When Torture Kills: Ten Murders In US Prisons In Afghanistan

Oxymoron

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Is this fact or a Conspiracy Theory? If it is not 'fact'... why?

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/20...lls-ten-murders-in-us-prisons-in-afghanistan/

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/20...guantanamo-the-declaration-of-ahmed-al-darbi/

Statement, made by Guantánamo prisoner Ahmed al-Darbi on July 1, 2009, was originally posted by the U.C. Davis Center for the Study of Human Rights in the Americas, a University of California research project, coordinated by Almerindo Ojeda,

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/20...lls-ten-murders-in-us-prisons-in-afghanistan/
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
In what sense is it a Conspiracy Theory. If there is a conspiracy it is only to protect individuals from prosecution. I would think it is only the incredible naive think abuses do not happen. The only issue is as to what level.
 

Mick West

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I'm sure some of it is fact. There are probably various degrees of evidence that supports the various accusations. But it's well known that abuse happens. It's well known that people are actually tortured, even if there's an attempt to legitimize it as "advanced interrogation techniques".

Extreme abuses happen, sometimes people go to jail for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Graner

It's certainly a big problem.
 

Oxymoron

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In what sense is it a Conspiracy Theory. If there is a conspiracy it is only to protect individuals from prosecution. I would think it is only the incredible naive think abuses do not happen. The only issue is as to what level.

I don't know. I have seen, like most others, the reports of torture but they are always sanitised by saying 'oh it's only water boarding which is just 'bending the rules' a bit and it hardly ever happens' and justified as 'an means to an end'.

People do not seem to appreciate the extent that this goes on and that so many people have been murdered under this scheme.

Obama took office under the promise that he was going to close Guantanamo but soon backtracked.

There are many many accounts of people giving false information in an attempt to save themselves from being tortured and then this information is regurgitated as fact by the media, to justify keeping the war machine going and imposing ever tighter constraints and surveillance on the general public, (for their protection) and lets face it... many say "yes yes, protect us by surveiling everyone... we have nothing to hide" little realising they are giving absolute power to the government and that one day, they could be the victim.

That seems like a major conspiracy to me.
 

Mick West

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Well, consider that a lot more people have died in US local jails and state prisons (4,150 in 2010, mostly attributable to natural causes), the public just does not really care on average. But I think you'll find there are a lot of people who do care, there's just not a lot they can do about it.

I think if you want to classify it as a conspiracy, you need to focus more on specific cases, and list the actual evidence. Unfortunately eyewitness accounts from other prisoners are not going to be considered viable - especially when we are told that Al Queda specifically instructed its members to make claims of torture whenever they are captured.
 

Oxymoron

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I'm sure some of it is fact. There are probably various degrees of evidence that supports the various accusations. But it's well known that abuse happens. It's well known that people are actually tortured, even if there's an attempt to legitimize it as "advanced interrogation techniques".

Extreme abuses happen, sometimes people go to jail for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Graner

It's certainly a big problem.

It is a big problem Mick and it appears to come from the top.

 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I know Andy Worthington's work well and I do respect his intergrity, but he does have a habit of bias and presenting facts that may exaggerate the issue. That's why I mentioned the scale of the issue.

I think if there was a conspiracy theory the only one valid is the one that morality stays constant during "war" and between combatants. Covering up these crimes maintains that illusion but I see it as also protecting the population from what "war" is. That's if they care. Mmm starting to ramble now.
 

Oxymoron

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I know Andy Worthington's work well and I do respect his intergrity, but he does have a habit of bias and presenting facts that may exaggerate the issue. That's why I mentioned the scale of the issue.

I think if there was a conspiracy theory the only one valid is the one that morality stays constant during "war" and between combatants. Covering up these crimes maintains that illusion but I see it as also protecting the population from what "war" is. That's if they care. Mmm starting to ramble now.

Yes I see where you are coming from, (I think). 'It's easy to cover things up when people do not want to know'.

Guess they won't like this then.

 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Yes I see where you are coming from, (I think). 'It's easy to cover things up when people do not want to know'

It's a case of yes and no at the same time. I have to be careful otherwise I will end up on a lecture on the morality of war. But to get to the point, unfortunately these abuses are a fact of "war". I don't think governments hide the fact they happen but they don't go out if their way to tell people. At the end if the day you could even question the validity if the Geneva Convention if only one side is signed up.

