Two planes near-miss over New York Airport

Giddierone

Senior Member.
I orginally saw this on social media and am surprised to see it repeated on the mainstream BBC News website without any further analysis. It seems to be an obvious perspective trick. Surely we know exactly which two aircraft are being filmed here and their actual distance apart?

In fact i'm sure that anyone living in a reasonably busy area for airtraffic can go outside right now and replicate this exact illusion using their smartphone.

Screenshot 2024-07-11 at 16.22.41.png


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/crgen25y31xo
 
I orginally saw this on social media and am surprised to see it repeated on the mainstream BBC News website without any further analysis. It seems to be an obvious perspective trick. Surely we know exactly which two aircraft are being filmed here and their actual distance apart?
Newsweek has better information.

While catastrophe was avoided, at one point the two aircraft were only 725 feet apart due to an apparent communication error by air traffic control at Syracuse Hancock International Airport. One plane was instructed to take off by the airport's air traffic control, despite another being cleared for landing on the same runway

https://www.newsweek.com/planes-nea...faa-investigation-air-traffic-control-1923699
 
We don't know if it's an illusion or not (or how much)

A little more detail:
Article:
Published: Jul. 10, 2024 at 2:17 PM PDT|Updated: 18 hours ago
SYRACUSE, N.Y. (CNN) – Police dashcam footage shows two regional jets coming frighteningly close to each other in the air on Monday.

It happened in the skies over New York state near Syracuse Hancock Airport.

The incident involved a Delta Connection flight that was taking off and an American Eagle flight that was about to land.

According to the website FlightRadar24, the planes came within 700-1,000 feet of each other vertically. It is unclear how close they were horizontally.

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating, but so far has not classified the incident as a "close call."



It's a dashcam video, and it seems like the local police thought it was significant - which might be why it ended up in the media.



Monday, so probably July 1st, shadows look very roughly around noon.

Location: 43.1225949,-76.1413153
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.122...2iW4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu
 
Maybe it just appeared closer in person. The definition of a near-miss appears to be less than 500ft, rather than the ~700ft mentioned above.

External Quote:
Definition. A near midair collision is defined as an incident associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crewmember stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft.
Source: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip_html/part2_enr_section_1.16.html#:~:text=A near midair collision is,hazard existed between two or
 
External Quote:
According to the website FlightRadar24, the planes came within 700-1,000 feet of each other vertically. It is unclear how close they were horizontally.
How you can look it up on FR24 and not know the horizontal distance as well as the vertical is beyond me..

I cannot find the event. ADSB Exchange is being odd, the date I select is not the date it shows..
 
How you can look it up an FR and not know the horizontal distance as well as the vertical is beyond me..
If one is landing and one is taking off then at some point the vertical distance is 0.

I'm also having trouble finding it it.
 
For reference:
Article:
Vertical separation is achieved by requiring aircraft to use a prescribed altimeter pressure setting within designated airspace, and to operate at different levels expressed in terms of altitude or flight level.

ICAO specify minimum vertical separation for IFR flight as 1000 ft (300 m) below FL290 and 2000 ft (600 m) above FL290, except where Reduced Vertical Separation Minima (RVSM) apply. Most national authorities follow a similar rule, but may specify a different level at which the rule changes.

If, during an emergency situation, it is not possible to ensure that the applicable horizontal separation can be maintained, emergency separation of half the applicable vertical separation minimum may be used. This means that a 1000 ft vertical separation minimum may be reduced to 500 ft and 2000 ft vertical separation minimum may be reduced to 1000 ft. All flight crews concerned must be advised if emergency separation is used.

The use of emergency separation is described in ICAO Doc 4444, 15.7.1.

725 ft. separation is not normal, but if both aircraft are aware of each other, I wouldn't be overly concerned.

The screenshot leading the page makes the aircraft look closer to each other than they were, due to perspective.

For comparison, a Bombardier CRJ is ~100 ft. long, depending on the model. (Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CRJ#Specifications )

The crew of the CRJ coming in to land is to be commended for situational awareness; a runway collision is often a disaster. If the reporting is true, air traffic control screwed up.
 
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If the article was published on Jul 10 and says Monday without any specific date would that make it the 8th?
 

Attachments

If one is landing and one is taking off then at some point the vertical distance is 0.
Not if the aircraft coming in to land does a go-around.
Article:
Flight radar data shows that the plane flew upward over the runway to an altitude of around 1,800 feet as the Delta Bombardier CRJ700 began its ascent.

While the planes avoided a catastrophic crash, which would have endangered all 159 onboard the two jets, at one point they were only 725 feet apart.


As soon as the aircraft start to fly off in different directions, they have lateral separation.
 
Here's a recreation from the perspective of AAL 5511 (the landing plane). The Delta plane isn't lined up with the runway due to incomplete ADS-B data.



