Scotland’s Socorro: the Dechmont/Robert Taylor UFO, 1979

[Avalon]

What are people's views on the Dechmont incident, where a man claimed to have been attacked by 'mine' shaped things which ripped his trousers?

I'm aware of claims he saw a nearby dome across the road instead, but how do we explain the rest of it? Did he somehow become delirious and ripped the trousers after falling?

It's almost Scotland's Sorocco incident, but hasn't received much attention.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-50321268

 

[yoshy]

There's no evidence or other witnesses, so there's not really much to be said or investigate in this case. None of his injuries are particularly unique, being consistent with a fall, seizure, or even getting mugged. There's some proposed explanations on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident), but again, the lack of evidence means this case will never go anywhere, most likely.

 

[NorCal Dave]

What are people's views on the Dechmont incident, where a man claimed to have been attacked by 'mine' shaped things which ripped his trousers?

I'm aware of claims he saw a nearby dome across the road instead, but how do we explain the rest of it? Did he somehow become delirious and ripped the trousers after falling?

It's almost Scotland's Sorocco incident, but hasn't received much attention.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-50321268

This is not a great way to start a thread. You have just left a link for us to go find and read or watch. Best practice is to copy and paste relevant sections of whatever you want to talk about in your opening post. These sections should be offset using the External Content tag, it's the big black box and arrow in the upper left. Then explain what it is your posting and why it's relevant or important. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

This one is a bit problematic because you're linking to a BBC video, not even a YouTube one. Nevertheless, you should provide transcripts and/or time stamps for the important parts.

In this case it's only a 0:30 video, so not much there to work with. It's just some guy recalling a story from 40 years ago with little or no details. As @yoshy noted above, it doesn't sound like there was much to go 40 years ago. Just an anecdote.

 

[John J.]

Hi Avalon,
There's a Wikipedia article on the Robert Walker incident/ Livingston UFO incident/ Dechmont forest incident incident here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident
It has been discussed on national TV in the UK in the past, perhaps not in recent years.

It's almost Scotland's Sorocco incident, but hasn't received much attention.

I've never heard it referred to as that, so the thread title "Scotland's Sorocco..." might be confusing for folks like me.
The only parallels between the two I can think of are (1) both feature a single witness in an isolated location, (2) both witnesses are reported as being reliable, down-to-earth men who stood by their stories but never sought publicity.

I wrote a bit about it in post#179 in the thread Diana W. Pasulka - aliens & religion & other dimensions, I've copied the relevant section below.

The references to DMT and circular motifs result from the context of that thread. I would disregard the DMT stuff, but circular/ spherical objects are of course common in UFO reports, and "orbs" are fashionable at the moment (and discussed in the thread Elizondo's Orbs and elsewhere here).
They're also common in popular culture depictions of alien and future spacecraft, some of which pre-date the Kenneth Arnold 1947 sighting by at least 17 years (magazine covers as evidence here, in the thread How have descriptions of UAPs changed over the years?) We know those depictions are based on artist's impressions of fictional descriptions, not claimed sightings.

Evidence for a link between some alien abduction claims and altered states of consciousness from organic/ endogenous causes seems strong:

In Dark White: Aliens, abductions, and the UFO obsession (Jim Schnabel, pub. Hamish Hamilton 1994), the author relates a rare case of an abduction experience (undergone by an Australian woman IIRC) being observed by others- the experiencer was having an epileptic event; other than her behaviour the witnesses didn't see anything strange.

The 1979 account given by forestry worker Robert Taylor interests me. Walking with his dog* near Livingston, Scotland, he saw a UFO about 480 metres (530 yards) away. Two smaller spheres which he described as "similar to sea mines" rolled towards him, somehow seized him and were dragging him towards the UFO when he blacked out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident

Taylor with a picture of what he claimed to have seen (the "main" UFO and the mine-like spheres are not to scale)- I don't know when the photo was taken; he was 60 in 1979, looks older here:

Taylor awoke, and returned home with torn muddy clothing and some grazes; his wife called the police and a doctor.
By all accounts, Taylor was a reliable, down-to-Earth man with little previous interest in strange phenomena, and he was always adamant that his account was truthful and accurate.

It was generally agreed that Taylor, who moved away from the Livingston area after his disturbing adventure, was not a man given to concocting fanciful stories.
He never sought publicity or gained financially from the ensuing media interest - and he continued to stand by every word of his account.

Daily Telegraph Obituaries, 23 March 2007: Bob Taylor https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1546390/Bob-Taylor.html


However, medical doctor (and founder of the Edinburgh University UFO Research Society) Patricia Hannaford opined that Taylor had actually experienced an isolated temporal lobe epileptiform event; Taylor remembered a strong acrid smell before passing out, a possible pre-convulsion "aura", and Hannaford thought the estimated time Taylor was unconscious supports this theory. Taylor had previously been ill with meningitis, increasing the chances of him suffering such an attack (Wikipedia, ibid.)

There are other possible clues to a neurological origin; Taylor heard a "swishing" sound immediately before losing consciousness, another possible aura. Interestingly, Timmermann et al (2018, ibid.) write

Commonly described features of the DMT experience include... ...an acoustic perception of a high pitched 'whining/whirring' sound during the onset of the experience

although any relationship between this and Taylor's report must be conjectural at best.

