UAPs, Bigelow, and the "Invisible College"

Mauro

Active Member
Brian Dunning of skeptoid.com has just posted the 2nd part of an article about the history of UFO 'research'.

The UFO Rogues Gallery Takes Over America - Part 1
The UFO Rogues Gallery Takes Over America - Part 2

I think I can safely paste here an excerpt (with which I very much agree) without violating his Rights & reuse policy:

Welcome to Part 2 of our episode revealing how, for more than 50 years, a small group of paranormalists and believers in reincarnation have been pursuing their interests on the payroll of the American taxpayers, and finally got their biggest PR success with claims of Navy UFO videos and ever-failing promises of government disclosure. This is a gallery of rogues who have presented a public face of UFOs that threaten our skies, while keeping their true beliefs behind the scenes, which is that they believe UFOs and poltergeists are inter-dimensional beings who hold the keys to life after death. Sound incredible? Sound too hard to believe that the government could be duped into funding such nonsense? Well, people forget: One does not need to fool the entire government to win a research grant; one needs only to find the right person holding the right purse strings.
 

Alphadunk

Active Member
But therein lies the problem with the critique of the Las Vegas UFO mob. It doesn't really matter what they truly believe if their pursuits led to the discovery of an actual problem that needs to be rectified. The UAP report was pretty clear in the assertion that the Navy is failing in terms of securing airspace and being able to positively identify object incursions. It was also clear in the assertion that more time and study was warranted. So, was Bigelow wrong to get the ball rolling on this stuff?

It's like if a group of Bigfoot hunters inadvertently discovered a new species of bear. You're free to mock their Bigfoot pursuit but that pursuit still yielded something of value.
 

LilWabbit

Active Member
But therein lies the problem with the critique of the Las Vegas UFO mob. It doesn't really matter what they truly believe if their pursuits led to the discovery of an actual problem that needs to be rectified.

That's assuming the DoD hasn't already been fully aware of the problem. Then there's the military outsiders' mischaracterization and exaggeration of the problem, assuming it isn't already being prioritized and addressed within DoD's (far more expensive) programmes for improving ISR capabilities, that it requires a separate or centralized entity, and that the DoD cannot tolerate certain inevitable level of low-information sensor-data at the limits of every sensor capability.
 

Mauro

Active Member
But therein lies the problem with the critique of the Las Vegas UFO mob. It doesn't really matter what they truly believe if their pursuits led to the discovery of an actual problem that needs to be rectified. The UAP report was pretty clear in the assertion that the Navy is failing in terms of securing airspace and being able to positively identify object incursions. It was also clear in the assertion that more time and study was warranted. So, was Bigelow wrong to get the ball rolling on this stuff?

It's like if a group of Bigfoot hunters inadvertently discovered a new species of bear. You're free to mock their Bigfoot pursuit but that pursuit still yielded something of value.
This may be, but it's also possible that's there's nothing at all to be studied or found. The Bigfoot hunters may discover a new species of bear, but much more probably they will not and their endeavour will end up in a waste of money and resources which could have been better used elsewhere.

The Navy (and all other service branches) are already very much preoccupied by the menace represented by drones and similar (known) aerial vehicles. Those are real and pressing threats, difficult to spot and to identify and difficult to suppress (expecially if used in numbers). The attacks on Saudi oil facilities in September 2019 is just one example of the very real dangers these weapons pose, going from small drones fitted with small explosive charges to high-end military systems which have been used with devastating results in the recent conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. So I don't find it strange at all that the Navy admits they have "an actual problem that needs to be rectified" because they do, even if UAPs have nothing to do with that and even if they and other armed forces (all over the world) are already investing a lot of money to overcome it. This very real problem can then be sexed up with hypothetical secret Russian or Chinese or even outworldly technology and used in a report as an excuse to justify the money spent and plead for future fundings for a silly project (nothing strange here too).

One does not need to fool the entire government to win a research grant; one needs only to find the right person holding the right purse strings. (B. Dunning)
 
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PacketSniffer5000

New Member
It's like if a group of Bigfoot hunters inadvertently discovered a new species of bear. You're free to mock their Bigfoot pursuit but that pursuit still yielded something of value.

I agree with the other point by LilWabbit, but as a new user following the social side of this phenomenon it does suggest that there is a chance that the videos themselves are doctored/cut to fit in the narratives of those who brought them to public light.

