1. Woody

    Woody Member

    Many people are not aware of the difference between con-trail, chem-trail and high cirrus clouds. There are chem-trails and this is publically known for years, Since the 1960's and before they seeded clouds to inhance rainfall usually using Silver iodine with dry ice. One way to define the difference is the wind will blow in one direction and the clouds should be in that one direction. Since the early 1900's they have been playing up there. Also, many are unaware of mans ability to influence the weather and when deep experimentation began, that date, August 1976 when Nasa published their inadvertant modificaqtion of the weather, you can see the article here that stimulated the science communiity into its potential. http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770011718_1977011718.pdf

    Facts are, they have seeded, they do seed, but what are they using? If it is no danger, then why do they deny doing it? Two planes at the same altitude both using jet fuel, one leaves a 40 mile trail that resides for hours, the other has nothing. We will see tomorrow as the temperatures drop to -20 tonight, if there is a cloud or haze in the air, then it was put there either by emissions or another source...but it won't be natural.
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Woody, I've been studying contrails and the chemtrail theory for many years. From what I've seen, the things people point out as "chemtrails" are just normal persistent contrails. Can you explain what you think the difference is?
  3. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    Hi Woody-

    I am confused- are you talking about cloud seeding or contrails...??

    cloud seeding has and does take place- its not secret. But it does not create clouds from nothing- they burn flares of silver iodide into pre-existing rain clouds- they do this from small Cessna-type planes or from the ground via rockets and emitters - But when they do it- it doesn't leave a trail or make a cloud.

    Contrails are not cloud seeding...and we know why 2 contrails in the same sky can leave different types of trails...but that has nothing to do with cloud seeding:

    http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Rico

    Rico Active Member


    Contrail = Condensation trails. Literally, water vapour that condenses and creates a trail. Typically caused by the burning of hydrocarbon fuels in both piston and turbine engines, which creates water vapour that is exposed to the outside air. Because high altitude air are at extreme cold temperatures, which consequently means it cannot absorb excess water vapour, the vapour ejected by the air condenses into a cloud of water droplets and/or ice crystals, which makes them visible to the naked eye.

    High-cirrus cloud = Occurs around the range of 16,500' to about 45k, these are typically thin clouds composed of ice crystals. Often called cirrus, cirrocumulus, and cirrostratus depending on their appearance.

    Chemtrail = Chemical trail with an unspecific and often conflicting definition. Evidence pointing to chemtrails often show photos of airplanes that are creating contrails, and seem to confuse contrails as some kind of deliberate chemical spraying. In retrospect, those who use the term chemtrail often say that the difference between a contrail and a chemtrail is that contrails last only a few seconds while chemtrails last for hours. This is evidently false, due to dynamics between humidity and temperature at altitude. Where temperatures can be as cold as -60C at cruising altitudes, and because cold air can contain less water vapour than hot air, contrails can very much behave exactly like cirrus clouds and persist for hours.

    Chemtrails also tend to associate cloud seeding as part of it's definition, which I see has been done here. Let's not be confused with white streaks in the air here. Cloud seeding has been around for a long time and none of it is kept secret, and thus, is not a conspiracy. They are typically done in smaller aircraft that generally don't fly all that high, and are done to either make it rain, reduce the size of hail, or disperse fog. This IS weather modification, but cloudseeding isn't there to poison you or otherwise create cloud cover to fight global warming, quite the opposite in fact. It simply sends particles of which water vapour can condense around into the air/clouds.

    Finally, you mentioned that your temperature is dropping -20C. Temperature alone doesn't dictate whether there are clouds or haze in the air. It depends on humidity as well, and how the temperature drops (or in some instances rises) when you go up in altitude.
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Woody

    Woody Member

    Something apparently many do not understand not living in these Arctic conditions, at -20 there is no humidity this deep inland this late in the winter...its ALL frozen! See how long a hot cup of coffee lasts in the air, in seconds it crystalizes and disperses in the air. One year growing up it didn't go above zero the entire month of January until the last day, I have lived through hundreds of these and I always recommend to go by the natives because they know their land and skies better than anyone else. The biggest difference noticed over the years is the cleanliness of the snows. When I was young you could count the layers of snow by cutting it counting the lines of pollution. My mom told me when sshe was young she loved the white snow but would only last for a day because the coal everyone used blanketed it with a black filth within a day. Trust me, NEVER has their been clouds in our historical past when the temperatures drops this low, just low lying smog in the past.