I still do wonder as to the conspiracy theory aspect.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I think I need to go read the book I have on Gitmo--I think it is something like 'Behind the Fence'. I had forgotten I had it (I bought it along with a stack of others) and it didn't get shelved. My puppy found the sack it was in and 'retrieved' it the other night, along with others
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I think I need to go read the book I have on Gitmo--I think it is something like 'Behind the Fence'. I had forgotten I had it (I bought it along with a stack of others) and it didn't get shelved. My puppy found the sack it was in and 'retrieved' it the other night, along with others

Please read some of Andy Worthington's stuff. For the UK it is the Battle of the Beanfield and the moving on of travelling folk. But I will say. Anyone came on our land was safe.
 

Oxymoron

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In what sense is it a Conspiracy Theory. If there is a conspiracy it is only to protect individuals from prosecution.

I think that is a significant part of many CT's. For it to be a legitimate CT, there would need to be some form of 'illegality' or immoral subterfuge. In this case we are discussing, (in my view), the illegality of the torture and murder and the consequent cover up... which can include inappropriately minimal sentencing.

I would think it is only the incredible naive think abuses do not happen. The only issue is as to what level.

It would appear that abuses go on daily at a high level of excess and also with the knowledge of the highest levels of command and responsibility.

If we are to employ these methods, (which I am not advocating), at least lets be open about it rather than pretend we are morally superior and it is only the bad guys that resort to this.
 

Mick West

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It would appear that abuses go on daily at a high level of excess and also with the knowledge of the highest levels of command and responsibility.

If we are to employ these methods, (which I am not advocating), at least lets be open about it rather than pretend we are morally superior and it is only the bad guys that resort to this.

What are the evidence that these abuses are ongoing? The examples seem to refer to a period of time 5-12 years ago. There's been a lot of discussion of torture since then, and it seems generally recognized now that it's a bad idea. Why would people be using it?

Check out the .mil opinions on torture - they all pretty much don't like it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=use+of+torture+in+the+US++site:.mil
 

Oxymoron

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What are the evidence that these abuses are ongoing? The examples seem to refer to a period of time 5-12 years ago. There's been a lot of discussion of torture since then, and it seems generally recognized now that it's a bad idea. Why would people be using it?

Check out the .mil opinions on torture - they all pretty much don't like it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=use+of+torture+in+the+US++site:.mil

Yes that is all to the good and admirable that so many are trying to eradicate it.

However, how do we know it is not still going on undercover despite protestations to the contrary due to the bad publicity.

''Torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.” President Bush, 27 January 2005.

A bald faced lie!

http://www.revcom.us/a/1271/bush-torture-directive.htm

Hopefully it is the case, that it is not now ongoing but I have my doubts and we shall see.

I think this type of thing is underpinning many conspiracy theories. It shows the lengths that government will go to, to perpetrate and then cover up what they have done. I think many people realise the significance that 'they are not exempt' and the government 'cannot be trusted'.
 

Oxymoron

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Day 36...Gitmo hunger strikes are ongoing, allegedly involving over 100 detainees but with the U.S admitting 14.
86 of whom have been cleared for release!

It appears to be a rerun of the 2005 hunger strikes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantánamo_Bay_hunger_strikes

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/15149-us-acknowledges-14-on-hunger-strike-at-guantanamo-prison

http://rt.com/usa/guantanamo-hunger-strike-expands-359/




 

Oxymoron

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I think if you want to classify it as a conspiracy, you need to focus more on specific cases, and list the actual evidence. Unfortunately eyewitness accounts from other prisoners are not going to be considered viable - especially when we are told that Al Queda specifically instructed its members to make claims of torture whenever they are captured.

Ok lets focus on the Dilawar case. We have the detailed account above, (which, if true, is horrendous by any standards), but you question the validity because of the source,(being a fellow inmate and allegedly a 'terrorist/enemy combatant').

So is there a conspiracy and if so what is it?

I suggest the conspiracy is i) 'to carry out torture/murder in secret', ii) protect the torturers/murderers and the people who authorised the torture murder from any or appropriate due penalty commensurate with the crime , iii) to mislead the public by covering up systemic torture and murder.

The Facts

Bush and Cheyne authorised torture under the guise of 'enhanced interrogation' and justified it as legitimate 'ends justify the means'.

Bush denies use of torture.
Dilawar died in Gitmo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_victim)
It was initially passed off as 'natural causes'

His interrogators/torturers, believed him to be innocent.

And people wonder why there are rumours and fears of FEMA death camps?
 
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Oxymoron

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News blackout on Gitmo hunger strike. Americans just don't know from TV news and it has not been on U.K news either... Wonder why?

 

Mick West

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News blackout on Gitmo hunger strike. Americans just don't know from TV news and it has not been on U.K news either... Wonder why?

