War.gov/UFO - Department of War Releases UAP Files - 2026 Release 1

"Me: They should release the data and research that the UAPTF and UFOlogists claim exists or confirm that it doesn't exist, so that it can be debunked."

Let's role play

Release the video of you saying you owe me 1000 pounds.
Maybe my english isn't good enough to express what I meant to say with "or confirm that it doesn't exist". I just meant that they need to clearly communicate that it doesn't exists and give an explanation, backed up with whatever documentation exists, to why the other side is wrong. Like in a courtroom.

There is some difference between me and USG, it is a bureaucracy which document things. If Person X claim that there is a craft hidden at location Y there is probably a lot about his claim that can be backed up or debunked. Such as in the case of Lazar. He claimed that he had an education for the job, it was revealed that he did not.

And before someone tries to take another round in the loop of counter-arguments: Again, they need to say as much as they can or give allowance for the person to reveal what is necessary, if there is some USAP or similar involved. Whatever USG can reveal or not, they need to have an open and honest communication. Right now they aren't even denying the claims at all. Just silently allowing the accusations to go on, or at times doing something half-assed to try to appease the critics (which makes it worse).
 
then they need to confirm that,
Why do we have to confirm that the U.S. government doesn't have secret proof of UFOs? Should we also prove that they don't have evidence of Bigfoot or unicorns? And how on earth do you think it would be possible to prove such a thing? The only way to do that would be to declassify everything ever recorded by the Pentagon (and every other government agency). And even then, people could still claim that the government is hiding things from us.

Based on our current understanding of the UAP phenomenon, we have no real reason to believe we're dealing with anything other than ordinary objects, clutter, or sensor malfunctions. What exactly is the government supposed to disclose? We see videos of small dots that sometimes look like birds and behave like birds, but some of the on-screen data is redacted. Should we demand access to that classified data simply because, even though everything suggests they're birds, they could still be aliens? We don't need to present evidence that space ghosts aren't playing hide-and-seek with the U.S. Navy. It's up to the people making those claims to provide the evidence.
 
I just think we have to agree to disagree on this point. Personally, I don't think we "need the data and the research." It's not about proving or disproving alien visitations. It's about disproving individual pieces of "evidence" put forward by believers.

The UFO crowd often argues, "ET is here—just look at all this evidence." That's why we have to study this "evidence" piece by piece, since a hundred lousy videos are no better proof than one lousy video.

But as a skeptic, I will never stand on the barricades demanding more evidence of UFOs. It's up to the people making all sorts of silly claims to present the evidence.
Ok, we have different ideas of what a sceptic is, fair enough.

But I should add the fatted part to the loop. Maybe I do that later.
 
Again, they need to say as much as they can or give allowance for the person to reveal what is necessary, if there is some USAP or similar involved. Whatever USG can reveal or not, they need to have an open and honest communication. Right now they aren't even denying the claims at all. Just silently allowing the accusations to go on, or at times doing something half-assed to try to appease the critics (which makes it worse).


That is an interesting point, what I take away from it may be different from what you intended, though!

I think we need to consider,

doing something half-assed to try to appease the critics (which makes it worse).

I'd ask, "Is there anything that the government could do that would NOT be interpreted by the believers as a half-assed effort to appease the believers?" Other than saying "Yeah, we know all about the UFO aliens (or time travelers, or whatever) and have been hiding it, here is the proof that Big UFO was right all along!" I suspect ANYTHING will be viewed as hiding the good stuff. And they can't come out with that proof unless it exists.

My evidence for that reaction from believers is the history of disclosure over decades which always disclosed "we don't have nor are we aware of evidence," and which is always dismissed as just the government covering up the "good stuff."

Related topic already referenced above -- Would it make the job of debunkers easier if they didn't redact the "black boxed" stuff on the ATFLIR display when they release yet another balloon or bird or distant plane that is too far away to resolve? Sure, but would that convince the true believers, and the Big UFO leadership making a living off of this stuff, and the media outlets and online influencers using it to attract views? I'd say no, and I'll support that by pointing out that Go Fast and Gimbal are still the go-to cases for illutrating articles about UFOs/UAP, in spite of the fact that all the graphics and numbers and such are right there, unredacted, and made debunking claims about these videos easier. (Not easy, some smart folks did a lot of work to tease out information from those numbers and graphics, but easier.)

SO... if having that sort of info makes no difference to the beleivers, I'm not sure what the value is of releasing it. I wouldn't oppose it, to the extent it can be done without risks to national security. But it would not accomplish anything.

------------------------------------------

In terms of engaging with Big UFO, from the point of view of the government or military, there are two tactics to dealing with a sealioning* irritant or others who insist not just on answers, but on answers that confirm what they want to believe -- you can engage them, but this puts you into an unending confrontation from which the only escape is to eventually disengage, at which point they say your disengagement proves the sealion was right all along, OR never engage in the first place, and let them say your refusal to engage proves the sealions right! Either way, you wind up in the same place, the latter tactic saves you a lot of time and agravation!

(The Governemnt appears to have chosen a middle path, with some engagement which wastes less time and energy than full engagement... but will still lead to the same place. What the sealions claim in the end is not dependent on what their target does.)