On waking, Taylor tried to get help using a radio in his truck, but found he couldn't talk
( "Dechmont Woods incident: BBC's One Show recreates Robert Taylor 'UFO encounter'", Edinburgh Live (Reach plc), Neil Pooran, 27 February 2020, click here to link to website) and had a headache (Wikipedia); the headache is a common post-ictal (post-epileptic fit) symptom, transient aphasia -inability to speak- is a less common, but known, post-ictal symptom.

Taylor described the main UFO as having

...a rough texture like sandpaper

(Wikipedia, ibid) which implies he was very close, even touching it- but he said it was several hundred metres/ yards away. Nevertheless I believe his account was subjectively truthful- he received a strong impression of the texture of the UFO's surface.

Then there's the circular motifs- the main UFO was circular (common in UFO reports) but bizarrely had a ring of tiny propellers around its periphery. And the spherical "mines" which rolled towards him. (Elsewhere on this forum @Duke pointed out that "flying saucer", implying a disc shape, was a press man's misquote of Kenneth Arnold's 1947 description, and raised the excellent question of whether subsequent UFO sightings would have described different-shaped craft if this error had not been made).

Something I put elsewhere about disc-shaped craft,

(1) No-one's reporting flying discs over the USA prior to 1947. (I suspect the "foo fighters" of WW2 are different phenomena).
(2) In 1947 Kenneth Arnold claims to see UFOs. They are not disc-shaped.
(3) A reporter misunderstands Arnold, and coins the term "flying saucer". The "flying saucers" story gets widespread publicity.
(4) Within days, other people are reporting "flying saucers", not craft of the shape (or flight characteristics) Arnold described.

And not long after, we start getting photos of "flying saucers".
Except, we know many of the early photos are hoaxes. Adamski's scout ship is perhaps the best-known example, but at least it had high information value- it was clearly a technological artefact.

I think there must be a socio-psychological component to the sudden appearance of flying saucers so soon (days!) after the term was invented and publicized.
Many people experience strange phenomena, and/ or see things that appear inexplicable or anomalous.
I think that these experiences/ sightings are intrinsically interesting, and are worth investigating- even if they are not what they appear to be "at face value".

 

[Avalon]

This is not a great way to start a thread. You have just left a link for us to go find and read or watch. Best practice is to copy and paste relevant sections of whatever you want to talk about in your opening post. These sections should be offset using the External Content tag, it's the big black box and arrow in the upper left. Then explain what it is your posting and why it's relevant or important. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

This one is a bit problematic because you're linking to a BBC video, not even a YouTube one. Nevertheless, you should provide transcripts and/or time stamps for the important parts.

In this case it's only a 0:30 video, so not much there to work with. It's just some guy recalling a story from 40 years ago with little or no details. As @yoshy noted above, it doesn't sound like there was much to go 40 years ago. Just an anecdote.

Ok thanks, sorry new here and getting the feel of things.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Ok thanks, sorry new here and getting the feel of things.

No worries. Like I said feel free to PM me with any questions. Just hover over my avatar photo and you'll get an option to send a private message.

 

[Giddierone]

For those not familiar with this case there's a much longer 31 minute program about it on YouTube. [As a single witness case there's not really much to go at in terms of discussion here].

In 1979 forestry worker Bob Taylor describes seeing a large circlular craft/vehicle and two smaller spheres with spikes on them that roll toward him causing him injury. The video includes an interview with a doctor who examined him, police, forensic scientists (who examined Taylors torn trousers) friends, and remarks from ufologists and sceptics alike. The narration of the event starts at [3:10].

---

If there's anything that can be discussed here it's the bizzare debunk offered by Steuart Campbell: that Taylor saw a complex reflection or "astronomical mirage" of venus. [from 25:30]. Campbell says that in the absence of any other explanation his must be the right one...
The mirage theory is pooh-poohed by Terry Moseley from the Irish Astronomical Society [around 28:00].

The location [55.91315961608553, -3.5499963296788373] map from Campbell's book The UFO mystery solved (1994) - Chapter 9. 'Venus down in the forest'.

From Campbell's book p.153

The mirage hypothesis
Somewhen in the mid '80s, I obtained an astronomical computer pro-
gramme that enabled me to explain many cases as sightings of astronom-
ical objects. One day, out of desperation, I used it to find what bright as-
tronomical objects might be near the horizon at the time Taylor saw his
'UFO'. To my surprise, I found that two planets were rising exactly in
Taylor's line of sight as he rounded the corner and looked across the
clearing. Plate 9:2 (q.v.) shows that Taylor had a clear view to Deer
Hill (see figure 9:3). Venus (magnitude -3-7) lay at an altitude of only 3°
(neglecting refraction) on an azimuth of 138°, while Mercury (magnitude
0-4) lay close by at an altitude of 2° (neglecting refraction) on an az-
imuth of 139".
In normal circumstances both planets would have been invisible, not
only because it was daylight, but because the crest of Deer Hill lay at an
altitude of 5°15' (from Taylor's position). However, if they were visi-
ble, it can only have been via mirage, a mechanism that can elevate the
source. It is feasible that one or both planets could have been visible,
magnified and lifted just over the crest of Deer Hill. But a temperature
inversion would have been necessary.
If Taylor was looking at Venus (or less likely Mercury), then his view
was across the valley of the River Almond, beyond Deer Hill. At that
time, Britain lay on the edge of an anticyclone which brought relative
calm and low wind speeds (25 km/h from the north-west). At Edinburgh
Airport 13 km away, the minimum temperature the previous night was
-1 °C. A satellite photograph shows that, at 0920L, Livingston lay near
the edge of a cloud bank with clear skies to the north-west. By 1015L
this cloud must have cleared, and warm air can have overlain colder air
in the valley. It is quite likely therefore that an inversion had formed
in the Almond valley by 1015L. Unfortunately no upper air data are
available to confirm this.
The mirage hypothesis explains why Taylor suffered an epileptic at-
tack when and where he did. Rounding a corner he was confronted by a
hemispherical enlargement of the image of Venus appearing to be in the
clearing in front of him (although in fact it was in the sky just above the
hill). Its extended image would change in appearance as the light from
Venus was refracted along different paths in the atmosphere. The cause
f the two 'robots' is not clear, but perhaps Mercury also participated in
the mirage. The 'spokes' may have been caused by corneal fibres and
astigmatism as the pupils of his eyes opening in heightened interest. A
combination of surprise, fear and the unusual sight may have been
enough to trigger the epileptic seizure. Some of the images may have
become distorted in the aural phase of the attack.

