The Global Cross-Hair Enigma that looks like Hair Dryer Burns

DLoVe

New Member
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The above two slides are from a talk by famous UFO investigator Jacques Vallee. The talk came up because scientist Garry Nolan (who sometimes works with Vallee) mentioned a later aspect of the case (a star-shaped mark on a photo and a giant UFO nobody noticed) in a recent interview with Tucker Carlson.

But someone in the comments pointed out the likely cause in April 2022:
The Paisley Wave 4 months ago
With all respect for Dr. Vallee, the 'crosshair' marks may have a simple explanation. Search for images of blowdryers and you'll see many, especially the older ones, have metal crosshair-shaped grills at their openings. They get hot and can burn the skin leaving marks corresponding with their shape, a crosshair. Note that most of these appear on women, who are more likely to use blow dryers.
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And indeed, there is a strong resemblance:

Vallee discussed this hypothesis in the video, but, for reasons that are not clear, he dismissed it.

Of course, we know, we've tried to look at that and say, What kind of symbol is it? Well, the first thing we thought about is, if you look at our hairdryer, you know, you turn the hairdryer towards you. And you look at the end of the hairdryer, it looks like this. Okay, so we thought maybe, you know, this, this woman, I mean, women use hairdryer more than we guys do. So maybe she burned herself with their hairdryer. Well, if you try to do that, you're going to get burned, alright. But it's not going to look like this. Okay, you will have a burn. And so, so it's not that. Although in some cases, the dimensions are pretty much the same as the ones on the grid in the front of your hairdryer. But it's not always the same pattern. As you could see the pattern changes. Then you look at, you know, ancient literature and symbol books of symbols, and so on. And there is a pattern that looks exactly like that. Three, concentric circles, and radio lines. And that's a pattern of Atlantis.
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As well as the dimensions matching, all of the various shapes are shaped of hairdryer grills:

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The marks look very like superficial burns from a brief contact.
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The partial marks could obviously come from a hairdryer at an angle (as seen in the medical journal image).

So his dismissal of hairdryers (and the subsequent leap into Atlantean symbology) makes no sense. Hairdryer is by far the most likely explanation.

UPDATE: The hairdryer owned by the individual in Vallee's case matches her burn:
@Mick West Thought I'd re-post this to Mick directly as it's relevant to the topic and references the same talk given by Vallee about the marks. In that talk Vallee also makes the following claim about a woman who he was able to bring to a "dermatological research department" when her mark showed up a second time:

"The dermatologists said they'd never seen anything like that before. That it wasn't on the skin, that it was under the skin; it was in the derma not in the epiderma. That it was, everything they could think of it wasn't. It wasn't a virus. It wasn't a bacteria. It wasn't a laser(burn). It wasn't a burn. It was not an allergy. It was not any of those things."

Timestamp link to that part of his presentation:
Source: https://youtu.be/PeSe0BDtPMA?t=320


It would be great if Mick could contact Jacques to inquire specifically about this case as it seems to challenge the notion that all marks are attributable to hair dryer burns.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It would be great if Mick could contact Jacques to inquire specifically about this case as it seems to challenge the notion that all marks are attributable to hair dryer burns.
I did. He thinks that one might not be from a hairdryer. But there's not a lot you can do with it now.
 
These hair dryer cases are not the first time that apparently self-inflicted "UFO burns" have been reported.

After her "classic" 1980 encounter, Betty Cash supposedly suffered skin burns. Dr. Gary Posner wrote,

"I recall a photo being shown [on the April 1, 1982, edition of ABC-TV's That's Incredible] of Betty's arms, with discrete, round, sunburn-type rashes that immediately caused me to suspect that she had created them by covering her arms with a garment containing circular cutouts and then exposing herself to sunlight (or a sunlamp)."

https://badufos.blogspot.com/2013/11/between-beer-joint-and-some-kind-of.html


Stephan Michalak in Canada claims to have suffered burns, in a grid-like pattern, after a UFO experience.

https://library-archives.canada.ca/...podcast/Pages/ufo-falcon-lake-incident-2.aspx
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
These hair dryer cases are not the first time that apparently self-inflicted "UFO burns" have been reported.