It would have been a lot worse if they had not been instructed to go around
 
It would have been a lot worse if they had not been instructed to go around
I diagree with that. Your simulation shows the incoming aircraft behind the departing aircraft until they're past the runway, so if the incoming aircraft had landed, there may well have been no collision (but loss of horizontal separation). (That is presuming the departing aircraft didn't expedite their take-off roll when they learned of the incoming aircraft.)

I expect the FAA is going to investigate this incident because there was a risk of a runway collision, not because of the loss of separation in the air.
 
Just adding this analysis that I saw on Twitter. Not quite sure how interpret it but it's saying 10k ft or separation.

Source: https://x.com/FlightSimIt/status/1811411672172527847


Also, If the planes are identical it seems clear from the video that one appears larger than the other. Perhaps the eyewitnesses thought they were planes of different sizes and much closer together?

It seems the media outlets reporting this could do their nervous summer holiday flying public a service by inserting the word "apparent" into their headlines.
 
If one is landing and one is taking off then at some point the vertical distance is 0.

But if you look at the location of the Midas store on Google Earth, the planes are clearly due south of there, which is a point 0.75 miles beyond the end of the runway. Whilst one plane is clearly taking off, as one can see from its angle of ascent, the other plane ( the initially higher one ) has long passed the point where it could be said to be landing.
 
I had a look at this yesterday.

Looking at the dashcam video, the apparent "crossing point" is NOT their closest approach. The Delta plane has already veered to the right (closer to the camera) and the AA plane has just started to turn left after aborting the approach.

Where they appear to cross is above right hand end of the Midas garage, slightly west of due south.So as they appear to cross they are about 1200ft apart horizontally

1720774375053.png
1720774406418.png



1720774394563.png


The altitude reading on FlightRadar 24 doesn't update very frequently. The Delta plane is reading 1300ft for several seconds (while it is climbing), and the AA one reads 1875ft.

But it's notable that the ratio of the altitudes is very close to the ratio of the distances, which explains why they appear to be aligned visually from the ground:

1720774514052.png


(the EDV5421 plane should be facing the other way, really!)
 
Just adding this analysis that I saw on Twitter. Not quite sure how interpret it but it's saying 10k ft or separation.
External Quote:
I got 718 ft at the point of closest approach (PCA), but who's counting. The AAL jet started a go around fairly early, but then lingered around 1600-1800 ft for some time on the runway heading. Meanwhile, the DAL jet was climbing towards them like a normal takeoff, I presume. There was about 627 ft of vertical distance and 350 ft of lateral distance between them at PCA (15:52:52Z). By the time the aircraft were co-altitude, there was more than 10k ft of lateral separation.
Generally, in civil aviation, mid-air collisions (and mishaps involving wake vortices) are avoided by keeping aircraft positively apart.

One way to do this is to assign them different altitudes: if one aircraft flies at 5000 ft and the other at 6000 ft, there is no way they can collide (if they use the same altitude standard). The difference in assigned altitude is called "vertical separation", and it would be 1000 ft. in this example.

Another way to keep aircraft separated is to ensure that they're in different locations over the ground. If their tracks are far enough apart and don't intersect, they can't collide either. This is "lateral separation".
Article:
110070-2.jpg


When a bunch of aircraft come in to land, they're often lined up on the same track, and changing altitude, so then the distance between them is used to keep them apart (2.5 nm at minimum, often more).

If you have at least one type of separation ensured, then that's safe.

In this case, as the incoming aircraft executed the go-around, it was flying above the runway, so on the same track as the aircraft taking off. But in this phase, the minimal altitude difference was 627 ft. according to the tweet you cited, so the emergency standard of 500 ft. of vertical separation was not breached: the aircraft were safe.

After that, one aircraft broke left, so now they had lateral separation since they were on diverging tracks, and could not collide: the aircraft were safe.

The 10,000 ft at equal altitude mentioned in the tweet do not matter from a safety perspective, since it was more important that the aircraft were flying away from each other at the time; 10,000 ft wouldn't be enough to ensure separation anyway. It's just an interesting data point.

So, despite the spectacular police video, there was never a risk of a mid-air collision. But there could well have been a risk of a runway collision, had the incoming aircraft attempted to land while the other aircraft was still commencing its take-off.

As it turned out, the departing aircraft would probably have taken off before the incoming aircraft, but the incoming aircraft would have had to contend with wake turbulence from the departing aircraft. Wake turbulence is like a horizontal whirlwind behind an aircraft that is the stronger the heavier the aircraft is, and it can affect aircraft flying too closely behind. Aborting the approach and going around ensured a safe landing for the incoming aircraft.



Exceptions to separation rules can happen when aircraft are aware of each other, e.g. the spectacular approach to LAX when two airliners are coming in to land on the parallel runways at the same time, or in military formation flying.

Airliners are equipped with a TCAS system that tracks other aircraft in the air, and commands pilots to take evasive action when it detects an immediate collision risk.
 
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