Source:
Source: https://youtu.be/GaH2ZyU9-_k?si=b7zwRCW7ElT324r0

 

[Ann K]

@Giddierone
(From your quote of Campbell's book)

The mirage hypothesis explains why Taylor suffered an epileptic at-
tack when and where he did.

And he doesn't mention that the epilepsy attack might have explained the mirage?

 

[Giddierone]

And he doesn't mention that the epilepsy attack might have explained the mirage?

No, he seemed intent on a novel hypothesis (AMH) which triggered the seizure. He seemed to give up on pursuing it further whilst symultaneously implies that it's probably correct, but not a "commonly accepted mechanism"... welp emoji.

 

[FatPhil]

'mine' shaped things

"mine" is not a shape.

 

[JMartJr]

I assumed like these:

which turns out to be the case now that some drawings and such have been posted. But then, I watch a lot of movies where the submarine goes "PING!" a lot...

 

[FatPhil]

I assumed like these:
View attachment 71367
which turns out to be the case now that some drawings and such have been posted. But then, I watch a lot of movies where the submarine goes "PING!" a lot...

I live on the Baltic sea less than 400m from a mine museum. Isn't it hospitals that go "PING!" (at least when leased back from the company you sold them to).

 

[John J.]

If there's anything that can be discussed here it's the bizzare debunk offered by Steuart Campbell: that Taylor actually had an epileptic fit (which he'd never had before or since) and saw a complex reflection or "astronomical mirage" of venus.

I think the mirage (or whatever) of Venus is a bizarre explanation.
Robert Taylor's experience happened in full daylight, approx. 10:30 a.m.
(BBC, The UFO sighting investigated by the police, 09 November 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655)

@Giddierone's post made something 'click' in my memory, and after a quick look on Wikipedia my suspicion was confirmed: Steuart Campbell, who proposed the Venus / epilepsy theory,

...has suggested that what Zamora observed [near Socorro, 1964] was "almost certainly" a mirage of the star Canopus.

Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident

So we have found another (albeit tenuous) common factor between the Livingston, 1979 and Socorro, 1964 sightings:
Steuart Campbell has proposed questionable astronomical-meteorological explanations (or part-explanations) for both of them.

...Taylor actually had an epileptic fit (which he'd never had before or since)

Isolated unexplained seizures aren't that rare. The semantics can get confusing; a single unexplained seizure (i.e. not due to toxins, contemporaneous head injury, known illness etc. etc. and not including infant febrile convulsions) often will not lead to a diagnosis of epilepsy even if there is suspicion that the episode had the same aetiology and symptoms as an epileptic fit:

One seizure does not signify epilepsy (up to 10% of people worldwide have one seizure during their lifetime). Epilepsy is defined as having two or more unprovoked seizures.

World Health Organisation, Epilepsy, 07 February 2024 https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/epilepsy, my emphasis.

Definitions.—A seizure was considered the clinical manifestation of an abnormal and excessive discharge of a set of neurons of the brain, including cortical cells... ... Epilepsy was defined as a condition characterized by recurrent unprovoked seizures. A person with a single unprovoked seizure was not categorized as having epilepsy in the current study...
Even with exclusion of febrile convulsions, the lifetime risk [of one or more seizure episodes] approaches 10%.

"Descriptive Epidemiology of Epilepsy: Contributions of Population-Based Studies From Rochester, Minnesota",
Hauser, W.A., Annegers, J.F., Rocca, W.A., Mayo Clinic Proceedings 71 (6), 1996
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025619611641153

In her police statement, his wife Mary said Mr Taylor had no history of mental illness but had contracted meningitis 14 years earlier... ... in July of that year [1979] he had suffered a series of headaches and was admitted to the City Hospital in Edinburgh.

BBC report, link as above. This information is rarely mentioned in write-ups of the incident.

Headaches don't normally result in hospital admission. Either Mr Taylor's headaches were unusually severe, or doctors were concerned that there was an underlying cause that might need investigating.

Meningitis increases the risk of experiencing seizures, including many years after the illness,

Latent period- A widely held concept suggesting that after a brain injury occurs, there is frequently a "latent period" lasting months or years in which seizures do not occur, followed by the development of remote symptomatic epilepsy. During this period, epileptogenic changes occur in the structure and physiology of the brain...