Asking people on the street is not evidence that something is "hidden from the american public"

Did you even check?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...a2f102-9afc-11e2-a941-a19bce7af755_story.html
 
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Oxymoron

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Asking people on the street is not evidence that something is "hidden from the american public"

Did you even check?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...a2f102-9afc-11e2-a941-a19bce7af755_story.html

I said TV News, as did RT. Yes I did check, I went into my CT search engine and looked and there is no news on any major Western, English speaking TV station that I could find, or apparently you either on your CIA search engine. :)
 
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Mick West

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I said TV News, as did RT. Yes I did check, I went into my CT search engine and looked and there is no news on any major Western, English speaking TV station that I could find, or apparently you either on your CIA search engine. :)

CBS news has been following the story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57577182/11-years-in-guantanamo-without-trial-or-charges/

And more people get their news online than from TV, so what's your point?

(I'm no Guantamano fan, I think many of the people there are probably innocent, some are known to be innocent, and it should have been shut down, and people should ge trails. But that's a separate issue,)
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I have been following it for several weeks.

The problem we have with quite a few of the prisoners still in Gitmo, is that if we just send them home, they will be tortured or imprisoned. We are trying to find countries that will take them. The Chinese Muslims are a major problem.
 

Oxymoron

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CBS news has been following the story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57577182/11-years-in-guantanamo-without-trial-or-charges/

And more people get their news online than from TV, so what's your point?

(I'm no Guantamano fan, I think many of the people there are probably innocent, some are known to be innocent, and it should have been shut down, and people should ge trails. But that's a separate issue,)

My point is as already stated, there is an observable lack of TV coverage amounting to a news blackout on the Gitmo hunger strikes. The only link you provide does not even mention the Gitmo hunger strikes, which appears to pretty much conclusively proves my point.

88 of the approx remaining 150 have been declared innocent and cleared for release years ago. Apparently 'they are not being released as 'it cannot be guaranteed that they are not a threat to the U.S in the future''.

Excuse my cynicism but does that rationale not apply to literally everyone?

The 'News' lol, should include matters of importance. The fact that this is not reported on National TV News suggests a cover up or that 'The American Gulag system' is of no importance. People should not need to hunt for such news on on the internet. They didn't have to hunt the internet to be told how OBL was behind 9/11 or how Iraq had WMD's.
 

Oxymoron

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I have been following it for several weeks.

Interesting, what news source do you use?

The problem we have with quite a few of the prisoners still in Gitmo, is that if we just send them home, they will be tortured or imprisoned. We are trying to find countries that will take them. The Chinese Muslims are a major problem.

That is amazing. These innocent people are fighting to be released from Gitmo imprisonment and torture in an attempt to be imprisoned and tortured elsewhere and the nice American government are protecting them from themselves. Nice, can you back that up... how many ... who?
 

Mick West

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The 'News' lol, should include matters of importance. The fact that this is not reported on National TV News suggests a cover up or that 'The American Gulag system' is of no importance. People should not need to hunt for such news on on the internet. They didn't have to hunt the internet to be told how OBL was behind 9/11 or how Iraq had WMD's.

There is an element of truth in what you are saying, but the Guantanamo situation is very far from a news blackout. It's just not compelling TV news. But there's a large amount of news about the story, including TV news - CBS HAS been following the story, I linked you to a story that's part of a series about Guantanamo, which is focussing on individuals.

Hunger strikes are just not interesting. People go on hunger strikes all the time.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
News blackout on Gitmo hunger strike. Americans just don't know from TV news and it has not been on U.K news either... Wonder why?

Such broad generalizations are the hallmark of Oxy's MO.

Not only is he wrong but he seems to believe TV is where most Americans get their news.

Approximately 6% of the country watches any of the 3 main network news broadcasts- (22 million out of 315 million)..30yrs ago it was over 50%

http://stateofthemedia.org/2012/network-news-the-pace-of-change-accelerates/

This story appeared on TV news:

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/03/30/hunger-strikers-determined-to-leave-guantanamo-one-way-or-the-other/


..nevermind that it was in the New York Times over 2 weeks ago..and 3 more times since:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/us/hunger-strike-cases-surge-at-guantanamo.html?_r=0
 

Oxymoron

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Such broad generalizations are the hallmark of Oxy's MO.

Not only is he wrong but he seems to believe TV is where most Americans get their news.

Approximately 6% of the country watches any of the 3 main network news broadcasts- (22 million out of 315 million)..30yrs ago it was over 50%

http://stateofthemedia.org/2012/network-news-the-pace-of-change-accelerates/

This story appeared on TV news:

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/03/30/hunger-strikers-determined-to-leave-guantanamo-one-way-or-the-other/


..nevermind that it was in the New York Times over 2 weeks ago..and 3 more times since:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/us/hunger-strike-cases-surge-at-guantanamo.html?_r=0

Thanks for finding that and msnbc did a very good report on it.