    Secondly, because this is Minneapolis International Air Space, with hundreds of flights every hour, it is easy to spot the planes with binoculars and common sense tells me that if two planes are flying at the same altitudes and only one leaves a trail and the others do not, then there is something being emitted besides jet fuel.

    Some conspiracy threorists take this to the extreme, there is a patent out there indicating that they did try mixing agents into the fuel but the results were found to warm the air and offered no cooling effect. Some say they are mixing this into passenger airlines and their fuel, but the patent says this is not so. Some also claim this to be some form of advanced military weapon, but there is nothing to support this theory either.

    If you want to hear about our Government and its intentions you can read it here, this was praised by the joint chiefs of stafff. In order to maintain the Air Force in a strong and competitive edge they looked to the Academy and here is their report, specifically chapter 15 on "Owning the Weather." I recommend everyone to read this, its an Air Force Document.

    http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/
  6. Woody

    Woody Member

    This is actully what I term as cloud creation today. I drive for a living and they have been doing these trails for a long time. I have watched these streams gradually evolve into a haze. In fact, people in the arrowhead region have complained about this haze and the EPA in turn enacted tougher laws on the mines to clean their air blaming them on the haze. In Minnesota some news stations are now issuing a "Haze Level." The issue here is this, its now in full deployment, and by the way, it's working. This is what was said in the Congressional hearing of 2009 regarding weather modification, "Full Deployment." Further reading on Weather Modification can be viewed here in this military document, specifically chapter 15 "Owning the Weather"

    http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/
  7. Woody

    Woody Member

    Mpls -0 temps.jpg

    Here is a graph I created from the Minneapolis International Airport showing the total below zero temperatures per season for our weather station. By 2017 there will be a 50/50 chance at the current rate of never dropping below zero an entire season.
  8. Woody

    Woody Member

    The first point is to understand why they might be doing this, well, if they don't massive starvation begins. This is actually lgiical from a capitalist perspective so bare with me a moment. All the graineries are empty across the US and all the resources from previous years have been used up. In 2008 they made a claim of falling food resources spiking food prices around the world and creating chaos. For a rich man, he could care less about the people as long as he makes a buck. Just as the oil industry did after Katrina and speculate a high hurricane season that drove prices up earning this industry billions on a speculation, and so did they back in 2008. Today the reports are silent knowing the Australia is a wash this year and argentina had massive losses in the early spring, yet the news is silent and speculators are saying nothing, meaning the costs of food remain low.

    Two reason, the election and secondly, if food is actually running short it could jeapordize the entire market and cause a collapse loosing their entire wealth. If speculators and greed hit the market, panic will set in. So what are they doing about this? Diversifying their funds into hard assets and securing their wealth, thus little investment stagnating our economy today.

    Back to the reason why, here is it...

    In 2012 North America experienced one of the worst droughts since the time of the “Great Dust Bowl.” The precipitation levels in Minneapolis have maintained an overall average for the year as, “Graph 1, Minnesota Oklahoma Rainfall” indicates. The precipitation levels tend to go in unison with each other and the further south one travels, the more rain is found in non arid areas of the world in order to offset the increased solar radiance that is applied to the land through the summer. Oklahoma City has shown a slight decline yet their levels are within the normal parameters of a season. Because 2012 is not complete, the last plot on the graph will still rise. In Minneapolis we have had 29.59” in 2012. From 1971 until 2000 the overall yearly precipitation was 29.41” indicating a normal season of rainfall.

    Mpls Ok City rain to nov 19,2012.jpg
  9. Woody

    Woody Member

    The graph was complete thru 11/19/2012 and all around the nation total shortage of rainfall for the year was spotted and most areas maintained a normal level.

