, the horsehair hygrometer, a magnetometer, and an anemometer—was obsessed with the measurement of nature, and in particular with the color of sky. He wondered why, on some days, the sky seemed paler in its hue—white, as Alma might say. And why, on others, it seemed saturated with color.

So Saussure took advantage of the best color-perception aid he could imagine: his eyes. He created a device called a "cyanometer"—a kind of modified color wheel that contained every shade of blue that could be seen in the sky. He then assigned colors to those numbers, ranging from near-white (0) to near-black (52), with a host of blues in between. The idea was to hold up the device at a fixed distance from the observer's eye and then use it to determine the color of the sky at a particular moment.

Saussure had a hunch that the blueness of the sky had to do with the water vapor in the atmosphere. He wanted to test that hunch. In 1787, he embarked on an expedition to Mont Blanc (bringing with him 18 guides and a servant). At the mountain's summit, he measured the color of the sky—and documented a shade of 39 degrees blue, the deepest he'd seen.
 
Chew said:
Mick, can you make this into a quiz? When someone shows up claiming the sky used to be bluer we can tell them to take a quiz to test their color memory. It would have to be timed so they couldn't Google it. It could grade their performance on how close they were by RGB.
Click to expand...
OT (sorry) you should make one of those quizzes on FB everyone loves called "What type of contrail are you?"
 
I've digitized hundreds of old family photos from 35mm slides from the 1960s and 1970s. There is in general a very vivid oversaturated look to all the colours, not just the sky. Primary colours likes reds, yellows, greens, blues, etc. just pop out. Which is actually great for photos of your childhood holidays, etc. No-one wants dull grey photos of that kind of thing. I suspect that the film makers did that deliberately, kind of like how old Technicolor movies have a very vivid saturation to the colours.
 
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