Ukraine National Guard dip bullets in pig fat

deirdre

Senior Member.
claim:
Article:
The National Guard of Ukraine has shared a video on its Twitter account that appears to show Azov fighters greasing bullets with pig fat, ostensibly to be used against against Muslim Chechens deployed to their country as Russia steps up its military assault on Ukraine.


Is there a legit reason to dip bullets in lard? can anyone translate what man in video is saying?



the aljezeera article claims he is saying
Article:
He says: “Dear Muslim brothers. In our country, you will not go to heaven. You will not be allowed into heaven. Go home, please. Here, you will encounter trouble. Thank you for your attention, goodbye.”


Source: https://twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497924614865002497%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2022%2F2%2F28%2Fukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Kinda misleading to call this "Ukraine National Guard"
the twitter account says it is the Ukraine national Guard
1646152996806.png


and they added the "fist bump" , so i assume that means the same thing it means here. (ie:support) ???

edit:spelling fix
 
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FatPhil

Senior Member.
There is no legitimate reason to dip bullets in lard.

They falsely believe that their Muslim targets believe that if they come into contact with haraam pig fat and don't have time to absolve themselves of the apparent sin before death, they will not enter heaven. However, Muslims do not believe this, they cannot become haraam through non-deliberate contact.
Sura 2:173 has the clear out:
But he who is constrained (to eat of them) – and he neither covets them nor exceeds the indispensable limit incurs no sin: Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
Content from External Source
This verse grants permission to use prohibited things with three stipulations. First, one must be in a state of extreme compulsion, for example, being gravely ill or being so hungry and thirsty that one's very life is in danger, and a prohibited thing is all that is available to save one's life. Second, the person concerned should have no inclination to violate the Law of God. Third, in consuming the prohibited thing one should not exceed the limits of bare necessity. If a few bites or a few drops are enough to save one's life, one ought not to go beyond the absolute minimum.
Content from External Source
-- https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=172&to=173

It's just good old-fashioned ignorant racism, or equivalent.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Kinda misleading to call this "Ukraine National Guard", the Azov is a neonazi batallion in the Ukraine army, and the other batallions aren't likely to do this.

Azov Special Operations Detachment, often known as Azov Detachment, Azov Regiment, or Azov Battalion (until September 2014), is a [...] unit of the National Guard of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
Content from External Source

More info on the structure of the National Guard here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine

also confirming that the Azov Regiment is part of the NGU.

There is no legitimate reason to dip bullets in lard.

If they believe their enemies won't like it - will be annoyed and angered by it, or may even think twice about going into battle - that's probably a legitimate reason.
 

Edward Current

Active Member
This is an old trope that goes back to before World War I. There is a legend that in the Philippines, General John "Black Jack" Pershing dipped bullets in pig blood to spiritually own Muslim Moro tribesmen who were to be executed. The story resurfaced when Donald Trump re-told it as the "proper" way to dispatch terrorists, and it had to be re-debunked, as in this Politico article that provides the backstory.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...an-teach-us-about-fighting-terrorists-215509/

If soldiers actually did this recently, I assume it's inspired by the older sensationalist story.
 

Rory

Senior Member.

It was an allusion to a fictional yarn the president told on the campaign trail.

According to candidate Trump, during his time fighting the Muslim Moro tribesmen in the southern Philippines, Pershing “caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage ... and he took the 50 terrorists and he took 50 men and dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood. You heard about that? He took 50 bullets and dipped them in pig’s blood. And he had his men load up their rifles and he lined up 50 people and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said, you go back to your people and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years there wasn’t a problem.”

The fable, like all such, gets more grandiose with the telling: During a campaign rally in March 2016, Trump’s initial 25 years became 42.

“I’ve been hearing this story since 9/11,” says historian Brian Linn, the author of a much-admired book on the Philippine insurrection (The Philippine War, 1899-1902), “and it’s no truer now than it was when I first heard it. It’s almost as if people want it to be true. But when you dig into it, when you try to find specifics, you realize the story is nonsense.”
Content from External Source
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
If they believe their enemies won't like it - will be annoyed and angered by it, or may even think twice about going into battle - that's probably a legitimate reason.
when i said "legit reason" i meant like to prevent your gun from jamming, or something.

when you google "pork lard bullets" it seems some types of bullets/guns do need lubrication like "black powder guns" and maybe "cast" bullets? then i read lead bullets..something about them might use lard lube. I'm guessing the NG uses modern devices ...but thought it might be a gun jam thing or some other weird gun fact.

add: other question: dont the casings pop off bullets when you fire them? or do war bullets act differently so they dont litter the country with bullet shells?
 