    The major cause of our drought was not caused from a lack of precipitation, but a result of heat that caused vast evaporation of ground water sources.
    In the following “Graph 2: Minneapolis July Low Temperatures 1891 – present” there is a dip in temperatures and seasonal alterations indicating a cooling period from 1940 until the 1970’s. Today science has confirmed that the amount of pollution in the atmosphere that man had inadvertently built up over the years had actually initiated a cooling trend. In 1970 the EPA was developed, in 1972 we switched to unleaded fuels, and after years of work the skies have become clean once again.

    When we look at heat we tend to look to the high temperatures of the day. Because this is transient a more acurate measure of heat from a thermal perspective would be looking at the low temperatures at night. This is an indicator of the level of thermal absorption that has taken place and the level of heat the planet has retained through the night. Minnesota July Low Temps.jpg
  10. Woody

    Woody Member

    By looking at these temperatures we find that 2012 was 70.4 degrees over taking the 1936 record of 70.12 degrees. From 1891 until 1899 the average temperature was 62.06 degrees, 8.34 degrees cooler than 2012. The warmest year was 1894 when an average low temperature at night was 64.64 degrees, 5.82 degrees cooler than 2012. Because the planet was already warming by the 1890’s and deforestation had began in the 1830’s in Minnesota, it is estimated that the average low temperatures at night in Minnesota would have averaged approximately 60 degrees prior to mans wide spread alterations of the land. This would place the temperatures in Minnesota in 2012 over 10 degrees above its natural state today creating a rapid loss of ground water supplies.
    As a result of this heat we have also seen a longer delay before enountering winter resulting in a longer growing season over recent years. In this graph we can see the first day that a 30 degree low temperature was attained. Minnesota Season - Fall.jpg
  11. Woody

    Woody Member

    The y axis represents the day in October it first hit 30 degrees. A negative number indicates September and after 31 is November. The x axis indicates the year.
  12. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    Cold air does hold less water vapor. But it's not the absolute amount of water in the air that determines whether contrails (and clouds) form, it's relative humidity (RH); that is, the amount of water vapor relative to the saturation point at that temperature.

    Just to clarify, are you claiming that there are naturally never clouds when it's very cold?

    How have you determined that they are at the same altitude?


    Perhaps you missed the disclaimer at the beginning:
  13. Woody

    Woody Member

  14. Woody

    Woody Member

    Yep, no clouds are EVER apparent in the extreme cold here as this video displays what happens to water vapor, and remember, its warmest at ground level, temperatures decline from this point up.
  15. Woody

    Woody Member

    When it gets this cold inland, no open water like the Arctic and the Hudson Bay, clouds never appear. The only clouds today are the ones dispensed by the Power Company chillers, and they disapate rapidly in this weather but are very large today and it snows there continuously in these temperatures.

    You can judge altitude the same way you can judge the distance of auto's with binoculars, by the size and location of the image. We have seen them higher, the same altitude, and lower. We were talking with a skeptic on a job site and he was denying it as many here are, then we asked him to look again at the plane flying near the same altitude and asked, where is the trail on that flight. We left him speachless and thinking. Anyone who has eyes can see them, including the chemical tanks mounted on the side of the planes on many of them here. They appear to be DC-9's with orangish tanks mounted on the sides of the aircraft behind the front wing reaching back to the tail on both sides and was appearing to be spraying from the wings. Later research explained this in the Hughs Patent. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5%2c003%2c186&OS=5%2c003%2c186&RS=5%2c003%2c186
  16. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

  17. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    Woody, I'm left with the impression that you don't understand what clouds are. They are not water vapor. Water vapor is the gas phase, and is invisible. They are suspended water droplets (liquid) and/or ice crystals (solid), which occurred when the water vapor condensed out, because the RH was above 100%. Natural cirrus clouds (like contrail cirrus) are composed of ice crystals, and ordinarily happen when the temperature is extremely low (less than -40 degrees).
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Woody

    Woody Member

    Nope, cloudless, I have also learned not to trust the radar compared to ground observers, often times they pick up interferance. I will travel in a while and let you know the sky conditions as I travel to the cities. I can see over 7.500 square miles and there isn't a cloud anywhere. If it gets near zero this could change. Reading this morning on the gauge errored, its extent is -25.
  19. Woody

    Woody Member

    I wonder how many of you have spent time in these Arctic Conditions here? I understand clouds, vapor, vaporization, evaporization. But are you saying that all the people in Minnesota are wrong? This is common knowledge up here, like swimming in Florida can be dangerous to your dog if your not careful.
  20. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    Where did you get this idea that clouds never occur inland when it's very cold?