Do we have any information on who was compiling the 2021 report? Aside from Reid, are there any residual Invisible College people linked to its actual findings? Do they preshape the testimonies of pilots and radar crew before they go on mainstream news? It would seem they do in the case of Fravor, even if these people are better educated and trained in scientific thought than those who promote mysticism as a livelihood. Among the US Navy witnesses, clearly some of them have more discrete in their choice of media outlets. They had more to lose, of course.
 

Alphadunk

Active Member
Do we have any information on who was compiling the 2021 report? Aside from Reid, are there any residual Invisible College people linked to its actual findings? Do they preshape the testimonies of pilots and radar crew before they go on mainstream news? It would seem they do in the case of Fravor, even if these people are better educated and trained in scientific thought than those who promote mysticism as a livelihood. Among the US Navy witnesses, clearly some of them have more discrete in their choice of media outlets. They had more to lose, of course.

Outside of pure speculation I don't think anyone can really answer that. We know Elizondo has a great admiration for Puthoff and Eric Davis but he's never elaborated on how closely they worked together as far as I'm aware. Eric Davis has claimed to have worked as a contractor for AATIP. He also claims the AATIP program never stopped and was simply renamed and he still works with the program.

I don't see any reason to believe these people would be directly involved with Navy witnesses though. One thing to keep in mind is that despite their woo beliefs Puthoff and Eric Davis are still legitimate physicists and the government obviously has seen value in continuing to work with them for so many years.
 

Robert Sheaffer

New Member
All modern ufology roads lead back to Bigelow and/or Puthoff! This is something that has been discussed a great deal on the AboveTopSecret forums with a lot of very detailed research going into how all of these personal connections were formed and how they've evolved over time. I don't think there is any question this small group of true believers has largely driven the government's interest in UAP, among other fringe topics, over the last twenty years.

Prior to 2001, people like Puthoff and Eric Davis were still players in the field but there was also another group led by Steven Greer also pushing the narrative forward. Since 2001 Greer has gotten pretty out there and largely ostracized himself from the rest of ufological circles. That said, it's hard to discount his importance in getting us to where we are today. His work with Edgar Mitchell in meeting with officials definitely played a role in this and shouldn't be ignored.

Regardless of anything else I think it's worth remembering that isn't just a "nothing there" flap as people here often imply. There is very obviously something going on that needs to be investigated and rectified. If we have pilots continuously misusing systems or misinterpreting sensor data then that's a big problem, same for radar operators. If our systems are being legitimately fooled by prosaic objects like birds, balloons, or reflections then that's a big problem. If we have unknown entities in American airspace, be it foreign drone, radar reflector balloons, or alien spaceships... that's a big problem. So while it's easy to laugh off people like Bigelow with his fanciful supernatural ideas I think the man deserves credit in having a role in bringing this stuff to the attention of the public.
Yes. Not only do Puthoff, Davis, etc. keep turning up in government UFO matters, but they also played a big role in government investigations of ESP, psychic powers, remote viewing, etc. A whole lot of time and money has been spent on that, with no real results.

https://badufos.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-not-so-brief-history-of-pentagon-woo.html
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
Speaking of this AATIP/Bigelow/Invisible College saga, here is an association chart I've made showing some of the relationships among the various players. Feedback welcome (other charts can be found here):
AATIP.jpeg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Speaking of this AATIP/Bigelow/Invisible College saga, here is an association chart I've made showing some of the relationships among the various players. Feedback welcome
I'd suggest using different colors for the links to the major nodes, and may double the line thicknesses.

What do you use to make it?
 
Speaking of this AATIP/Bigelow/Invisible College saga, here is an association chart I've made showing some of the relationships among the various players. Feedback welcome (other charts can be found here):
AATIP.jpeg
Love it. Is there additional corroborating information on the links between the different persons and organizations available? Because I was just wondering on the connection between TTSA and Bob Lazar.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Love it. Is there additional corroborating information on the links between the different persons and organizations available? Because I was just wondering on the connection between TTSA and Bob Lazar.
I googled it. TTS, Inc. published Lazar's autobiography.

Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/tothestarsmedia/status/1182034284858621953?lang=de


Article:
SmartSelect_20211024-123809_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
I'd suggest using different colors for the links to the major nodes, and may double the line thicknesses.