"Infections, inflammation and epilepsy", Vezzani, Fujinami, White et al., Acta Neuropathologica 131 (2), 2016
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4867498/

Some of the most common complications associated with meningitis are:
-hearing loss, which may be partial or total
-recurrent seizures (epilepsy)

NHS (UK) Complications, Meningitis https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/meningitis/complications/

Some meningitis survivors develop epilepsy, most don't, a single seizure (or unidentified seizure events) can't be excluded.

See also "Bacterial meningitis and epilepsy", Murthy, Prabhakar, Epilepsia 49, August 2008 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18754955/, "The Impact and Burden of Neurological Sequelae Following Bacterial Meningitis: A Narrative Review", Schiess, Groce, Dua, Microorganisms 9 (5), 2001 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8145552/

Robert Taylor's account might include clues that his experience occurred during a pre-convulsion aura.

Taylor claims he experienced a foul odour "like burning brakes"

Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident,

There was an acrid smell that caused him to choke...

The Scotsman 09 November 2004, Gareth Edwards, via Wayback Machine

...all he could remember was a strong smell of burning.

BBC (same story as earlier, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655).

Note the first symptom listed under Temporal Lobe Epilepsy on the John Hopkins Medicine website,

-A peculiar smell (such as burning rubber)
-Strong emotions (such as fear)

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/epilepsy/focal-epilepsy

Describing the experiences of having an epileptic aura, the Neurology Associates website states

Some may have tunnel vision, feel hot and sweaty, smell burning, or experience other sensory distortions. Because auras are seizures, it's normal to drop things, stumble, slur one's speech, have a hard time understanding others, etc.

https://www.neurologyassociates.com...-differ-between-migraine-and-seizure-patients

Symptoms of seizures in the temporal lobes include:

Feeling frightened
Feeling like what's happening has happened before (déjà vu)
Hearing things that aren't there
Experiencing an unpleasant taste or smell...
...After a temporal lobe seizure you are likely to be confused or may find it hard to speak for a short time.

Epilepsy Action (UK charity) website, https://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/seizures/focal-seizures, my emphasis.

They might include changes to your thoughts, senses, or awareness like
-Flashing or flickering lights, blurry vision, dark spots, partial vision loss, or seeing things that aren't there
-A feeling of deja vu, panic, or detachment
-Hearing voices or buzzing, ringing, or drumming sounds [my emphasis, see below]
-Unusual, typically unpleasant smells

WebMD website, "What is a seizure with aura?", M.J DiLonardo, reviewed by C. Melinosky MD on October 25, 2023
https://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/seizure-with-aura

There's even a book about epilepsy called A Smell of Burning (Colin Grant, 2016 https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/421344/a-smell-of-burning-by-colin-grant/9780099597872).

Malcolm said: "[The balls] projected these spike towards his person - his hips. Pulled him very, very forcibly, slightly upwards and towards this larger object.
"Bob said at this point he smelled a horrible burning smell.
"Then he heard a swishing sound and then bang, he lost consciousness."

Edinburgh Live website, Neil Pooran, quoting author/ UFO investigator Malcolm Robinson, 27 February 2020
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/dechmont-woods-incident-bbcs-one-17825647

The swishing sound immediately before loss of consciousness might also be indicative of an aura.
There is another possible sensory anomaly- Taylor described the main object as having

...a rough texture like sandpaper...

...but he was a few hundred yards/ metres away.

It's difficult to establish from on-line sources how far away Taylor was from the object,

Taylor reported seeing what he described as a "flying dome" or a large, circular sphere approximately 7 yards (6.4 m; 21 ft) in diameter, hovering above the forest floor in a clearing about 530 yards (1,590 ft; 480 m) away from his truck.

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident, my emphasis.

I had mistakenly taken the 530 yards/ 480 metres figure to be the distance Robert Taylor was from the UFO in the past,
(the Scottish Daily Express might have made the same error,

He later reported seeing a spherical object around 21ft in diameter hovering above the forest floor almost 500 metres away.

Scottish Daily Express, Douglas Dickie 29 July 2023),
...but he had walked a short distance from his truck before his sighting.

However, a NICAP (US UFO research group) article tells us, on regaining consciousness

It took time for him to reach his pick-up truck as he was forced to crawl some 90 yards ( 82 meters) to it.

"The Livingston UFO Assault", PDF from NICAP
https://www.nicap.org/articles/taylor_ufoevidence.org_Cases_CaseSubarticle.asp_ID=684.pdf

If this is roughly correct, Taylor was still some 440 yards, 402 metres from where he had seen the object (the Wikipedia distance conversion is poor, 530 yards= approx. 484.6 m). The object is unfamiliar- how could Taylor assess its texture at that range?
In the context of anomalous and jumbled sensations during an aura, maybe Taylor received some impression of a texture.

On Robert's regaining of consciousness,

The dog was panicky, running around and barking. Taylor tried to calm him down, but found that his voice was gone. He was very weak, and when he tried to stand, he couldn't. He crawled for a time until he was able to stand again.
He finally made it back to his pick-up truck and tried to radio his work headquarters via his two-way, but still could not speak.
[After walking home, 11:45] ...His experience had lasted a little over an hour. Finally, his voice was returning. He had developed a great thirst by the time he was home. Taylor would feel ill for a time after his experience with the UFO and two spheres, and he could still smell the awful odor from the forest.

