This one wont go away...(Passport Inferno How?)

Mat

Member
JaGDl.jpg

I once saw a video trying to explain it, but folks, can we agree this is unexplainable without retort to shenanigans?

Mat
 

Mat

Member
I take it you have read this detailed discussion, which makes it seem quite explainable to me:

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

Yes, and this video (which I think does a better job, but still to my skeptical mind, no job): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg_QcBiGi-k&feature=plcp


Can you explain what bits of the above you find lacking?

Both the site and the video don't offer an explanation that convinces me at all. They seem plausible. Sure, its possible that the passport could have been carried from the cabin (from a briefcase or shirt pocket, perhaps? Or did the hijacker have it in one hand, box cutter in the other?) onto the street but the account does not seem plausible to me in the way that it must seem plausible to you.


Neither of us has much to latch onto here, personally, i find this one of the biggest mysteries of that day.

I had forgotten or not known this fact:

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.
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That just seems very conveniently fishy to me! Like... if you were going to plan the passport, that would be the best way. You couldn't just leave it on the street in case it didn't get found.

Do you not find anything about 911 mysterious?


Cheers

Mat
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You claim it's "unexplainable without retort to shenanigans". But the explanation does not resort to shenanigans. How to do you reconcile these two things?

This is entirely an argument from personal incredulity. You personally finding things implausible is irrelevant if you can't explain why they are implausible. Almost the entirely of 9/11 "evidence" presented over the years has been "that looks weird".

 

Mat

Member
You claim it's "unexplainable without retort to shenanigans". But the explanation does not resort to shenanigans. How to do you reconcile these two things?


I think that the magic passport explanation is very implausible, possible, but very implausible.

Whereas the shenanigans explanation makes total sense within the context of the "inside job" hypothesis. I guess I am being circular there, but my point is that this is not something that can be accepted simply as having a simple and obvious and plausible explanation.

If it is to you, cool, we have different thresholds.

This is entirely an argument from personal incredulity.


Yes it is, guilty, but standing by that. Dont forget we are not talking about a simple phenomenon preceded by a known chain of events, 911 is a huge jumble of possibilities, whatever story you choose to take. You seem to be a champion of the official story. I am not a champion of any story, official or truther.


Almost the entirely of 9/11 "evidence" presented over the years has been "that looks weird".

Yes, and then when people try to say why, Government champions such as yourself will attack them, eg the experts who question the weirdness.

Mick, you have the rude habbit of not answering questions (and my PM). Im not bothered really on a personal level but FYI it makes you look sour. Assuming that isn't the real you, can you please answer my question: is there nothing you find mysterious about 911?
 

Noble1965

New Member
Banned
What I find mysterious is that so many use emotion and paranoia to come to conclusions. More like jump to conclusions....
 

Noble1965

New Member
Banned
More so the "truther" direction...

I don't have to conclude anything more than that competent and qualified people have performed a complete investigation. I see no evidence that anything else has happened.

In order to be a "truther", one has to fist conclude that those performing the official investigation are incompetent and unqualified...and then they have to accept that those who never had ANYTHING to do with any investigation, have found the truth on the internet, posted by those who never set foot on the scene, never studied physics, had no access to any part of these building. And just happen to be correct based on their distrust of "the government".

Sorry...I'd rather put my faith in those qualified and educated...than those who insist that we are being lied to based on their personal distrust and paranoia. Just as I do with the whole chemtrail hoax.

I have more reason to distrust the "truthers", about both 9/11 and "chemtrails", than I do the official positions.
 

Mat

Member
More so the "truther" direction...

I agree. I would go as far to say much more so the truther direction. The government side is more about disengagement from debate than paranoia speculation.

The middle path is the skeptical path.

I don't have to conclude anything more than that competent and qualified people have performed a complete investigation. I see no evidence that anything else has happened.

In order to be a "truther", one has to fist conclude that those performing the official investigation are incompetent and unqualified...