I guess you'll be writing to your congressman to say how disgusted you are that the U.S is running this Gulag. Sounded like the presenter might. Who knows; the BBC may even do a TV report next on the News.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Hunger strikes are just not interesting. People go on hunger strikes all the time.
Reminds me of that bit in Cosmopolis when they drive by the self-immolation.
cosmopolis-stills2.jpg
"It's not original."
 

Oxymoron

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The question is why didn't YOU find that...instead of making false accusations?

The 'thanks' were for finding 'the needle in the haystack'... well done.

There is nothing false about the allegation, (which was made by RT BTW), it is true. One or God forbid TWO even TV mentions does not mean there is not a news blackout unless you wish to interpret it absolutely literally. This stuff is a disgrace to mankind and should be on the Nightly News with updates and inquiries.

Perhaps they ran it once to cover themselves legally, (the government that is), and so 'people like you' could 'on cue' say 'OF COURSE IT ISN'T BEING COVERED UP... TO SAY DIFFERENT IS A LIE ... NO ONE IS INTERESTED'.

And as for 'it is inappropriate to ask the 'man in the street', if they know about it', as evidence that people are being kept in the dark... what do you offer as an alternative?
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
There is nothing false about the allegation,

What??

You said there was a news blackout- there is not- not on TV or anywhere else. You were wrong and your allegation demonstrably false.

That the evening news doesn't match your coverage priorities doesn't mean its being censored.
 

Mick West

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The 'thanks' were for finding 'the needle in the haystack'... well done.

There is nothing false about the allegation, (which was made by RT BTW), it is true. One or God forbid TWO even TV mentions does not mean there is not a news blackout unless you wish to interpret it absolutely literally. This stuff is a disgrace to mankind and should be on the Nightly News with updates and inquiries.

Perhaps they ran it once to cover themselves legally, (the government that is), and so 'people like you' could 'on cue' say 'OF COURSE IT ISN'T BEING COVERED UP... TO SAY DIFFERENT IS A LIE ... NO ONE IS INTERESTED'.

And as for 'it is inappropriate to ask the 'man in the street', if they know about it', as evidence that people are being kept in the dark... what do you offer as an alternative?

A statistically significant survey. RT is a strongly biased media outlet, and it's very easy to interview people in the street, and then pick only the answers that match what you are setting out to prove.

There are thousands of stories you could say there's a "news blackout" on, based on your criteria. Network TV news only covers a few stories per day (probably only 5% of what online media covers), and it only reaches a small percentage of the population.

And why is a Guantanamo hunger strike major news again? They seem to get quite a reasonable amount of coverage.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...amo-hunger-strike-edges-18808345#.UV3NH6uwwf4
 

Oxymoron

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What??

You said there was a news blackout- there is not- not on TV or anywhere else. You were wrong and your allegation demonstrably false.

That the evening news doesn't match your coverage priorities doesn't mean its being censored.

What a surprise... you interpret one measly TV item on this huge human rights subject as 'there is no TV news blackout'. Way to go.

Your 'plausible deniability' looks well suspicious and deceitful to me.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
What a surprise... you interpret one measly TV item on this huge human rights subject as 'there is no TV news blackout'. Way to go.

Your 'plausible deniability' looks well suspicious and deceitful to me.



What a surprise- you counter the fact that you were wrong with ad hominem attacks
 

Oxymoron

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A statistically significant survey. RT is a strongly biased media outlet, and it's very easy to interview people in the street, and then pick only the answers that match what you are setting out to prove.

There are thousands of stories you could say there's a "news blackout" on, based on your criteria. Network TV news only covers a few stories per day (probably only 5% of what online media covers), and it only reaches a small percentage of the population.

And why is a Guantanamo hunger strike major news again? They seem to get quite a reasonable amount of coverage.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...amo-hunger-strike-edges-18808345#.UV3NH6uwwf4

Bias from news media? mmmm...

Yep... no one is really interested in American Gulags and torture anymore... it's so usual it's passe.

So what do you think would be a better way of finding out what people are aware of?
 

Mick West

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Oxymoron

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SR1419

Senior Member.
What a surprise... you interpret one measly TV item on this huge human rights subject as 'there is no TV news blackout'. Way to go.

Your 'plausible deniability' looks well suspicious and deceitful to me.



One measly TV item?

CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/in...rlos-warner-guantanamo-bay.cnn?iref=allsearch

CBS News:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22s6Z4n7wVo

the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p015whcr/Newshour_Guantanamo_hunger_strike/

The Guardian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nfV6iKVYdY

HuffPo live- (I think this may be web only)

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/ar...lure-to-close-prison/514b90532b8c2a7e6700018e

ABC News (AU):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r43aOLAIVkE
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
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