UFO Casebook website, "1979-Dechmont Woods- Abduction of Robert Taylor", B.J. Booth https://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html

Different reports/ retellings give differing accounts about the truck, some say it wouldn't start, others that Robert drove it into a ditch or got stuck in mud.

He went to his van but was so shaken he drove it into a ditch and had to stagger home in "a dazed condition".

BBC, "The UFO sighting investigated by the police" (again), https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655).
The "...dazed condition" might be relevant.

Mentioned in an earlier post, medical doctor (and founder of Edinburgh University UFO Research Society) Patricia Hannaford thought Taylor's symptoms after the event were suggestive of him having had a temporal lobe-based epilepsy-type seizure:

his report of a strong smell which nobody else could detect, his headache, dry throat, [temporary] paralysis of his legs and period of unconsciousness suggested this cause.

Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident

He suffered a frontal headache for hours and the next two days he was very thirsty. At home he could still taste the smell..

NICAP's The Livingston UFO Assault PDF.

Various symptoms are experienced by some people (not all) who have had seizures, this is called the postictal state.
Headache is common. Transient paralysis in the postictal phase, as seems to have happened to Robert Taylor's legs, is less common but has its own title, Todd's paresis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd's_paresis.
Transient aphasia can also occur (remember Taylor couldn't speak on his radio) and thirst is sometimes reported.
Phantosmia- smelling something that isn't there- can also be experienced postictally (just as it can during an aura),

It can result from neurological conditions such as migraines, head injuries, strokes, Parkinson's disease, seizures...

Wikipedia, Phantosmia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantosmia

Different neurological functions are affected by the inhibitory processes in the postictal period. These involve speech, motor, and memory. Patients with left temporal lobe epilepsy develop a more prominent verbal memory deficit in the postictal period.
...The memory is affected in such a way that 30% of the patients do not remember any seizure

"Postictal Seizure State", Abood, W., Bandyopadhyay, S., StatPearls 10 July 2023 via (US) National Library of Medicine
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK526004/

From MEDIZZY website, https://medizzy.com/feed/36288575; the (added) arrows indicate symptoms which might have applied to Robert Taylor after his encounter.

National Epilepsy Training (in the UK) list confusion and disorientation, fatigue and weakness, headache and muscle aches, speech and language difficulties as common postictal features, http://www.nationalepilepsytraining...tal-states-in-epilepsy-a-comprehensive-guide/

I think it is likely that Robert Taylor had an epilepsy-type seizure, maybe of temporal lobe origin as suggested by Dr Hannaford.
It is the simplest explanation that covers all the facts known to us about what Robert Taylor reported.

As for markings on the ground in the clearing, who knows?
Steuart Campbell, of Venus/ Canopus mirage fame, visited the site,

He discovered that the local water authority had laid a cable duct within 100m of the clearing. He came to the conclusion that stacks of pipes might have been stored in the clearing and were responsible for the ground markings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident

Comments about the markings being like those left by a bulldozer, but with no approach tracks to the site, seem a bit daft.
A bulldozer isn't going to drive up the M8 motorway, turn off and plough through a few hundred metres of countryside to get to its destination; more likely it would be delivered via a low loader and move to where it was needed over duckboards/ sand ladders. The caterpillar tracks result in a relatively low ground pressure.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

We can never be completely certain about some reported facts, and this might apply to what we're told about people involved in UFO sightings (particularly when, sadly, they're no longer here to talk to).
Consider,

Mr Taylor, who died in 2007, was a respected war hero and teetotal churchgoer.

BBC, Scotland, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655 (2019)

He liked a pint, and a dram too, but not when he was working.

The Economist, Obituary, Robert Taylor https://www.economist.com/obituary/2007/03/29/robert-taylor (29 March 2007)

 

[Ann K]

@John J.
Good catch about the Campbell link to Zamora!

I thought "mysterious event, then seizure" was unlikely to have occurred in that order, but thanks for tracking down the medical references.

 

[John J.]

Good catch about the Campbell link to Zamora!

I think Steuart Campbell's theory about mirages of celestial objects might themselves be seen as "extraordinary claims", even though they come from a UFO- sceptical viewpoint.*
If he's correct about the local water provider carrying out pipework in the immediate area (and seeing pipes temporarily cached in a nearby field), I think that might be an important factor regarding the ground markings in the clearing.

I thought "mysterious event, then seizure" was unlikely to have occurred in that order

Me too. There is photosensitive epilepsy, where e.g. flashing lights can provoke seizures in a small minority of people,

Photosensitive epilepsy (PSE) is a form of epilepsy in which seizures are triggered by visual stimuli that form patterns in time or space, such as flashing lights; bold, regular patterns; or regular moving patterns. PSE affects approximately one in 4,000 people

Wikipedia, Photosensitive epilepsy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy, but I don't think Robert Taylor's account (or visits made to the site shortly after) support an external visual cause.

If the seizure theory is broadly right (and "diagnosis at a distance" must always be problematic, however well intentioned),
there might have been an external trigger, but it's not required and I think it's unlikely. But we might never know for sure.