Or compromised... or pressured... I mean, reasonably, im sure that everyone on the governments side is not the perfect investigator, witness etc


and then they have to accept that those who never had ANYTHING to do with any investigation, have found the truth on the internet, posted by those who never set foot on the scene, never studied physics, had no access to any part of these building. And just happen to be correct based on their distrust of "the government".

Agreed... but there are many experts against the government who do not fit that mould.

Laters
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Mick, you have the rude habbit of not answering questions (and my PM). Im not bothered really on a personal level but FYI it makes you look sour. Assuming that isn't the real you, can you please answer my question: is there nothing you find mysterious about 911?

You sent me a question in a PM? I don't see it. You PMed me a while ago, but it did not seem like it needed an answer, sorry if it did.

I'm really a pleasant and likely fellow, it just does not always come across in the written word.

Mysterious? Thats a roomy word. There are many things about 9/11 that I don't know exactly what happened. But of the events of the day itself I can't really say I'd apply the word "mysterious" to any of them.

Let's look at this passport issue. There's two main explanations:

The "Official Story"
- Suqami's name was on the passenger list
- He was near the front of the plane when it hit the building and disintegrated
- Several parts of the plane and its contents, including body parts, made it thought the building and out the other side
- Vast amounts of paper were ejected from the building by the explosion
- Explosions push large quantities of air
- Someone found the passport and gave it to a policeman.

The alternate story
- Someone who knew the plane was going to fly into the building had the passport
- He waited in New York until after it did, and then gave the passport to a policeman

Yes, the survival of this one passport is improbable. But on a day when millions of things happen, then some of them are going to be one in a million, and a lot of them are going to simply be one in a hundred.
 

Mat

Member
You sent me a question in a PM? I don't see it. You PMed me a while ago, but it did not seem like it needed an answer, sorry if it did.

Appology accepted:p


I'm really a pleasant and likely fellow, it just does not always come across in the written word.

I suffer a similar ailment!


Let's look at this passport issue. There's two main explanations...

Yes, the survival of this one passport is improbable. But on a day when millions of things happen, then some of them are going to be one in a million, and a lot of them are going to simply be one in a hundred.

You make that case very well and in a way I hadn't considered. I guess in a sense you are saying that it is of the same status as an amazing coincidence.

We might have found a receipt for a Skymal in the streets too, from another passenger, but because that doesnt have the significance relevant to the case, it gets ignored. So yes, I am now changing my opinion on the plausibility of this magic passport. Thank you for that:)

Mat
 

Noble1965

New Member
Banned
Go ahead...name one or two...

And I still see no reason to disagree with the findings of the investigation. And EVERYTHING i have ever heard from truthers has been BS...from "freefall speed" to holographic airplanes to the use of the words "pull it" for building 7.

I see NOTHING that shows the official investigation is wrong...but I see MANY claims by those who OBVIOUSLY have never studied engineering or physics....which are obviously wrong.

I have yet to see a SINGLE claim made by truthers which isn't ridiculous on its surface...
 

Spongebob

Active Member
800px-LisaFrostMileageCard.jpg

Lisa Anne Frost was a passenger on Flight 175. Her United Airlines mileage card was recovered from Ground Zero.


775px-CeeCee_Lyles_Personal_Effects.jpg
personal effects of CeeCee Lyles found at the scene in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, where Flight 93 crashed. Used as an exhibit in the Moussaoui trial


776px-John_Talignani_Drivers_Licence.jpg
driver's license of John Talignani found at the scene in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, where Flight 93 crashed. Used as an exhibit in the Moussaoui trial

800px-Flight_11_Seat_Cushion.jpg
A picture taken by Pete Burke on 9/11. The original caption reads "On Albany Street, two blocks south of WTC 2, Two men examine a seat cushion from AA Flight 11. 8:52 a.m.

There are countless other objects which are far too numerous to post...
 

Mat

Member
Yes Guys, as said above, I can see I should change my view of the signifigance of the passport.