What do you use to make it?
I use the Lucid app (available from Lucid.app; a subscription fee applies after a free trial, but it's well worth it for these types of charts). Yes, I'll be modifying it with different colors, increased line thicknesses, etc.
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
Love it. Is there additional corroborating information on the links between the different persons and organizations available? Because I was just wondering on the connection between TTSA and Bob Lazar.
Thanks Steve. Yes, as per Mendel's reply, Lazar's "autobiography" was published by TTSA. I'm building an Excel database to store all the citations showing the connections between people in the chart.
 

jackfrostvc

Active Member
@Luis Cayetano

If you haven't read it yet, I recommend reading the following ATS thread. It's an eye opener
Ever wonder why the DIA and Counter Intel would get involved with Bigelow to form AAWSAP through Reid

I always wondered what they got out of it. What was their objective (DIA-Counter Intels)

The thread below gives some pointers. It seems very likely through the AAWSAP contract and Bigelow, that they got the MUFON DB and probably everything else NIDS/Bigelow had which was a lot , he had also bought international UFO DBs, and also had the commercial and military pilot reports of UFOs. A lot of controversy about the MUFON stuff happened at the time leading to the International MUFON director resigning in disgust

Why would they be interested in this data. Think about what the DIA and Counter Intel do and what they are interested in ie intel on adversary capabilites, their latest aircraft, drones , weapons etc. Where might a sighting, details, pics for that stuff end up?

Same with domestic aircraft, drones and weapons they were testing. Same same, they would then be able to peruse the data to see what people had been seeing of there own tech.

Building up a UAP narratice also now gives them the ability to say what ever people see in the sky, pfft, that's a UFO

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1195773/pg1

It makes sense now why Lacatski (DIA Counter Intel) would go to Skinwalker and make up some lie about seeing the structure thats on the album cover of Tubular Bells floating in the air of the kitchen. Or why Elizondo allegedly told them (Inc Puthoff - carreer believer in Remote Viewing) he had experience with Remote viewing. They were telling people what they wanted to hear to win their confidence and trust ie the confidence game.

The irony is that it's pretty clear Lacatski was also simulataneously taking the piss out of them
Bigelow believed paranormal activity existed at Skinwaker. So Lacatski goes there and tells them he sees that struture floating in the kitchen
The structure thats on the cover of Tubular Bells. What is Tubular Bells, the sound track to ..... "The Exorcist"
 
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Yes, as per Mendel's reply, Lazar's "autobiography" was published by TTSA. I'm building an Excel database to store all the citations showing the connections between people in the chart.

Thanks for confirming this. Could be interesting to make your graph into an interactive tool in the future to click through. Somewhat similar to what data journalists are doing nowadays.
 

Rocky

Member
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FuVClipbh4


Article:
Puthoff was the brains behind what the intelligence community referred to as the “remote viewing program,” and he worked with an informal group of colleagues on a range of paranormal issues, a team that Vallée termed the “invisible college.” Over the next half-century, Puthoff would help to keep interest in UFOs alive inside the government.

In 1995, Project Stargate ended in failure. Government interest in UFOs and the paranormal might have faded away just as surely if not for the interest of a wealthy hotel magnate, Robert Bigelow, who had spent a lifetime obsessed with the paranormal and became a patron of UFO conspiracy theorists. Bigelow went into business with Area 51 conspiracy nut Bob Lazar, and he funded the research of dubious alien abduction investigators Bud Hopkins and John Mack.

“Invisible College” members moved through a series of paranormal initiatives and organizations in the 1990s, culminating in Bigelow’s National Institute for Discovery Science, a private organization in which several members studied UFOs and the paranormal between 1995 and 2004. Vallée sat on its board. NIDS primarily researched—and failed to prove—the supposed paranormal mysteries of a patch of desert in Utah called Skinwalker Ranch. Puthoff and the NIDS team believed it to be a supernatural gateway to the space ghost dimension. (The ranch is now the set of a paranormal reality TV program.) Remarkably, they managed to convince a visiting Defense Intelligence Agency scientist, and the DIA partnered with Bigelow to investigate space ghosts.


I'm opening this thread to a broader discussion than normal to look into the concept that a relatively small number of people, with varying degrees of belief in the supernatural, specifically Jacque Vallée, Hal Puthoff, Robert Bigelow, George Knapp, and others have provided much of the driving force behind the current UAP flap.

I recommend reading Colavito's article, and/or watching my interview with him before proceeding.