Hypothetically, the breakdown would be

Aura progressing to complex partial seizure (focal seizure with awareness but altered cognition):
-Smell of burning/ acrid smell, Taylor describes "burning brakes" (pretty much textbook)
-Altered visual perception, visual hallucination, other altered perception, e.g. the texture of a distant object
-Fear
-Auditory hallucination, Taylor reports a "swishing" sound immediately prior to loss of consciousness

Generalized tonic-clonic seizure (what used to be called a grand mal seizure)
-Loss of consciousness
-"Unguarded" collapse to the ground, convulsion. The dog becomes alarmed.
-Tears to clothing, minor abrasions, muddied clothing, strain to muscles

Postictal state
-Return to consciousness but some symptoms/ aberrant perceptions remain for a time, "...in a dazed state" (BBC, Scotland)
-Transient aphasia- Taylor cannot speak to dog or speak on vehicle radio
-Muscle weakness, possibly transient Todd's paresis of leg or legs- Taylor cannot stand but crawls approx. 90 metres to vehicle
-Confusion/ poor coordination, (depending on account) unable to start vehicle or steers vehicle into ditch (in daylight)
-Headache
-Phantosmia; Taylor continues to smell the burning odour at home, other people can't smell it
-Thirst
-Non-specific feeling of malaise / being unwell for approx. 2 days

We can't be sure if any of this is correct, but I think it's internally consistent, it conforms with what is known about symptoms of (and perceptions during) some seizures, and appears to offer an explanation for Robert Taylor's account and symptoms.
A history of meningitis- albeit 14 years earlier- and/ or hospitalisation for headaches earlier in 1979 might be relevant.

Some commentators remark that there was no evidence [other than his account and symptoms!] that Taylor had suffered a seizure.

A medical explanation could lie in an epileptic seizure being suffered by Mr Taylor but there was no evidence of this gathered at the time.

BBC News, Scotland, "The UFO sighting investigated by the police", 9 November 2019 Steven Brocklehurst
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655

However, Taylor only received a check-over by a local doctor, Dr Gordon Adams, a General Practitioner (from obituary

Dr Gordon James Harvey ADAMS Peacefully on Tuesday December 21, 2021, at Cairdean House Care Home in Colinton, Edinburgh, Dedicated GP for communities in Blackburn and Livingston, West Lothian, for 23 years

legacy.com website, originally published in The Scotsman 30 December 2021) who saw Taylor at his home,
"1979-Dechmont Woods-Abduction of Robert Taylor", B.J. Boothe, UFO Casebook website https://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html:

Dr. Gordon Adams would examine Taylor for his injuries. He found two scrapped places on Taylor, one on his left leg, and the other under his chin. Taylor had no apparent head injuries, and his body temperature, blood pressure, and other body signs were all within normal limits. Dr. Adams insisted on Taylor getting a head X-ray to rule out a concussion, and talk to a counselor, but Taylor put off the hospital visit until later.
...Taylor, along with his wife, did go to the hospital for testing, but left when he grew tired of waiting to be seen.

Mr Taylor said that after the UFO incident he was examined by the local doctor who called at his house. The doctor suggested he should go to nearby Bangour Hospital for a check-up and x-ray.
After waiting for two hours at the hospital he got fed up and left without being examined.

BBC News, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655

Why would Dr Adams want Robert Taylor to see a counsellor?
Taylor leaves without seeing any specialist (secondary care) clinicians or undergoing any investigations.
Bangour General Hospital was located in Dechmont, so it was very close for the Taylors,
see Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangour_General_Hospital.

Robert Taylor was probably a practical man. 59 or 60 at the time of his sighting (some sources say 61, but he died age 88 in 2007, Economist obituary), he might have been starting to think of retirement. His job involved routine use of a vehicle.

Dr Adams "did the right thing" in arranging a hospital follow-up for Robert Taylor, but knowing his situation, maybe Adams was reluctant to pursue the matter when Taylor didn't go through with it- as we've seen, two unprovoked seizures are normally the clinical criterion for a diagnosis of epilepsy (and its associated driving restrictions).
Entirely hypothetically Robert Taylor might have felt that, if a doctor suspected he had had a seizure, combined with his history of headaches, maybe further investigations were not what he needed at that time. He knew he hadn't had a seizure.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*As with UFOs as alien spacecraft, I'd be more persuaded by Steuart Campbell's celestial mirage theory if we actually had a decent timed and dated photo/ video of one from a checkable source.

But it might be a long wait, I think.
Maybe they're an explanation for orbs. On second thoughts, no, they're not.

 

[Giddierone]

I know the reports say that all forestry machinery was checked and didn't match the marks but can't help feel that maybe they missed something, since these marks look very much like those made by forestry machinery (like a forwarder) moving logs.
Also, it's unclear how long any machinery had time to fly away be removed before anyone could go to the site to inspect the ground marks.
Forestry machines are pretty scary with rotating moving parts that could be mistaken for roatating spikey mine-like spheres, and they often run bright working lights during the day (enough to cause a seizure?)
They sometimes have chains/tracks on just two sets of tyres.
We just don't know enough about the ground. Maybe it was just a bit softer there?

Then again there's the theory that "the phenomenon" mimics technology of the day in its presentations to us...

Soure: From Campbell's book (again).

Some forestry machines from the 1970s.

https://www.forestry-memories.org.uk/pictures/large/1617.jpg?r=463266

Note the tracks in this overhead shot.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxavqPOuH3OSKdnv48X2zmvIfC2HfotBZx?si=31XxGQ3ghlF3SNYg

The closest aerial shot I could find was this from 1988 (you need a subscription to download the hi-res version).
Comparing it the the map in #7 I think the red dot is where it occured.