After her "classic" 1980 encounter, Betty Cash supposedly suffered skin burns. Dr. Gary Posner wrote,

"I recall a photo being shown [on the April 1, 1982, edition of ABC-TV's That's Incredible] of Betty's arms, with discrete, round, sunburn-type rashes that immediately caused me to suspect that she had created them by covering her arms with a garment containing circular cutouts and then exposing herself to sunlight (or a sunlamp)."

https://badufos.blogspot.com/2013/11/between-beer-joint-and-some-kind-of.html
There is no way that such discrete, round patterns could be produced by radiation from a distant object.
Content from External Source
Stephan Michalak in Canada claims to have suffered burns, in a grid-like pattern, after a UFO experience.

https://library-archives.canada.ca/...podcast/Pages/ufo-falcon-lake-incident-2.aspx
The upshot of this whole thing is that as he stepped back from viewing this thing, it was very hot and very bright. The thing tilted, started swinging around in a counter-clockwise direction, bringing some vent holes or what appeared to be vent holes in front of him. These hit him in the chest, knocked him down, and this thing took off. To shorten the story somewhat, he eventually became very ill. He started nauseating, he started seeing spots, he lost everything in his stomach. Eventually, over the next few weeks, he lost a great deal of weight. His lymphocyte count went down drastically, almost lethal.

All of the signs were either of a cancerous kind of thing or of radiation burning. He was taken to Pinawa, it's a local establishment. No radiation whatsoever. Eventually, this thing calmed down and he went back to work. About nine months later, he collapsed at work. When they rushed him into the hospital, there was a series of dots on his chest. These proceeded to come back every three months for about 14 months, about a year and a half, there about, let's say.

As it turns out, the radiation at the scene was a little higher than normal, unusual. Dad's blood cells and lymphocyte counts were a little off, yes, that's true, that's a fact, but there wasn't enough radiation to close the entire Whiteshell Provincial Park or form any kind of a public safety issue.
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P.S. Metabunk's link policy requires posting a quote alongside the link. The policies are linked under "Info" in the nav bar.
 

lewis

New Member
My mum had this happen to her many years ago while she was living in Spain.

She was driving to work alone and felt something strange but had to continue driving and forgot all about it by the time she had gotten to work.

Later that evening after getting home from work and having a shower - my step dad noticed the mark on her and she was so confused by it she took photos and kept them and showed me many years later.

This is my mum, she would never lie about something like this and she has no reason to either. To say all of these people are purposely burning themselves with hairdryers etc is absolutely insane.

(Sorry thr image is a photo of a photo so the quality isn't great)
 

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FatPhil

Senior Member.
To say all of these people are purposely burning themselves with hairdryers etc is absolutely insane.

Which is why people aren't saying that. They're saying that a decent number of them could well be accidental.
 

lewis

New Member
Which is why people aren't saying that. They're saying that a decent number of them could well be accidental.
I think my mum would know if she accidentally burned herself with a hairdryer. Sorry but this theory just doesn't fit well at all.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I think my mum would know if she accidentally burned herself with a hairdryer. Sorry but this theory just doesn't fit well at all.
There really isn't anywhere to go from here. You do not have any proof to support any other explanation and you feel that your mother would have noticed a hairdryer burn.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think my mum would know if she accidentally burned herself with a hairdryer. Sorry but this theory just doesn't fit well at all.
But there are also examples here of people who realized it was their hairdryer, and but don't remember the actual burn. My experiments show it's not that painful, and quite plausible that you could forget it, and only notice the mark days later.

I don't suppose she still has the same hairdryer?
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
I think my mum would know if she accidentally burned herself with a hairdryer. Sorry but this theory just doesn't fit well at all.

Please reread what I posted for comprehension. Nowhere in it was any statement about your mother, you're not addressing what I actually said.
 

lewis

New Member
But there are also examples here of people who realized it was their hairdryer, and but don't remember the actual burn. My experiments show it's not that painful, and quite plausible that you could forget it, and only notice the mark days later.