At the center of this web, we really keep coming back to Bigelow. It's quite hard to find any aspect of the story that is not connected by one or two hops to him. Bigelow owned Skinwalker. Bigelow got the contract for AATIP from Harry Reid who was introduced to UFOlogy by George Knapp. Bigelow's paranormal investigation arm NIDS became the single UFO reporting site for the FAA before 2002. Leslie Kean (one writer on NYT's first AATIP story) is now on a panel of Judges with Hal Puthoff, for Bigelow's Institute of Consciousness studies. Vallée (whose involvement goes back to the 1960s) has most recently been studying "metamaterials" for Bigelow and TTSA, as reported on by George Knapp.

Of course, not all connections are necessarily meaningful. But I think there's something fairly significant here - that a relatively small number of people with supernatural beliefs are having a disproportionate effect on the national narrative surrounding UFOs, and ultimately influencing the actions of politicians.

This is the best interview ever. Covers everything you wanted to know about the history of a few people still involved and what they truly were trying to do. Everyone should watch this.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Kind of like this? (this is only preliminary, but I'm going to expand on it):
Yes, that's a great start. I think ultimately it's going to be overly complex as there's so many relationships. I've often thought about doing an interactive chart along these lines where you could choose what to highlight, and where the center is.
 

NorCal Dave

Active Member
One thing I always wondered was exactly what was AATIP doing at the Pentagon? Elizondo and the rest make it seem like Luis and his crew were in some high tech CSI type office/lab where they would do all of this high tech "analysts" of the videos and things they were receiving for the Navy and Air Force and who ever else. I often though it just as probable that DoD would have done just enough to keep Senator Reid happy, like stick Elizondo in an unused broom closet, alone, from where he could beg for scrapes of UAP info.

Just saw on Jason Colovito's blog page from a couple of weeks ago, that the broom closet may be closer to the truth. AND, this info is from the pro-UFO crowd in their new book:

Skinwalkers in the Pentagon: An Insiders’ Account of the Secret Government UFO Program

From Jason's blog: (Bold by me)

https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/...le-alleges-lue-elizondo-claims-psychic-powers

And just in case someone thinks this is Jason misrepresenting the book, here is former head of AAWSAP, James Lacatski in an interview about the book with, non-other than, George Knapp: (bold by me)

And, yes, Lacatski and Knapp are also 2 of the 3 authors of the book, so it's all a bit incestuous.


https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/

So Elizondo's AATIP at the Pentagon had zero funding?

And the $22 was in fact all about finding all manner of phenomenon?

From the same article that included the Lataski interview, here are a few of the items the books authors (James T. Lacatski, Colm A. Kelleher and George Knapp) say the $22 million AAWSAP program worked on:

https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/

And Senator Reid still seems to be down with all of this:

https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/
 

jackfrostvc

Active Member
I think it's worth exploring why Lacatski would go down to Skinwalker. And then put in the paper work to get AAWSAP rolling

What did Lacatski or more importantly DIA - Counter Intelligence get out of it. What was in it for them?
^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^


Well , we know that as part of the program, Bigelow obtained under much controversy when it was found out, access to the MUFON DB. Bigelow also had obtained UFO DB's from around the world. He also as we know, had a program where all pilot UFO reports went to his company. Bigelow had the mother load of UFO data from pretty much every source out there.

When it was found out who Bigelows client was, DIA - CI, MUFON International Director J Carrion resigned in disgust.
You can read about how Bigelow bought MUFON data as part of the contract below.

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1195773/pg1#pid23021837


You need to remember what one of Counter Intelligence's main objectives is is to protect US tech data from falling into enemy hands
By having access to the UFO DB's , they had all reports of any US tech(new aircraft/weapons) being tested that had been reported to MUFON etc. So they could see what adversaries could gleen from those DB's about there tech.

They also had access to reports of foreign tech (think new aircraft/weapons ) that was being tested from foreign reports in the UFO DB's.

^^^^ This is IMO what AAWSAP was all about , IMO it had nothing to do with ET's. And everything to do with DIA - CI core objectives. ^^^


Think about what happened when Lacatski went to Skinwalker. He was sitting there with believers in the paranormal, and tells them he just saw a floating apparition in the kitchen. Why did he tell believers that, becuase he is playing the confidence game, he is winning their confidence and trust. Same reason Elizondo supposedly told the group inc Puthoff that he had Remote Viewing skills. He is playing the confidence game to win them over , particularly Puthoff who as we know was well into RV.
 