    It's nearly impossible to determine altitude that way. See this page for an explanation and demonstration of this (scroll down to "You Can't Tell How High a Plane Is").
    The difference of even 1,000 feet in altitude is essentially impossible to tell from the ground, and that can be far more than enough to change whether contrails form and persist or not.
    Really, I have eyes, I look at planes a lot, and I've never seen these "chemical tanks", etc. Can you provide a picture of this?
    The existence of patents does not show that something is being used (the vast majority never are), nor even that it would work.
  21. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    I grew up in New York, went to school in Michigan. Spent a fair amount of time up in Minnesota in winter. There are definitely clouds in winter naturally there, as there is in the actual Arctic. Can you point to a single reliable source which supports this claim? Here is the median cloudiness during the year in Minneapolis (according to Weatherspark), it actually gets cloudier during the winter:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  22. Woody

    Woody Member

    I am working on attaining a picture, its hard at these altitudes to get a physical lock on an image. I have the equipment but everything has to be right. By the way, you can't see the tanks with your eyes, you need at least a set of binoculars. Daily observation by the people here stretching back over 70 years tell us this. Low cloud formation can begin to gather as the day progresses and is usually inititated by open water from spring fed lakes, rivers, manmade coolers, etc. It never snows when it is this cold here, this is a historical fact.
  23. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    You're the ONLY person from Minnesota that I've ever seen make the claim that there are no clouds when it gets very cold.

    Now, it's true that it tends to be much colder after cloudless winter nights, as most people know. But that's because more heat escapes with the lack of clouds - I think you've got the causality mixed up.
  24. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    http://w1.weather.gov/data/obhistory/KMSP.html
  25. Woody

    Woody Member

    Of course it is often cloudy in the winter, but we are not talking winter are we, we are talking in temperatures that reach more than -15, usually like last night, more than -20. Clouds retain the warmth in the winter and is good for us who do not like the cold. But weather patterns have altered greatly and it has been over 4 years since we have experiancede this kind of cold, we use to experiance this every winter but usually for several days at the most.
  26. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Woody. I really think you should focus your efforts on taking a photo of these tanks. It's kind of hard for people to take you seriously otherwise.

    Regarding clouds. Do you understand that many clouds are made of ice crystals? And that contrails are a type of ice crystal cloud?
  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Woody, are you familiar with the daily MODIS satellite images? They have historical high resolution images of of the global weather going back a couple of years. Very useful for looking at typical clouds over an area. It's great for getting a broader overview.

    http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worl...nd&time=2013-01-20T12:00:00&switch=geographic

    Here's yesterday's. It was pretty cold yesterday, no? And there seems like there was some cloud?
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  28. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    Exactly. The reason you think that clear skies are associated with low temperatures is because clouds help keep it from getting cold at ground level. Not the other way around. Cirrus clouds (both natural and contrail cirrus) actually require very cold temperatures (which are common at high altitude) to form and persist.
  29. Woody

    Woody Member

  30. Woody

    Woody Member

    Yes, of course there was, it came in last night. This was the warm front moving out and it was cloudy all day yesterday. Yes, 0 degrees was the warm front that moved out and gave way to more than -20, cleared out with the cold but the clouds appear on radar and everyone insists it is coulds, but there are none, so the question returns back, if its not clouds what is it?
  31. Woody

    Woody Member

    I understand all of this, and it is not easy to get focused in on a moving craft at those altitudes. If you see the video and what happens to water and how in these temperatures they disapate rapidly the clear skies I show in the other video is text book skies for this weather. This does not support chem-trails, but seriously, what is radar picking up if there is absolutely no visible clouds? Trust me, its a text book normal day so far but havent taken my drive to the cities but I will give a report and any pics I find along the way. It may be normal, but this radar disturbs me because it appears to be far more than ground clutter, and ground clutter in greater in the cities which lis located on the lower right corner of the radar.
  32. Woody