I don't suppose she still has the same hairdryer?
Unfortunately this was over 10 years ago and she is now living back in the UK so no chance of knowing which hairdryer (if there was one in the house)
She even had the photos developed because she was shocked by the whole incident.
 

lewis

New Member
Please reread what I posted for comprehension. Nowhere in it was any statement about your mother, you're not addressing what I actually said.
Well she has short hair for a start and was living in Spain (it was summer and definitely no need for a hairdryer), and the mark was around the chest area where she has no hair to even dry.
I also never said what I think it could be, I just know that my mum didn't do this to herself by accident or on purpose and there was definitely no hairdryer involved.
 
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LilWabbit

Senior Member
Well she has short hair for a start and was living in Spain (it was summer and definitely no need for a hairdryer), and the mark was around the chest area where she has no hair to even dry.
I also never said what I think it could be, I just know that my mum didn't do this to herself by accident or on purpose and there was definitely no hairdryer involved.

Did she go to parties in Spain? Has she ever been drunk or otherwise intoxicated? Not trying to get too personal, but there's always the possibility someone else did the hairdryer burn mark. Or she herself whilst inebriated.

For it is a hairdryer burnmark. No question about it. The match is perfect. All other theories are far more far-fetched no matter how far-fetched the hairdryer burn may seem to you.

Also, as demonstrated in @Mauro's graphs and discussed here, it's very unlikely a 10-second skin contact (required for a burn by a plastic grill hairdryer) is accidental.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
Well she has short hair for a start and was living in Spain (it was summer and definitely no need for a hairdryer), and the mark was around the chest area where she has no hair to even dry.
I also never said what I think it could be, I just know that my mum didn't do this to herself by accident or on purpose and there was definitely no hairdryer involved.

The statement that you made which I was countering was this:
To say all of these people are purposely burning themselves with hairdryers etc is absolutely insane.
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That is not a statement about any properties that your mother may or may not have. It is a statement about hypothetical people who say all instance of this occurance are insane.

My response was not to do with your mother either. It was a statement that these hypothetical people do not represent what real people are saying, and therefore your argument is a straw man.

Why are you responding to that refutation with a post that contains nothing but a discussion about properties of your mother?
 

lewis

New Member
Did she go to parties in Spain? Has she ever been drunk or otherwise intoxicated? Not trying to get too personal, but there's always the possibility someone else did the hairdryer burn mark. Or she herself whilst inebriated.

For it is a hairdryer burnmark. No question about it. The match is perfect. All other theories are far more far-fetched no matter how far-fetched the hairdryer burn may seem to you.

Also, as demonstrated in @Mauro's graphs and discussed here, it's very unlikely a 10-second skin contact (required for a burn by a plastic grill hairdryer) is accidental.
She was 50+ , so not really to be honest.
 

Ann K

Senior Member.
She was 50+ , so not really to be honest.
Lewis, parties are for everyone. There's not an age limit. :D
(I was at a party last night, and my kids are in their fifties.)

But more to the point, not every place on the body feels pain to the same extent, and I've received burns on the hip from a heating pad, so it doesn't surprise me that these marks happen without being noticed at the time. I'll have to disagree with @LilWabbit's conclusion about accidental burns. He says:
most of the images of crosshair burns on the first page of this thread featured burns on areas of skin with thicker fat layers than the forearm.
Thicker fat layers, even in people who are not obese, mean lesser pain sensitivity, so burns in places with more fat are MORE likely to be accidental, not less.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
I'll have to disagree with @LilWabbit's conclusion about accidental burns. He says:

Thicker fat layers, even in people who are not obese, mean lesser pain sensitivity, so hip burns are MORE likely to be accidental, not less.

That wasn't the main reason I articulated for the lower likelihood but rather the minimum skin contact time for a burn being longer with a plastic hairdryer grill, irrespective of fat layer.

Accidental 10-second skin contact with a hairdryer on the spots shown in the images are somewhat unlikely.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Accidental 10-second skin contact with a hairdryer on the spots shown in the images are somewhat unlikely.
which is why these burn marks aren't all that common

is there evidence behind that "on the spots", or is it simply a convenient, unsupported claim?
it seems to me that it would depend on where people put their hair driers after use, and what they do then—I know I don't have enough data on that to claim anything.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
which is why these burn marks aren't all that common

That could work as a statistical argument if most of such cases weren't uploaded on a ufologist site.

is there evidence behind that "on the spots", or is it simply a convenient, unsupported claim?
it seems to me that it would depend on where people put their hair driers after use, and what they do then—I know I don't have enough data on that to claim anything.