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NorCal Dave

Active Member
Think about what happened when Lacatski went to Skinwalker. He was sitting there with believers in the paranormal, and tells them he just saw a floating apparition in the kitchen. Why did he tell believers that, becuase he is playing the confidence game, he is winning their confidence and trust. Same reason Elizondo supposedly told the group inc Puthoff that he had Remote Viewing skills. He is playing the confidence game to win them over , particularly Puthoff who as we know was well into RV.
Hmmm, so your saying that Lacatski and Elizondo are Counter Intelligent (CI) agents working on behalf of the government? They're playing along to gain access to reports of UFO/UAPs for national security reasons?

If so, then at least some of the people in the narrative must be Useful Believers (UB). People that believe in UFOs and all the stuff that supposedly went down at Skinwalker Ranch.

If that's the case, we have to go down the list of participants and try to ascertain who is a CI an who is a UB.

Knapp: CI or UB
Bigelow: CI or UB
Kelleher: CI or UB
and so on....

I should have mentioned in my previous post that the third author of the book is Colm Kelleher, an employee of Bigelow:

https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
@Luis Cayetano

If you haven't read it yet, I recommend reading the following ATS thread. It's an eye opener
Ever wonder why the DIA and Counter Intel would get involved with Bigelow to form AAWSAP through Reid

I always wondered what they got out of it. What was their objective (DIA-Counter Intels)

The thread below gives some pointers. It seems very likely through the AAWSAP contract and Bigelow, that they got the MUFON DB and probably everything else NIDS/Bigelow had which was a lot , he had also bought international UFO DBs, and also had the commercial and military pilot reports of UFOs. A lot of controversy about the MUFON stuff happened at the time leading to the International MUFON director resigning in disgust

Why would they be interested in this data. Think about what the DIA and Counter Intel do and what they are interested in ie intel on adversary capabilites, their latest aircraft, drones , weapons etc. Where might a sighting, details, pics for that stuff end up?

Same with domestic aircraft, drones and weapons they were testing. Same same, they would then be able to peruse the data to see what people had been seeing of there own tech.

Building up a UAP narratice also now gives them the ability to say what ever people see in the sky, pfft, that's a UFO

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1195773/pg1

It makes sense now why Lacatski (DIA Counter Intel) would go to Skinwalker and make up some lie about seeing the structure thats on the album cover of Tubular Bells floating in the air of the kitchen. Or why Elizondo allegedly told them (Inc Puthoff - carreer believer in Remote Viewing) he had experience with Remote viewing. They were telling people what they wanted to hear to win their confidence and trust ie the confidence game.

The irony is that it's pretty clear Lacatski was also simulataneously taking the piss out of them
Bigelow believed paranormal activity existed at Skinwaker. So Lacatski goes there and tells them he sees that struture floating in the kitchen
The structure thats on the cover of Tubular Bells. What is Tubular Bells, the sound track to ..... "The Exorcist"

Great points! Yes, the involvement of some of these people could well point to a counter-intel job, either with Bigelow being in on it, or counter-intel operatives goading him with narratives that align with his paranormal inclinations in order to, as you say, gain his trust and use his contacts and network as a conduit for their intelligence gathering purposes. Their interest in this might be to keep tabs on who has seen what (especially if there's reason to believe that something might have been leaked to UFO enthusiasts by true believers within the military, and if foreign intel is suspected as recipients of some classified material about top secret aircraft or weapons) or any of a number of other possible reasons ultimately having nothing to do with alien visitors/supernatural beings etc. It might have shades of the Paul Bennewitz/Richard Doty/AFOSI/Dulce Base saga. Which, by the way, I've also made an association chart for:
Bennewitz.jpeg
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
Yes, that's a great start. I think ultimately it's going to be overly complex as there's so many relationships. I've often thought about doing an interactive chart along these lines where you could choose what to highlight, and where the center is.
Absolutely. I'll see if Lucid has any functionality like that. I would also like to be able to click on a particular connection between any two people and then have information displayed about their connection (media reports, newspaper clippings etc.).
 