*For any that are new to the term: Sealioning: A tactic where someone harasses others by relentlessly demanding evidence and explanations for their statements, all while maintaining a facade of polite, reasonable debate. The goal is to exhaust the target, derail the conversation, and force them to look unreasonable when they finally refuse to engage. In my view, Big UFO is in many ways a herd of sealions.
 
I was thinking about this being an "unknown" phenomena (stuff in the sky/sea/space). Surely someone like Elon/Jeff/insert multi-billionaire name here would have jumped on to this? Why wouldn't they have setup satellites, cameras, sensors, whatever to track/record/follow these unknown things.

The amount of money that could be extracted from an "unknown" tech would surely attract them. Either it's government tech and they know to not be involved or it's a conspiracy that involves alien tech, government and countless ultra wealthy people.

I'd be interested to know what Elon has said previously about UAP's/aliens etc. If it's vague and pointless, it would seem more government tech. If he show's a genuine interest and goes in depth about his thoughts etc. then I still think it might be government tech :D

The more you think about it, it just seems impossible that multiple decades and countless people across government and public have never shown clear anything. Then you fold in misinformation and it just becomes actually impossible to understand what is going on.
 
Maybe my english isn't good enough to express what I meant to say with "or confirm that it doesn't exist". I just meant that they need to clearly communicate that it doesn't exists and give an explanation, backed up with whatever documentation exists, to why the other side is wrong. Like in a courtroom.

In English we call that "proving a negative", something that can't really be done. In various subjects like UFOs and the paranormal, those who make claim often use this rhetorical argument to shift the burden of proof from the claimant to the skeptic.

Bigfoot is the classic example. I can show you some fuzzy photos, some dubious footprints and a bunch of stories about people claiming to see Bigfoot. Then I demand that you refute this evidence and "prove" there is no Bigfoot. Something you can't do. You can point out that the evidence for the existence of Bigfoot is inconclusive, unreliable and often misunderstood. You can point out that the positive evidence for Bigfoot, like a fossil record, DNA, and bodily remains are absent, but you can't "prove" Bigfoot does not exist, just that there is little to no evidence that he does.

As you can't prove Bigfoot does not exist, I can now claim victory and proclaim Bigfoot real, with little to no evidence. I've transferred the burden of proof from my claim to your refuting of my claim. This is the same thing that happens in the UFO world and I think you've fallen victim to this mentality.

It is NOT the government's job to prove UFOs do not exist and they are not hiding them. It's the whistle-blowers job to provide evidence and prove their claim of UFOs. Note, many of these whistle-blowers, like Grusch and Elizondo resort to the same response about classified data when pushed for evidence for their claims. They can't share what they know, because it's classified.

And lastly, the government did deny the claims:

External Quote:

AARO found no evidence that any USG investigation, academic-sponsored research, or official review panel has confirmed that any sighting of a UAP represented extraterrestrial technology. All investigative efforts, at all levels of classification, concluded that most sightings were ordinary objects and phenomena and the result of misidentification. Although not the focus of this report, it is worthwhile to note that all official foreign UAP investigatory efforts to date have reached the same general conclusions as USG investigations.
External Quote:
AARO found no empirical evidence for claims that the USG and private companies have been reverse-engineering extraterrestrial technology. AARO determined, based on all information provided to date, that claims involving specific people, known locations, technological tests, and documents allegedly involved in or related to the reverse-engineering of extraterrestrial technology, are inaccurate. Additional claims will be addressed in VoluтеII.
Note, this included tracking down specific programs named by whistle-blowers:

External Quote:
AARO successfully located the USG and industry programs, officials, companies, executives, and documents identified by interviewees. In many cases, the interviewees named authentic USG classified programs well-known and understood to those appropriately accessed to them in the Executive Branch and Legislative Branch; however, the interviewees mistakenlyassociated these authentic USG programs with alien and extraterrestrial activity. AARO has reached the following, high confidence conclusions related to:
The agency Congress set up to answer the claims of the UFO people, succinctly answered the claims. There is no evidence for the claims, aside from some misunderstandings. IF there is no data backing up the UFO claims, then there is no data to share, in a courtroom or anywhere else.

The ball is back in the UFOlogist court. They need to show evidence.
 
It is NOT the government's job to prove UFOs do not exist and they are not hiding them. It's the whistle-blowers job to provide evidence and prove their claim of UFOs. Note, many of these whistle-blowers, like Grusch and Elizondo resort to the same response about classified data when pushed for evidence for their claims. They can't share what they know, because it's classified.


The ball is back in the UFOlogist court. They need to show evidence.
Agreed 100%.
 
Then they need to... ...give a description of what the craft look like and how it is anomalous. They need to say and reveal as much as they can if we are to have any chance to debunk the claims.

But we can see what reported UAP look like in the released videos. Generally small on-screen features a few pixels across, often in IR, making shape/ features very difficult to interpret. Some show brightness/ shape fluctuations that indicate they might be birds beating their wings.
None are obviously novel technological artefacts, though a few might be small drones or balloons, maybe windblown debris, pyrotechnics, who knows.