Maybe if someone could paint a scenario in which such a 10-second accidental skin contact on some of those spots is possible? Then we could explore its likelihood as opposed to scenarios of deliberate burns.

@Mick West's original reason for favouring accidental burns was his (unintentionally) misleading test with a metallic thermal couple.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
That could work as a statistical argument if most of such cases weren't uploaded on a ufologist site.

The number of ooopses that go unreported is unknown. If you had a little accident, would you brag to the world about it? People who are members of such online communities who would be rewarded with positive strokes from such posts are incentivised to make such posts. People who are not members of such communities are disincentivised from owning up to their clumsiness anywhere. So we can't evaluate whether "most" are reported to such sites, the bias in the only data we have is too strong.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
The number of ooopses that go unreported is unknown. If you had a little accident, would you brag to the world about it? People who are members of such online communities who would be rewarded with positive strokes from such posts are incentivised to make such posts. People who are not members of such communities are disincentivised from owning up to their clumsiness anywhere. So we can't evaluate whether "most" are reported to such sites, the bias in the only data we have is too strong.

Correct. One could argue that most of such accidents, if there indeed is a sizeable number, are soon realized and accepted as accidents and hence never reported nor uploaded anywhere.

However, neither can we assume without evidence that such unreported accidents far outnumber the reported burns. (I'm not saying you are.)

In order to even intuitively visualize the prevalence of such accidents from among the global hairdryer-owning population, I'd like someone to paint a plausible scenario of such longer skin contact by accident.

Personally I'm not able to but neither am I committed to the hypothesis that accidents are less likely.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Maybe if someone could paint a scenario in which such a 10-second accidental skin contact on some of those spots is possible? Then we could explore its likelihood as opposed to scenarios of deliberate burns.
thank you for conceding that your claim was a guess

4_41dadb7b-9b0e-4a4f-9a06-4c293af3f382.png080640_1.jpghang-your-hair-styling-tools-using-command-hooks-21820038.jpg
When you have a hair drier hung by the eyelet at the base of the handle (as in the last image), it is often free to move around somewhat, depending on what else presses against it.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
thank you for conceding that your claim was a guess

It was never anything but. 'Concession' is an unnecessarily dramatic term given we're all just throwing ideas around here.

When you have a hair drier hung by the eyelet at the base of the handle (as in the last image), it is often free to move around somewhat, depending on what else presses against it.

And yet to have the hairdryer grill contact bare skin (say, near the shoulder at that height) at a near-90-degree angle for ten seconds while the grill remains at roughly 75 degrees centigrade temperature for the entire duration.

We still need a more complete scenario than hanging hairdryers.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
and the mark was around the chest area where she has no hair to even dry.
its not her chest area, its her shoulder, its basically the exact same spot my dryer hit (post #128)when i was pretending to dry my own above-the-shoulder short hair. thats exactly where the hairdryer goes as you lean into the mirror to to tease your crown or bangs with your fingers. just saying.
1659887930626.png 55711-5176912d30ad4e29433f45bfac22c7fb.jpg
 

Ann K

Senior Member.
And yet to have the hairdryer grill contact bare skin (say, near the shoulder at that height) at a near-90-degree angle for ten seconds while the grill remains at roughly 75 degrees centigrade temperature for the entire duration.

We still need a more complete scenario than hanging hairdryers.
Perhaps, with a hanging hairdryer, a person leaning in toward the mirror to put in contact lenses or fake eyelashes.
Perhaps, with a hip burn, a person drying hair while seated on a couch, then sitting by/on it as it nestles in the crack in the cushions.
Perhaps with it falling from a person's hand as they doze off in their comfy chair.