In comparision with more recent photos it looks like the site might have been less densely forested / easier to access in a vehicle..

This is also labled 1988

Source: https://ncap.org.uk/sites/default/files/frames/download/000/000/199/NCAP-000-000-199-125.jpg

 

[John J.]

Forestry machines are pretty scary with rotating moving parts

Robert Taylor was a long-standing forestry worker for Livingston Council. He'd probably be familiar with most forestry machines, at least with their appearance.

 

[Giddierone]

Robert Taylor was a long-standing forestry worker for Livingston Council. He'd probably be familiar with most forestry machines, at least with their appearance.

Yes I know. I meant scary to most people. Like Campbell, I'm working on the idea that some real stimulus triggered his seizure - > amnesia / hallucination / misremembering and am wondering whether that could have been a real machine.

 

[Eburacum]

The tracks in the soil were actual material evidence, something that is extremely rare in UFO encounters. However these tracks don't look particularly alien, and could easily have been made by forestry workers or other workers with construction equipment. Indeed, I seem to remember that these tracks were recorded (by the police) some time after the area was cordoned off by a ring of fence posts, and it may have been the erection of those posts which caused the marks.

 

[Eburacum]

Here is a picture of a water tank in the area, which has a slight resemblance to the spherical object Taylor recalls seeing.

Perhaps he daydreamed this sighting after seeing the water tank.

I should point out that this tank is nearby, but on the other side of the motorway.

 

[Eburacum]

Taylor also had some mysterious corn starch on his trousers, which almost certainly was not alien.

My daughter (who knows about these things) tells me that starch grains are distinctively shaped according to species and strain, but I'm not sure how closely the police examined this material.

 

[John J.]

Taylor also had some mysterious corn starch on his trousers, which almost certainly was not alien.

The only unusual thing found was traces of a powder, which was identified simply as contact transfer from the sack the clothes were shipped in.

UFO Casebook website, "1979-Dechmont Woods- Abduction of Robert Taylor", B.J. Booth https://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html

Should say, I have no idea how reliable Booth's information is (though most of their account correlates with other sources, and it's more detailed than some- e.g. identifying the GP who saw Taylor, which appears to check out).

If the contact transfer is right, it doesn't say much for the police's collection and transport of evidence.
That said, we can't be sure how seriously they took the incident "behind closed doors". If the local police suspected an assault, the fact that Taylor was knocked unconscious would raise the seriousness, but I'm not sure they would have bothered with a full forensic investigation (and this was pre-DNA testing). Other than the torn trousers, I don't think there was any attempt by the police to take samples from or physically assess Taylor- they would have had a police-attached doctor available to examine victims of crime etc. and make a police record of injuries (nowadays called a Forensic Medical Examiner, but I don't know if that term was used in 1979), but they didn't go down that route.

 

[Giddierone]

Just adding newspaper clippings from 16 Nov 1979. Of note are mention of "land-mines" (which I'm sure will trigger @FatPhil to no end), "triangualr hoof-marks" (the diagram in Campbell's book has rounded horse-shoe shaped marks) and the comment about "it looked as if a bulldozer had been place and then lifted from the spot".

This one includes Bob's drawing - which is quite different to the artists impression up-thread. This clipping also says he saw "creatures" (another paper I saw repeated that claim).
It says he crawled a mile home then went to the hospital and was kept waiting 3 hours before he signed himself out. So does that mean quite a bit of time elapsed before anyone went to inspect the site?

Also, I couldn't help but notice the aesthetic similarities: circles, spheres, domes, general space vibes, (paredolia?) between Bob's drawing and a science fiction strip 'Lance McLane' by Sydney Jordan, that was running at the time - between Sept 1979 and the Nov sighting - in the Daily Record (Same paper that recieved the Calvine UFO photo). The kind of images you might only glance at, fall asleep reading, or find yourself absent mindedly staring at in a fish and chip wrapper...
(source in file names)

 

[John J.]

So does that mean quite a bit of time elapsed before anyone went to inspect the site?

Maybe not, Taylor visited the site with his supervisor before visiting the hospital (which he left before undergoing any examination).

His wife urged him to call the police, but Taylor felt that they would only laugh at him. Instead, he called his job supervisor, Malcom Drummond. Taylor went to clean himself up.

Drummond called a doctor, and he drove directly to Taylor's house. He was so eager to hear Taylor's story that he questioned him while he was in the tub. Drummond and Taylor both felt that there should be physical proof of the incident in the forest. Since the doctor was coming to check out Taylor, Drummond headed to the scene via Taylor's instructions, but he could not find the right location.

Dr. Gordon Adams would examine Taylor for his injuries... Dr. Adams insisted on Taylor getting a head X-ray to rule out a concussion, and talk to a counselor, but Taylor put off the hospital visit until later.
As soon as Drummond returned, Taylor joined him as the two went directly to the scene of the incident in the forest. Ground marking were obvious, and they called the police.

UFO Casebook, https://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html

It says he crawled a mile home

The top article (by Maurice Smith) says "He ran to his home...",
The second article (by Jim Davis, Daily Record) says "He crawled the one mile to his home...

Robert Taylor is believed to have arrived at the site at around 10:30 a.m., and walked a short distance before whatever rendered him unconscious, maybe for around 20 minutes

At that point, he lost consciousness and when he awoke around 20 minutes later, he was alone.