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Rory

Senior Member.
when i said "legit reason" i meant like to prevent your gun from jamming, or something.

Yep, I figured that's what you meant. Was just expanding on "legitimate" I guess. :)

Not sure what Mendel's disliking about my post? Probably that he was wrong about something. :D
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
also confirming that the Azov Regiment is part of the NGU.
you're missing the point

if I say "the GOP supports QAnon", deirdre is going to correct me and say it's not the GOP, it's just Boebert—and arguing that Boebert is part of the GOP won't help

sometimes you need to be specific
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
if I say "the GOP supports QAnon", deirdre is going to correct me and say it's not the GOP, it's just Boebert—and arguing that Boebert is part of the GOP won't help
if the GOP official twitter account says they support Q-Anon, then i'd be wrong.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
dont the casings pop off bullets when you fire them? or do war bullets act differently so they dont litter the country with bullet shells?
the casing contains the gunpowder which propels the bullet through the barrel as it explodes
the hot, empty casing stays in the chamber and is typically pulled back and ejected sideways as the breech moves backwards
Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rJMXXuGhINE


the military is famously unconcerned about littering

@Rory your idea of xenophobia as legitimizing anything is one I don't share
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
There is no functional reason for Azov to do this...
it is, as others have said, just good old-fashioned racist hate.
The MTG shoulder patches, on the other hand, are fresh & stylish!
 

JMartJr

Senior Member

Edward Current

Active Member
It was an allusion to a fictional yarn the president told on the campaign trail.

According to candidate Trump, during his time fighting the Muslim Moro tribesmen in the southern Philippines, Pershing “caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage ... and he took the 50 terrorists and he took 50 men and dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood. You heard about that? He took 50 bullets and dipped them in pig’s blood. And he had his men load up their rifles and he lined up 50 people and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said, you go back to your people and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years there wasn’t a problem.”

The fable, like all such, gets more grandiose with the telling: During a campaign rally in March 2016, Trump’s initial 25 years became 42.

“I’ve been hearing this story since 9/11,” says historian Brian Linn, the author of a much-admired book on the Philippine insurrection (The Philippine War, 1899-1902), “and it’s no truer now than it was when I first heard it. It’s almost as if people want it to be true. But when you dig into it, when you try to find specifics, you realize the story is nonsense.”
Content from External Source
Pershing wrote in his autobiography that "The bodies [of some Moro outlaws] were publicly buried in the same grave with a dead pig." This treatment was used against captured juramentado so that the superstitious Moro would believe they would be going to hell. Pershing added that "it was not pleasant [for the Army] to have to take such measures". Historians do not believe that Pershing was directly involved with such incidents, or that he personally gave such orders to his subordinates. Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing having been personally involved.
Content from External Source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing#Spanish–_and_Philippine–American_wars

The embellishment with the pig's blood may be relatively new; the overall legend involving Pershing and Muslims is not.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
yes, but the UNG Twitter doesn't dip bullets in fat, the Azov nazis do
if the GOP wrote on their official twitter account :

"Q-Anon storms the capitol" 1646179278976.png


you can officially say the GOP supports Q-anon and their actions. and i would agree with you.

and Azov are officially part of the Ukrainian National Guard.
America and Europe would never allow any of their soldiers to wear a neo-nazi patch on their uniforms. If they did allow it, and their neo-nazi soldiers dipped bullets in pigs blood i would title my thread "U.S. Army dips bullets in pigs blood" even if the U.S army did not support it (fist bump) on their official twitter feed.


(You're disagreement with my interpretation has been noted. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
*but why you are condemning Rory, when you yourself are excusing the Ukraine NG support of neo-nazis... i don't get.)
 

Ann K

Senior Member.
From the Wikipedia article on the Sepoy Rebellion:

"The Enfield rifle
The final spark was provided by the ammunition for the new Enfield Pattern 1853 rifled musket.[44] These rifles, which fired Minié balls, had a tighter fit than the earlier muskets, and used paper cartridges that came pre-greased. To load the rifle, sepoys had to bite the cartridge open to release the powder.[45] The grease used on these cartridges was rumoured to include tallow derived from beef, which would be offensive to Hindus,[46] and lard derived from pork, which would be offensive to Muslims. At least one Company official pointed out the difficulties this might cause:

unless it be proven that the grease employed in these cartridges is not of a nature to offend or interfere with the prejudices of religion, it will be expedient not to issue them for test to Native corps.[47]
However, in August 1856, greased cartridge production was initiated at Fort William, Calcutta, following a British design. The grease used included tallow supplied by the Indian firm of Gangadarh Banerji & Co.[48] By January, rumours abounded that the Enfield cartridges were greased with animal fat.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
you're missing the point

Ah, I get it. When you said:

Kinda misleading to call this "Ukraine National Guard"

you're not disputing that the Azov Battalion is a part of the Ukraine National Guard (NGU) but rather that it would be better if the title of the thread reflected that it wasn't the entire National Guard that were reported to be doing this but a quite ideologically specific section.