Luis Cayetano

New Member
This is the best interview ever. Covers everything you wanted to know about the history of a few people still involved and what they truly were trying to do. Everyone should watch this.
It is a great interview. I would just challenge perhaps two things:

-- the first is about the "Invisible College" name. My understanding, from Vallee's book "The Invisible College' is that the group that he christened with that name was a specific group of people who are not the Bigelow crew (though a couple might have connections to Bigelow), although they also had parapsychological interests etc., so the term "Invisible College" could be used in a sort of generic sense to capture these types of interests rather than denoting a concrete group of people per se

-- Colavito says that he's not aware that Vallee ever worked for the federal government. From the Wikipedia page, it says that Vallee was involved in the helping to produce the first computerized maps of Mars. I don't know the provenance of this claim and it isn't cited, though, so I'm not going to put too much stock in it until I see independent verification. Also, Vallee worked at SRI, which was linked to the CIA's psychic spy program, so wouldn't that at least count as some sort of involvement with the federal government? (also, Vallee apparently worked on ARPANET while at SRI)
 

jackfrostvc

Active Member
Hmmm, so your saying that Lacatski and Elizondo are Counter Intelligent (CI) agents working on behalf of the government? They're playing along to gain access to reports of UFO/UAPs for national security reasons?

If so, then at least some of the people in the narrative must be Useful Believers (UB). People that believe in UFOs and all the stuff that supposedly went down at Skinwalker Ranch.

If that's the case, we have to go down the list of participants and try to ascertain who is a CI an who is a UB.

Knapp: CI or UB
Bigelow: CI or UB
Kelleher: CI or UB
and so on....

I should have mentioned in my previous post that the third author of the book is Colm Kelleher, an employee of Bigelow:

https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/


There is no way MUFON would have given access to the data to the DIA . Bigelow was there gateway to it. Bigelow also had a massive resource of info him self. In an interview, Carrion said he asked Bigelow straight up if his client was the DIA/DoD, and Bigelow said no when in fact they were. Lang also claimed that he noticed some case files mysteriously vanished from the system.


There is little bits ore hear , re Lang https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2021/10/lacatski.html

"Richard Lang, the MUFON/BAASS liaison individual, in his 2021 book "UFO Investigation: The methodology for a New Age. " has a section titled "Hidden cases." He writes:

"Toward the end of the program, issues about cases that were mysteriously disappearing overnight started to surface....high profile extremely interesting cases that were viewed by the Dispatch team overnight but somehow the following morning the cases disappeared from the system...Ultimately, I found evidence of it in what appeared to be a secret part of the file system."
 

JMartJr

Senior Member
My understanding, from Vallee's book "The Invisible College' is that the group that he christened with that name was a specific group of people who are not the Bigelow crew (though a couple might have connections to Bigelow), although they also had parapsychological interests etc., so the term "Invisible College" could be used in a sort of generic sense to capture these types of interests rather than denoting a concrete group of people per se
)
Yep, the term is much older than modern UFOists usage, and hies back to the 17th Century. Wikipedia's article notes its use in Rosicrucian pamphlets, and by Ben Jonson.
 

NorCal Dave

Active Member
There is no way MUFON would have given access to the data to the DIA . Bigelow was there gateway to it. Bigelow also had a massive resource of info him self. In an interview, Carrion said he asked Bigelow straight up if his client was the DIA/DoD, and Bigelow said no when in fact they were. Lang also claimed that he noticed some case files mysteriously vanished from the system.
So Bigelow is a Counter Intelligence (CI) guy also, or he was used by Lataski and maybe Elizondo and even Reid to get to MUFONs database?

It just seems awfully convoluted.

First is the Database. Right at the top of MUFON's homepage is a "Track UFOs" tab. Click on that and included under that tab is a "Search Database" option. You need to log in as a member to use it, not something I have the time for, but there it is. It appears to be publicly searchable. (The home page display below is kinda wonky when I tried to copy/paste, but you get the idea)

Granted this is now, and it's likely the entire database had not been fully digitized in 2008, so maybe what Bigelow was buying was years of paper records. Never the less, in 2006, when MUFON was setting up their own digital reporting database, it was available to the public:
https://www.space.com/28325-ufo-database-mufon-sightings.html

Somebody at DIA (Lataski?), had they thought MUFON had anything useful, could have just created and account and searched it.

So what secret stuff did MUFON have that the DIA had to use Bigelow to get for them. I doubt that MUFON would have kept their most compelling cases locked away. Just the opposite, MUFON survives on public involvement, their best cases would be publicly available.