If using a hairdryer is a customary (even daily) action, the user is unlikely to think of it as a "dangerous" appliance, and thus treats it casually. I see nothing unusual about that.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
its not her chest area, its her shoulder, its basically the exact same spot my dryer hit (post #128)when i was pretending to dry my own above-the-shoulder short hair. thats exactly where the hairdryer goes as you lean into the mirror to to tease your crown or bangs with your fingers. just saying.
1659887930626.png 55711-5176912d30ad4e29433f45bfac22c7fb.jpg

Thanks @deirdre and @Ann K for these scenarios which are helpful. Especially coming from a woman's perspective.

A corollary question:

Would you say it's not "unusual" for the hairdryer at those positions to be on / remain at the temperature of 75 degrees centigrade while staying in contact against your bare skin for roughly 10 seconds?
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
And yet to have the hairdryer grill contact bare skin (say, near the shoulder at that height) at a near-90-degree angle for ten seconds while the grill remains at roughly 75 degrees centigrade temperature for the entire duration.
Wasn't it 10s for plastic, but much shorter for metal? Metal will dump much more of its heat into the skin due to its higher conducivity (you're depleting the stored heat from a deeper depth into the metal, and there's more mass to it too). I do remember mostly metal, but the last time I saw a hairdryer was decades ago, so I am almost as far as it possible to be on the materials science of hairdryer grilles.

 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
Wasn't it 10s for plastic, but much shorter for metal?

Yes. Most hairdryers have plastic grills for this very reason. Safety. Heat guns (which resemble hairdryers) are of course another matter and have metal grills. But rarely found neatly hanging at ladies' rooms.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
Yes. Most hairdryers have plastic grills for this very reason. Safety. Heat guns (which resemble hairdryers) are of course another matter and have metal grills. But rarely found neatly hanging at ladies' rooms.

Yup, so don't get too hung up on your "10s" datapoint. As Mendel's most recent selection of photos show (which was I was searching for when I found the other thing), metal's still in use, and more capable of causing the effect seen. If people are equally nonchalent with their dryer waving independent of grille-tech, then a higher proportion of marks will be seen from the metal ones, as you need to have a much smaller boo-boo in order to obtain your reward. If they're random occurances, and all other things are equal, of course.

Were I to want to recreate the effect - for science! - I'd rather do it with a plastic one, certainly, as it's much easier to control how much a dose you give yourself, of course. However, were I to want to recreate the effect for posting to a ufo forum, technically I ought to use the same logic.
 

LilWabbit

Senior Member
Yup, so don't get too hung up on your "10s" datapoint.

It's at best indicative. Hardly a hard and fast rule.

As Mendel's most recent selection of photos show (which was I was searching for when I found the other thing), metal's still in use, and more capable of causing the effect seen.

I'm not sure the photos display metal grills. The plastic grill paint job might be of different colour and can be mistaken for metal at a distance.

If people are equally nonchalent with their dryer waving independent of grille-tech, then a higher proportion of marks will be seen from the metal ones, as you need to have a much smaller boo-boo in order to obtain your reward. If they're random occurances, and all other things are equal, of course.

Obviously hairdryers with metal grills are more likely to cause burn accidents than plastic grills. Goes without saying. Irrespective of the ballpark figure of the overall likelihood of an accidental burn.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
remain at the temperature of 75 degrees centigrade while staying in contact against your bare skin for roughly 10 seconds?
that's not a necessary condition, and 10 seconds is yet another guess

if plastic transfers heat more slowly, the starting temperature could be higher (and taper off) with a shorter contact

it's hard to remember that your likelihoods and numbers are unsupported guesses
 

Ann K

Senior Member.
You fool! Now promise me you won't follow this link
You knew I would, didn't you. I find page after page of blether about negative ions and hair, funnily enough all from places with products to sell. But I loved this clip I found:

Because there are no hard facts or "science" about the effects that negative ions have on our hair and our hair care routine, there are many controversies and opinions on the subject. But with the few facts we have, it is still safe to assume that these Negative ions have enriching effects.
(bolding mine.)
.....
Negative ions are, in general, very good for hair. They enhance your health and the overall well-being of the hair.
Content from External Source
https://himalayanlivingsalt.com/why-are-negative-ions-good-for-hair/