@Rory your idea of xenophobia as legitimizing anything is one I don't share

Maybe it's a bit like "all's fair in love and war". I'm not saying I support it. But when people are trying to kill one another social niceties don't generally come into it.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
So should the title of the thread reflect the trueness of the claim? Ie, not debunked but rather confirmed?
 

JMartJr

Senior Member
I's it confirmed? We've discussed the history of similar claims, and discussed possible motives.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Is it confirmed? We've discussed the history of similar claims, and discussed possible motives.

The tweet describing it in the OP is from the Ukrainian National Guard themselves so I'd say that's confirmed.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
So should the title of the thread reflect the trueness of the claim? Ie, not debunked but rather confirmed?
i would prefer a ukraine speaking person to translate the video for me. it does seem by the wording of the tweet "Kadyrov orcs" (who do seem to be primarily Muslim by my googling) that muslims are being singled out. But my tweet in english is also a "translation" .. like orcs? who calls anyone orcs?

it's possible it's a misunderstanding, like "we are greasing our bullets to keep our guns from jamming as we know more groups are joining the russian soldiers" ????? (they're probably racist/religionists, but i dont think we know 100% because none of us know the language)
 

JMartJr

Senior Member
The tweet describing it in the OP is from the Ukrainian National Guard themselves so I'd say that's confirmed.
I'm not sure I trust them as a source, as propaganda is a thing in wartime. I do recognize the potentially impossibly high bar that sets for confirmation in this instance...
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
I'm not sure I trust them as a source, as propaganda is a thing in wartime. I do recognize the potentially impossibly high bar that sets for confirmation in this instance...
If the UNG says, in effect, "our neonazi batallion are xenophobic assholes", why would they lie about that? Do you suppose the Azov is actually tolerant of other religions, and only pretends to not be for propaganda reasons?

That said, it may well be that it's only one guy doing it as a camera op, and they don't really do it routinely. As non-muslims, they shouldn't believe it actually has an affect on the afterlife anyway.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
If the UNG says, in effect, "our neonazi batallion are xenophobic assholes"

The NGU didn't say that, they said what they said in the tweet.

"In effect" is open to interpretation, projection, etc.

I wouldn't say that's what they said, "in effect" or otherwise.

That said, it may well be that it's only one guy doing it as a camera op

That's true. It would have the desired effect and be a lot more time efficient. I would think they have better things to do than laboriously put lard on bullets one by one.

At least they should come up with a system to do it en masse if they really are going to do it.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
"In effect" is open to interpretation, projection, etc.

I wouldn't say that's what they said, "in effect" or otherwise.
eh. if i supported the capitol storming because at least now congresspeople (like pelosi and maxine waters) get a taste of what citizens were feeling surrounded by blm riots that the congress people encouraged, i might say

"Trump supporters are violent a*holes 1646234764981.png" ie. (Yay!)
 

JMartJr

Senior Member
If the UNG says, in effect, "our neonazi batallion are xenophobic assholes", why would they lie about that?
Might the neonazi xenophobic assholes claim they are doing some xenophobic assholery that they are not in fact doing? Given that the purpose might be propagandistic, on the mistaken assumption that Muslims would worry more about getting shot if you could convince them that there is pork-slatherings on the bullet? The purpose is not to grease the bullets, but to convince people that they think or MORE scared of getting shot with a grease bullet that you have done so.
ARE they actually doing it? I dont know. And if my concern for labeling this one confirmed is the minority report, I am ok with that.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
Might the neonazi xenophobic assholes claim they are doing some xenophobic assholery that they are not in fact doing? Given that the purpose might be propagandistic, on the mistaken assumption that Muslims would worry more about getting shot if you could convince them that there is pork-slatherings on the bullet? The purpose is not to grease the bullets, but to convince people that they think or MORE scared of getting shot with a grease bullet that you have done so.
ARE they actually doing it? I dont know. And if my concern for labeling this one confirmed is the minority report, I am ok with that.