Someone else's description won't change that primary evidence.
I agree that more information from the recording sensors/ platforms/ reporting personnel might help us understand what might be being shown, but it is clear some locations and flight information won't be given.

There's no evidence that AARO, or anyone else, has any better or clearer footage other than claims by a small number of people who don't produce any evidence other than hearsay. Some of those people also claim there are known crashed/ retrieved alien spacecraft, which has been categorically denied by NASA, AARO and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; when asked about the subject the White House and DoD referred to AARO's response.
Whatever files are released or explanations given, if it doesn't support their viewpoint "believers" will claim there is better evidence, which is being hidden, that does.

...and how it is anomalous.

They are "anomalous" because the people submitting the clips think, or claim, they might show something anomalous. (I don't think AARO's title helps much- they are the "All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office", which implies what they review is anomalous, a word that might have different meanings or connotations for different people).
If there was a Loch Ness Monster Reporting Office, it's possible it would receive accounts of sightings and perhaps photos/ video showing hard-to-identify features on Loch Ness that might be signs of Nessie activity but which probably show something else.
Believers would claim the submitted material is evidence of the existence of Nessie, perhaps that the existence of The Loch Ness Monster Reporting Office in itself shows there must be an exciting Loch Ness phenomena.

This irrational refusal to learn more is making us look like dogmatists and them to look like the scientifically minded folks who want to see the data and evidences so that it can be analysed. We should be the ones that loudest demand disclosure.

That's assuming there's significant relevant information that hasn't been disclosed. This is the raison d'etre of the "disclosure movement",

External Quote:
The disclosure movement is a social movement that argues in favor of various conspiracy theories which allege that governments generally, or the United States government specifically, have secret information regarding UFOs and "non-human intelligence" – variously described as space aliens; "interdimensional" beings; beings originating on Earth or native to the atmosphere; demons; and even time travelers. The movement advocates for that supposed information to be declassified for purposes of human social and scientific advancement. The disclosure movement prophesizes a future event or process called "disclosure" that will mark the date upon which such declassification occurs.
Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_movement

I hope that if there were reliable evidence of extraterrestrial life, alien artefacts of any sort, or news of some extraordinary human technological breakthrough it would be shared. Military developments probably won't be in the short term; but it must be unlikely for a whole host of reasons that e.g. the USAF has developed antigravity drives or a means to tap vacuum energy at Wright-Patterson, or has flying saucers at Area 51.

The vast majority of astronomers and allied scientists who might be most likely to detect possible extraterrestrial biospheres, or even perhaps detect an alien signal or technosignature, are civilian academics with no links to the military or security services, sometimes working in multinational collaborations. Oumuamua and other extrasolar objects were made public by astronomers, and the speculations of some (e.g. Avi Loeb) are not suppressed (though they are questioned, which is entirely appropriate).

The "Wow!" signal and LGM-1 were both made public. (admittedly LGM-1, pulsar PSR B1919+21, was announced after its probable cause was established). At the times of their discoveries these were the best evidence of ETI. We haven't had better since.
Radio communication is cheap, its signals traversing space at the speed of light. Even a civilization at our level of development- just 170 human lifetimes since the development of agriculture- can send and receive radio signals over interstellar distances.
If we were to see strong evidence of ETI, it might be more likely to be in the form of something detected by radio astronomers than anything connected with the 80-year old UFO scene.

In short: USG has to answer to the accusations even if that means denying the existence of that material
We know that USG (or at least its agencies, including AARO) receives claims that things have been seen in the sky that haven't been identified.
That can't be denied, and isn't.
AARO has made it clear, like Blue Book in the past, that it can't identify everything described by eyewitnesses or shown in photos/ footage.
If something is unidentified, it can't be ruled out that it is somehow exotic, but that doesn't mean it is likely to be so.
 
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As it is now, a lot of people find the UFO-WBers trustworthy and the longer USG is dragging this out the more people will be convinced that they are hiding something.
But that's exactly @Andreas ' point, isn't it? We have all those reports that were released to us in the last few weeks (that is, NOT "dragging this out") and instead of demonstrating transparency, the UFO crowd, angry at not having found any smoking guns, are still screaming "You're hiding the good stuff!". The more they're given, the more they whine. Release of that information has not shaken their preconceived notions. They will not accept that the UFO/extraterrestrial thing is largely built upon the misinterpretation of mundane and explainable phenomena.
My point was that they should release data that was useful instead.
"Instead"? Your point assumes what has never been shown to be the case, that there actually IS better data out there. You've got "the conclusion before the horse", which puts you firmly among those you describe as "a lot of people". You cannot accept what has been shown. We cannot prove a negative. Yet the UFO crowd still keeps trying to get blood out of a turnip.
 
They are feeling a bit sidelined as attention shifts to the news "Gish Gallop" of released videos* perhaps, so needed to get themselves back in front of the cameras?

*I am not accusing the government of a Gish Gallop by intent, but that has been something of the unintended effect. Dump a bunch of files, the first handful get debunked, the Big UFO folks say "Well, those were the obvious ones, when will you debunk the rest of them????"
 
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