Amazing, isn't it, that they can say there's no facts that support their claims "but we'll just go ahead and make the claims anyway and hope you didn't notice".
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Would you say it's not "unusual" for the hairdryer at those positions to be on / remain at the temperature of 75 degrees centigrade while staying in contact against your bare skin for roughly 10 seconds?
well i never burned myself with a hairdryer, and i dont have any friends that said they did...so i think 'unusual' is an ok word. but to get the dryer in that position in my experimenting wasn't that strange feeling of a movement. i actually thought it would feel more unnatural to position it that way, but it wasnt really. i leaned into the mirror (over the sink) to pick a thick part off my mascara that i noticed.

i wouldnt need 10 seconds with my skin i'm sure. i've got this "deep burn" at the base of my thumb (top of hand) that a year later still acts up. all i can think is it's from hot water (and our water tanks are safety set to not actually burn us). i also sunburn quicker (pinker) than anyone else i know. i actually thought the pic of that guys mom was a pic of me at first because her tan with shoulder pinkness is the exact color i get :)

i personally think, like said earlier in the thread it would be more of a situation where you are doing something you dont want to stop ie youre concentrating on something else, and it takes a second or two for your brain to register what the pain is so you dont instantly remove the hairdryer. with me i imagine the situation would be that the dryer was not in fact that super hot, ergo i dont remove it right away but in essence sunburned myself slowly and like a sunburn the mark shows up a day or two later. i actually do have a pretty high tolerance for pain..probably how i buggered my thumb webbing.

for the hip, btw, in my experimenting i dropped my hairbrush, it kinda bounced behind me and as i turned and bent to pick it up the dryer did land on my hip.
 

lewis

New Member
its not her chest area, its her shoulder, its basically the exact same spot my dryer hit (post #128)when i was pretending to dry my own above-the-shoulder short hair. thats exactly where the hairdryer goes as you lean into the mirror to to tease your crown or bangs with your fingers. just saying.
1659887930626.png 55711-5176912d30ad4e29433f45bfac22c7fb.jpg
This is not the same spot, this is my mums right side - the skin you see to the left of the strap is the start of the shoulder.
I spoke with my mum about this again today and she can confirm it was DEFINITELY not done with a hairdryer. But believe what you like as most of you seem pretty adamant about this "hairdryer theory".
I'd like to add she felt a sharp pain near her shoulder whilst driving but wasn't able to stop to check and therefore forgot about it until later that evening.
 

Ann K

Senior Member.
I'd like to add she felt a sharp pain near her shoulder whilst driving but wasn't able to stop to check and therefore forgot about it until later that evening.
It seems plausible that she felt a pain from a burn that happened at some time before that, perhaps hours or even days, so it's quite likely that she did not notice it at the time the burn happened. That lag makes it easier to forget an incident to which no thought was given at the time; I do it when I trip on something, say "ouch", continue on my way, then wonder later where that bruise came from. The best we can tell you is that it looks exactly like the kind of burn pattern for which we have seen many examples from the grid on a hairdryer (many of them on people with no memory of the burn being inflicted) and I don't think any other plausible causes have been suggested.

edit to add: It even appears to be pattern number one from Jacques Vallee's chart that was posted by @Mick West

5D1C978D-3A0E-4FB3-AB33-F11E0BF0AB42.jpeg
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
This is not the same spot, this is my mums right side - the skin you see to the left of the strap is the start of the shoulder.
mine is my right side too, but im in a mirror. i understand what you think you are seeing but youre not, collar bones go the other way and women usually dont have an odd hump on their upper chest.
Not that it matters, just saying it's the same place as mine. and we're wearing almos the same shirt so i found it fun.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
mine is my right side too, but im in a mirror. i understand what you think you are seeing but youre not, collar bones go the other way and women usually dont have an odd hump on their upper chest.
Not that it matters, just saying it's the same place as mine. and we're wearing almos the same shirt so i found it fun.
In #224, the left image has a clavicle, and the right one seems to have a scapula, so is not the same injury.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
isnt the scalpula on your back?

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If you're going to switch the left-right relative positions of the images, then it's going to be hard to communicate which one is which. The scapula is indeed on your back, it's your shoulder blade. The image you've repeated above is the one with the clavicle, not the one that could be a scapula.
 
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