No subterfuge needed.

And, even if it were needed, the Lataski/Elizondo/Skinwalker Ranch ploy seems very complicated in light of much simpler plans.

Assuming MUFON had secret files, and DIA wanted access to them, and MUFON was reluctant to share said files with the nefarious DIA, what's an easy way for DIA to get their hands on them?

Send someone down to Skinwalker Ranch to have a pretend encounter so that it can be reported to a gullible Senator who happens to be from Nevada and therefor is friends with both Bigelow and long time pro-UFO journalist George Knapp so that he can help award a $22 million contract to create AASWAP that works with BAASS to acquire said files. And then for good measure, send DoD guy Elizondo out to work with pop/punk rocker Tom DeLong's TTSA to talk about AATIP and all the cool stuff it did. Apparently with no money.

Why not just ask for the files? What does MUFON crave from the aerospace/military/academic/scientific industrial complex? Legitimacy. DIA could just send someone over, posing as an Airforce or NASA representative and say something like: "Hey guys, we at the government have really dropped the ball on this whole UFO thing, maybe you could help out by sharing your most excellent database with us. Of course, let's keep this on the down low". Seems a lot easier.

And again, this all assumes MUFON had something DIA wanted and couldn't get a hold of, something Lataski seems to counter: (bold by me)

https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/skinwalkers-inside-the-pentagon/

Of course he could be talking about the database they got from MUFON I suppose, but I think ultimately all this talk of UFO/UAP is a smoke screen tacked on to "the tail end of the project" for these guys using $22 million of tax payer dollars to "focus on other mysteries" because Bigelow is into that stuff.
 

jackfrostvc

Active Member
Bigelow is a believer

Getting access to DB's with 100's of thousands of records is soemthing obviously worth it to them. It is publicly searchable, which is why they would want to see what could be accessed from adversaries. If the DIA wanted the DB , you mention they could could just access it. Yes, but record at a time. Having the whole DB enables them to have the whole DB to do whatever they want .. And it wasnt just the MUFON DB, Bigelow had purchased DB's from internatioanl sources and he had also records of pilot reports
 

jackfrostvc

Active Member
Look at the Edward Snowden leak of a document titled
"THE ART OF DECEPTION : TRAINING FOR A NEW GENERATION OF ONLINE COVERT OPERATIONS
It's a 2014 Counter Intelligence training presentation re: infiltrating the online world etc and performing activities to shape a narrative to deceive groups of people for various reasons.

Look at slides: 35-37 which are believed to be faked UFOs .

This is it below:
https://edwardsnowden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/the-art-of-deception-training-for-a-new.pdf

And this is an analysis someone did of some of the psycological things mentioned in the slides:
https://mindhacks.com/2014/06/28/a-spooks-guide-to-the-psychology-of-deception/

Here's a couple of slides from it

1635640222618.png

1635640244590.png

1635640284034.png
 
Last edited:

NorCal Dave

Active Member
Bigelow is a believer

Getting access to DB's with 100's of thousands of records is soemthing obviously worth it to them. It is publicly searchable, which is why they would want to see what could be accessed from adversaries. If the DIA wanted the DB , you mention they could could just access it. Yes, but record at a time. Having the whole DB enables them to have the whole DB to do whatever they want .. And it wasnt just the MUFON DB, Bigelow had purchased DB's from internatioanl sources and he had also records of pilot reports
I'm a little dense to be sure. For clarification let me try to sum up what I think your getting at, so we're on the same page:

1. DIA and other government groups want to know if UFO/UAP reports from the general public, piolets and maybe foreign governments MIGHT be actual observations of secret or clandestine US equipment. Such as commercial piolets seeing UFOs in the '60s that turned out to be Project Oxcart/A12/SR71 sightings.

2. Even though MUFONs database is publicly available, DIA types wanted all of it, as well as anything true believer Bigelow had.

3. People like Lataski are really Counter Intell operatives that play along with the UFO/UAP and other Skinwalker Ranch type mysteries things, like a confidence man to convince Senator Reid to help craft a contract with Bigelow's companies to obtain said databases.

4. Having obtained the databases, other Counter Intell folks like Elizondo run around with Tom Delong and appear on Joe Rogan's show to, in effect, wave his right hand around saying "holy crap look at this!" so we don't look at what his left hand is doing. Going through he databases.

Yes? No? Maybe?
 
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