The wording in the title isn't confirmed. It's not UNG policy, the title represents a misleading generalisation. The Azov batallion are a rogue self-invention that was back-engineered into the UNG out of desperation/convenience using the "enemy of my enemy" fallacy.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Perhaps this will be seen as pedantic but can we remember that it's NGU not UNG?

I could even offer to switching to spelling Kiev with a "y" as a bartering chip. ;)
 
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Leifer

Senior Member.
I'm not a firearm expert, but I have been reading that some gun operators have used "pork lard" to lubricate their weapons.... usually in a 50/50 mix with bees wax, or even lanolin.
But those "in the field of war" with a lack of other options for gun lubrication, may turn to rendered fat.
Pork fat will eventually turn rancid, and depending on the source, may contain salts (bad for gun metal maintenance).
New cast-iron cooking pans are sometimes coated with lard, and baked at high heat (over time) in order to create a coated/seasoned pan. So it seems that lard can oxidize and polymerize - not good for long-term gun maintenance. (hence adding bees wax to prevent this).
(some gun forum, among other google searches)
That is my layman quick research.

But I think the more important idea that the OP question/idea is based in fantasy......... is that it does not make much sense to add evil pork into the enemy, unless both parties (shooter and victim) are both Muslim.
Why would a non-Muslim shooter think that using a pig-bullet would mean anything in an afterlife of a religion that the non-Muslim shooter does not believe in ?
 
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Agent K

Senior Member
Why would a non-Muslim shooter think that using a pig-bullet would mean anything in an afterlife of a religion that the shooter does not believe in ?
It's to psych out or troll Muslim enemies who are offended by it. But it will also offend Muslim allies like the Turks.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
It's to psych out or troll Muslim enemies who are offended by it. But it will also offend Muslim allies like the Turks.
...only if they advertise that they are adding pork products to bullets.
It's simply a cruel mental psyche... but I guess that's war.
 

Agent K

Senior Member
...only if they advertise that they are adding pork products to bullets.
That's what they did.
It's simply a cruel mental psyche... but I guess that's war.
I remember another thing that reportedly psyched out jihadists.
Article:

How Kurdish women soldiers are confronting ISIS on the front lines​

May 3, 2015

MARTIN HIMEL: ISIS warriors believe if they die in battle, they receive the 72 virgins of paradise, but if they are killed at the hands of female fighters, they go straight to hell.
What do you think of an enemy that says they go straight to hell if they are killed by a woman?
BERYTAN: When I fight against them, I feel stronger, empowered because when they see women, they go weak at the knees. Because according to their belief, they must not be killed by a women. When they see us, they prefer to run away not to be killed by us.
Ukraine has been touting its female fighters as well, like former Miss Ukraine 2015, but not to psych out jihadists.
 

Agent K

Senior Member
On the subject of imprudent Ukrainian social media posts, Ukraine's special forces posted that Russian artillerymen will no longer be taken prisoner, but "will be slaughtered like pigs."

Article:
The SSO Brotherhood of Ukraine sends its greetings to the Russian artillery! We congratulate you: after you bombarded our peaceful cities, our relatives, children, loved ones - you, worms, became our number one target... Now look, worms: you don't see your targets and it's sort of easier for you. But believe me: it will never be easier for you scum. We already have information about you... From now on, there will be no more captured Russian artillerymen. No mercy, no "please don't kill, I surrender" will be accepted. Every crew member, no matter: commander, driver, spotter, loader - will be slaughtered like pigs. Piss your pants, we've already come for you. Call your mom one last time. Say you gonna die soon jackal. We are not death, we are worse!
Translated
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I see that Snopes took a shot at this, today: Confirming that yes,
these a-holes are now a part of the National Guard
(allowed, evidently because the've fought well)
but really emphasizing what a tiny, tiny fraction of the Guard
that they are:
"...anywhere from 900 to 2,500prior to the Russian invasion, while the Ukrainian standing military in total was composed of about 200,000 troops..."
with a disclaimer that recent events could significantly affect those stats...
https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/02/what-is-ukraines-azov-battalion/
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
But I think the more important idea that the OP question/idea is based in fantasy......... is that it does not make much sense to add evil pork into the enemy, unless both parties (shooter and victim) are both Muslim.
Why would a non-Muslim shooter think that using a pig-bullet would mean anything in an afterlife of a religion that the non-Muslim shooter does not believe in ?

It's a perversion of Pascal's Wager. It's cheap - why not?
 
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