Trying to create a simple Flat Earth experiment

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
Long time reader, first time poster. Definitely NOT a flat earther.


I am looking to create a simple experiment that just shows a sun/moon reflecting correctly on a curved surface, so it is mimicking the reflections from water on a globe. I have reflective tape (I don't actually know what it's called, it's from my shop) and I covered a long piece of cardboard with it. The idea is simple: bend the cardboard, film a quick full moon rising and setting.. however the flat cardboard I covered with reflective tape, is reflecting the light only in one direction instead of symmetrically.

I am wondering, do I just need different material? I just want it to be as close to water as possible for objectivity.


The cardboard is laying flat in those images, but if it weren't, I'd get the same reflection no matter how I curved it.
 

tinkertailor

Senior Member
I'm not very knowledgeable on the physics-type stuff so I'll leave that to other members, but welcome to the team! Looks like you will fit in nicely and it's good you've got a human helping you, I bet not having opposable thumbs can be a real detriment to proper debunking! ;)
 

deirdre

Senior Member
i dont really understand what you are trying to do.. but a quick cheap test..aluminum foil? i dont have the flashlight perfectly placed but i think you can get the drift from this pic'

P1020560.JPG
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
Just a very simple curved surface and a light. The material I threw together was smearing all the reflections in one direction, I just wanted it to reflect normally, as I see your photo shows, so I will try that. I was trying to just throw it together for no money so this will work I think, thanks!
 

deirdre

Senior Member
Just a very simple curved surface and a light. The material I threw together was smearing all the reflections in one direction, I just wanted it to reflect normally, as I see your photo shows, so I will try that. I was trying to just throw it together for no money so this will work I think, thanks!
you can also maybe get one of those large beach balls super cheap at walmart. theyre sort of earth shaped. (or an actual globe of the earth can be covered...i'm assuming globes are earth shaped anyway! :)

not sure how far away your light woud have to be to mimic the moon.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
you can also maybe get one of those large beach balls super cheap at walmart. theyre sort of earth shaped. (or an actual globe of the earth can be covered...i'm assuming globes are earth shaped anyway! :)

not sure how far away your light woud have to be to mimic the moon.
Honestly, I would go for anything that is large and reflects like water does, the reason I went for cardboard and tape was so I could make it as big as I wanted for pretty much free at my shop. So this reflective tape must have some sort of grain to it that causes the reflection to be how it is? That's gotta be it..

Would some sort of thin sheet metal I can easily bend, reflect like water? Just hoping somebody has done this before or has any experience with any relative material here.
 

Auldy

Senior Member
Will you be trying to measure the angles of incidence and reflection @Bass In Your Face ? If so, how?

I'm not 100% sure what your experiment/methodology actually is?

Either way speed tape/gaffer tape is often composed with a fibrous "backbone" which would give it a noticeable grain.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
Will you be trying to measure the angles of incidence and reflection @Bass In Your Face ? If so, how?

I'm not 100% sure what your experiment/methodology actually is?

Either way speed tape/gaffer tape is often composed with a fibrous "backbone" which would give it a noticeable grain.
No, I just wanted to mimick how a full moon or (or sun for that matter) would look reflecting on a curved surface, showing what we observe. Nothing spectacular, however I would like to design some real experiments in the near future, with precision and better scale, whatever they may be.

I have been knee deep in Flat Earth debunking for the last month and a half (after reading up pretty much everything I could for counter arguments) and trying to understand the average FEer. Just figured at some point, a video or experiment done myself carries more integrity in a discussion.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The primary problem here is that as soon as you bend the cardboard a noticeable , the curvature is going to be vastly more than the surface of a body of water on the Earth.

Over a distance of a few tens of miles, the surface of a lake is essentially flat. It curves, just not a lot. So a full moon reflecting off a lake is not going to look much different to a full moon reflecting off a mile-wide perfectly flat mirror.

But your more immediate problem is forming any image. The tape has too diffuse a surface, you need something more shiny, like mylar film:

http://hydrobuilder.com/space-paper-platinum-reflective-mylar-film-4-x-25-2-mil.html?dzid=csegps_HBRMF25&gclid=Cj0KEQjw1v66BRCV-6rh6s-Biu8BEiQAelpui1L2P69bZg7QjuH8QedLtxLvLxuKJtB5d1B6Llilcy0aAnx-8P8HAQ
 

mik

Member
The appearance of the reflection will largely depend on the curvature of the reflector. The tolerances to simulate earth's curvature are quite small as the drop would be less than 0.1mm per meter.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
The primary problem here is that as soon as you bend the cardboard a noticeable , the curvature is going to be vastly more than the surface of a body of water on the Earth.