As a lifelong Cartesian skeptic (which seems more pejorative than noble, these days), I am often forced to admit I was mistaken. It's not an unpleasant experience and it is one that all such skeptics inevitably have.

By the way Bob, I was sold by Mick's reasoning (which came first in the thread) more than your evidence images, but had I not apprehended the "coincidence" quality I would have been sold by your images.

So to my mind, it still might have been a plant by the Illuminati Ninjas, but assuming they don't exist, it was probably just a fluke jettison of the passport etc.

Thanks for the direction:)

Mat
 

BrassTacks

New Member
So to my mind, it still might have been a plant by the Illuminati Ninjas, but assuming they don't exist, it was probably just a fluke jettison of the passport etc.

Assuming they don't exist? Seriously? Walking around the streets of NY carrying charred airliner seats, life jackets, airplane parts, passports, etc. just waiting for the planes to crash & debris to start falling so that they can run around tossing them on the ground?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Assuming they don't exist? Seriously? Walking around the streets of NY carrying charred airliner seats, life jackets, airplane parts, passports, etc. just waiting for the planes to crash & debris to start falling so that they can run around tossing them on the ground?

Yeah, that's the one. While everyone was looking up. No problem.

Actually THERE IS AN ENGINEERING EQUATION for the statistical likelihood of surviving powerful high-speed impacts. I cannot drag it up exactly, but you can get an inkling of what the qualifying terms might be with a small thought experiment.

High surface area? Good for deceleration and damping. Good survival prospects.
High density? High kinetic energy storage capability. Rotten survival prospects.
Toughness? Good.
Hardness? Good, as long as the density is low.

How does a passport qualify? Rather well, actually. Kinetic energy varying as the square of the velocity (1/2 times M times V squared), then the less M there is, the better, as the V will do you in.

If you need further confirmation, then the moments after the impact were quite graphic. An eighty-ton aircraft carrying twelve tons of kerosine traveling at 800 f.p.s. ruptures with a fuel/air explosion in semi-contained circumstances, yet THOUSANDS OF A4 PAPER SHEETS ARE SEEN FLUTTERING DOWN in direct consequence. Shouldn't they also have burned?
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
The Government will lie about anything it suits them to, Iran Contra, Waco, JFK,WMD. They plan for it years in advance. See Wiki Operation Northwoods as an example, sound familiar and then people wonder why there are 'Conspiracy Theories'. Its simple, they are capable of all of it and how easy to censor dissenters. If necessary simply trump up some 'tax evasion' bunk to discredit and imprison them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag proposals that originated in 1962 within the United States government, and which the Kennedy administration rejected.[2] The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro.[3] One part of Operation Northwoods was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."

Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

According to currently released documentation, none of the operations became active under the auspices of the Operation Northwoods proposals.
Content from External Source
Project for the New American Century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#.22New_Pearl_Harbor.22

"New Pearl Harbor"

Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (51).[14]

Though not arguing that Bush administration PNAC members were complicit in those attacks, other social critics such as commentator Manuel Valenzuela and journalist Mark Danner,[39][40][41] investigative journalist John Pilger, in New Statesman,[42] and former editor of The San Francisco Chronicle Bernard Weiner, in CounterPunch,[43] all argue that PNAC members used the events of 9/11 as the "Pearl Harbor" that they needed––that is, as an "opportunity" to "capitalize on" (in Pilger's words), in order to enact long-desired plans.
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U

Unregistered

Guest
And what does that have to do with the passport surviving?

Merely saying,it's no wonder people question things like the passport surviving when at least some people are aware of the 'capabilities, willingness and incentives' of Government to fabricate false flag crimes if it suits. But of course the passport is only one of many anomolies. I guess if the flight recorders of even one aircraft had been recovered and made public it would help people accept the convenient discovery of 'incriminating paperwork' surviving. WTC7 falling in 7 seconds as if it had been a perfect demolition is a bigger smoking gun to many and half the alleged 'highjackers' being alive and well and thousands of miles away a day later also raised a few eyebrows but suppose I shouldn't mention these if its off topic
 

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