    Woody Member


    You are right, this weather comes in at night allowing the temperatures to get very cold under clear conditions, clouds hold the heat in. As the sun comes up, so does the wind rise up as well as evaporation and heat creating distrubances. This is why the lakes are always the calmest before the sun rises on a typical day, then becomes choppy as the day goes on. This does not discount the statement that it is always clear here when it is this cold. In fact, the data supports this so far as being debunked, except for the radar images reflecting something that is not cloud formations.
  33. Woody

    Woody Member

    By the way, the local meteorologists know this and talk about it too
  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Woody, can you use "Reply with Quote", so we can tell which post you are responding to.
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    What map is this? What exactly is it showing? Can you give a link to the page this map appears on?

    What date and time was it?
  36. Met Watch

    Met Watch Moderator Staff Member

    It is -10 outside right now and I can see clouds. Define "extreme cold."
  37. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    But you have agreed that it is "clear when it is cold" because being clear allows it to get colder. This does not demonstrate that cloud formation does not occur at very cold temperatures. Indeed, as I have repeatedly explained, very cold atmospheric conditions are required for cirrus clouds to form - both natural and contrail cirrus.
  38. Met Watch

    Met Watch Moderator Staff Member

    Woody, I live in North Dakota - we're usually at least a couple degrees colder than you folks in Minnesota. We had periodic clouds rolling over the Red River Valley yesterday despite the temperature falling from -2 degrees down to roughly -17. We're supposed to get down to -23 tonight, and lo and behold, clouds are forecast. So explain to me how clouds can exist in North Dakota in extreme cold, and yet, as you claim, they cannot possibly exist in Minnesota?

    I should also mention I live very close to the Minnesota border and can see the Minnesota sky from my window. I see clouds in your domain right now.
    • Like Like x 2
  39. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    I don't see a time stamp on that Intellicast image. Nor do I see what the computer image is actually depicting. It certainly doesn't look like a radar image. For all I know it is "future cast" for cloud cover. It doesn't look like a radar image. Raw radar imagery is on a green, yellow, orange, red scale depending on the strength of return. Intellicast paints snow various shades of blue, mixed precip pink, and liquid precip on the green, yellow, orange, red scale. The image in that video shows white. That makes me think that it is either a satellite image that is not current or it is a "future cast" image for expected cloud cover at some point in the future.
  40. Rico

    Rico Active Member


    Minneapolis is hardly Arctic. I live in Canada, and it's a bit colder up here. We also see clouds too.

    Belfrey explained it pretty well I think. It's about relative humidity. Cold air can hold less water vapour, but when the localized temperatures are cooled to saturation point, it becomes visible. Clouds are visible moisture. They happen when vapour gets condensed out and this happens when temperatures drop to near the dewpoint.

    Here is the local weather conditions at Minneapolis St. Paul International Airport, as read by pilots (Ref: weather.gov);
    KMSP 211753Z 30012KT 10SM SCT023 M21/M27 A3032 RMK AO2 SLP291 60000 T12111272 11211 21233 58004

    M21/M27 means the temperature is currently -21 degrees celsius, and the dewpoint is -27 degrees. The time there is 1753 GMT. There are currently scattered layers of cloud at 2,300' (above ground) over the airport. At altitude, when the air becomes colder, the temperature will get ever more closer to the dewpoint. When that happens, we can expect clouds. Generally, dewpoint and temperature converge about 2.5 degrees C per thousand feet (this isn't always the case, as this number is but an average, but it's a decent benchmark). Pilots often calculate the base of cloud by taking the temperature and dewpoint difference, and dividing it by 2.5, then multiplying that by 1000 to get the base of cloud. In this case, (27-21)/2.5 = 2400', which is pretty close.

    I don't know any meteorologist who knows and talks about what you are referring to. Please prove me wrong by providing a reference.

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