Over a distance of a few tens of miles, the surface of a lake is essentially flat. It curves, just not a lot. So a full moon reflecting off a lake is not going to look much different to a full moon reflecting off a mile-wide perfectly flat mirror.
Right, yea I know, the curve is so slight that a flat surface will mimic it just fine, the only point of the experiment I was trying to make is that the surface doesn't have to be perfectly flat in order to reflect things the way we see them, I just wanted the curve to be very obvious, as to cover my bases if there were a counter-argument. It was just a quick idea I had during work, tried to throw it together while I was actually at work.

Yes that material is what I would need, thanks alot! I figure in the near future I will try to make several Flat Earth experiments that are scaled more accurately and lead to a more detailed conclusion, I've only made simple graphics to help support my globe arguments, figured real world experiments are the next step.
 

JFDee

Senior Member
The appearance of the reflection will largely depend on the curvature of the reflector. The tolerances to simulate earth's curvature are quite small as the drop would be less than 0.1mm per meter.
It should be no problem to bend normal glass - like from a picture frame - to such a curve and probably further. Put some dark cloth or paper underneath and it will resemble a water surface. The angle of reflection is also important; smaller viewing angles w/r to to the surface and the mirrored object will give higher reflectivity.
 
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Hofnarr

Member
First of all: welcome here.
Second: I want that cat, its so fluffy!

Third: For a water-like surface I suggest some gloss-paint on an already rounded surface. My first thought was a globe, but maybe the scale is to small to really simulate earth. But every other rounded sourface would suffice.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm still not clear what it is you are trying to demonstrate, or what claim you are trying to debunk. Can you give an example of someone making such a claim?

I'd suspect this one:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html
But it's hard to understand what exactly their problem is.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member
I'm still not clear what it is you are trying to demonstrate, or what claim you are trying to debunk. Can you give an example of someone making such a claim?

I'd suspect this one:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html
But it's hard to understand what exactly their problem is.
It sounds like they're trying to recreate Herodotus' experiment using a shadow clock, but with a reflective surface and the way the moon reacts on water etc.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
I'm still not clear what it is you are trying to demonstrate, or what claim you are trying to debunk. Can you give an example of someone making such a claim?

I'd suspect this one:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html
But it's hard to understand what exactly their problem is.
That's pretty much it. It was such a stupid argument, I figured I'd reproduce the image (like the one you posted) pretty easy.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That's pretty much it. It was such a stupid argument, I figured I'd reproduce the image (like the one you posted) pretty easy.
Well, you don't want a simple mirrored surface then. You get the "path to the horizon" because of the rippling of the surface of the water. You'd need to duplicate the ripples, making them very small, but still keeping the overall surface essentially flat.

Here's some aluminum foil, gently crinkled by pressing it multiple times against the carpet, and then smoothed as flat as possible. Note the flashlight behind.
20160614-164118-7x1fc.jpg

20160614-164248-zy6ix.jpg

And that's the "sun over water effect". Any very slight curve introduced to duplicate that of the Earth would have no real effect.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
That's exactly what I wanted to do lol, I'll whip this up tomorrow. The curve was only to show it as obvious as possible, so I could clearly say "this is curved, and reflecting how we observe it in reality".. and another use of the materials would be with a sharp curve, and the sun coming over the horizon as if it were seen from orbit. It seems my small problem has been solved, thank you! I should have thought about aluminum foil, don't know how I overlooked that.
 

Chew

Senior Member
From the horizon??

If the Sun is reflecting as far as the flat earth horizon then the flat earth Sun is far, far, far beyond the circumference of the disc, i.e. far past the flat earth ice wall, far south of the Sun's farthest declination of 23.5° South for the winter.
 

Nathan Grieg

New Member
Did you ever complete this experiment? I will definitely link to it if you have done so.

Please let me know the link.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
Yes I did, ended up makin a graphic to use in a debate on twitter.

Didn't spend much time on it but it clearly proves it's point. The comparison photo in the bottom right is taken directly from an FE meme that I was replying to.

 
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