Scottish Daily Express, https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/weird-news/scotlands-most-mysterious-ufo-case-30582199

The next thing Mr Taylor remembered was waking up with his head pounding, a sore throat, and a bitter taste in his mouth. He later calculated that he had been unconscious for at least 20 minutes.

scotsman.com, 9 November 2004, Gareth Edwards via Wayback Machine https://web.archive.org/web/2010033....com/ufos/Im-after-the-aliens-that.2578730.jp

It's unlikely Robert Taylor either ran or crawled home in the approx. 30-40 minutes it took him to cover one mile.
It seems he crawled 90 yards or so back to his truck, then "found his legs" again, but couldn't drive properly.

He told the police he had been working alone checking fences and gates at Dechmont Woods at 10:30...
...Mr Taylor woke up in a dishevelled state 20 minutes later.
... He went to his van but was so shaken he drove it into a ditch and had to stagger home in "a dazed condition".

BBC News, Scotland https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655

To a considerable extent, there's an issue of what accounts/ retellings we accept, or think might be reliable.
There are several inconsistencies and contradictions between the various sources that we've found.

the diagram in Campbell's book has rounded horse-shoe shaped marks

I think the 'horse shoes' are meant to show what direction each hole was angled at, not what the holes looked like.

The 'horseshoes' and arrows indicate the direction in which the holes were angled.

Source: From Campbell's book (again).

But I could very well be wrong.

 

[John J.]

Long-ish post, the main points/ subjects are
(1) General musings about the ground markings, possible dimensions.
(2) The UFO landing gear was invented by "UFO investigators", contrary to Robert Taylor's description
(3) The "ladder" ground markings might have been more superficial than was generally reported
(4) 10cm diameter fenceposts, and many other things, can leave 10cm holes in the ground
(5) One account (BUFORA) quotes distances that support Taylor being at the clearing -less clear in other accounts,
(6) Maybe these RPVs look a bit like naval mines. Maybe not.


(1)

Thinking more about the ground markings from Steuart Campbell's book, usefully provided by @Giddierone:

If the holes were angled, maybe a small piece of mechanical plant was used to pull out some temporary fenceposts or similar?
Stick down some boards, roll in your trailer-mounted "pulling jib", and proceed, first taking out the posts on the left sequentially in a clockwise direction, move to the right and repeat, pulling them out in an anticlockwise direction
(depending on which direction we think the horseshoes indicate that the holes were angled).

Although the site was only approx. 1 mile, 1.61km from where he lived, I don't know if we know how familiar Robert Taylor was with this specific site. He might have routinely worked farther afield.

Another similar diagram is on the UFO Casebook site, https://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html, below left.
Below right: I removed the circle (not a ground marking, see below) and shrank the holes (they're only about 10cm wide).

Two types of ground markings were found at the scene. The first marks were two parallel ladder-like tracks, each about 2.5 meters long, and the same distance apart. There were also 40 holes around the tracks. They were 10 centimeters across.

UFO Casebook, link as above.

At first I thought this meant each horizontal line was 2.5m, 8'2" long, but this is incorrect; each "ladder" of horizontal lines is 2.5m long.

The circle- which is not a ground mark- represents the minimum diameter of the main object reported by Taylor, 20 feet, 6.1m.
We don't know how accurate the diagrams are, but using the rightmost set of lines as a "yardstick" of 2.5m, I tried to get some estimated dimensions.
All will be very approximate, with a sizeable margin of error (and depend on the accuracy of the diagrams we've found):

Above right: A wholly subjective impression, but the distribution of holes might be seen as describing two "borders", one around each "track". Each border has 20 holes (if we include the small clump top left with the border on the left).


(2)

Incidentally, in the various sources quoted in earlier posts, Robert Taylor always describes the main object as hovering.
He never describes visible landing gear.

Taylor himself was unable to produce a sketch of what he saw. The first attempt was made by David Hammond, then a student architect and the fiancé of his youngest daughter. This sketch showed the 'UFO' standing on four slender legs, but Taylor strenuously denied that he saw any legs...
...A team from the UFO Investigation Network (UFOIN) also visited Taylor and inspected the site of the incident. they saw it as the landing of a spacecraft and concluded that the smaller objects were 'devices'. They were sure that the 'craft' had rested upon the ground and caused impressions in it.

"Report on the investigation of the Bob Taylor encounter", Steuart Campbell, 1994, quoted on the UFO Evidence website
http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseSubarticle.asp?ID=688, my emphases (and added capitals, strangely none in the text).

However, we have a picture -maybe taken some years after the event, Taylor looks older than in 1979 photos- where he holds an artist's impression which shows ladder-shaped landing gear. But Taylor didn't see any landing gear.

The 'undercarriage' has in effect been invented by UFOIN to (physically) link the hovering UFO with markings on the ground, and Robert Taylor appears to be, at least implicitly, supporting this interpretation invented by people who hadn't seen what he saw, and in contradiction to his own reports/ comments.


(3)

Descriptions of the "ladder" markings by visitors to the site differ significantly:

Det Con Ian Wark, the scene of crime investigator, arrived at the clearing to find a large gathering of police officers were already there.
He told the BBC he saw strange marks on the ground. There were about 32 holes, which were about 3.5 inches in diameter, as well as marks similar to those made by the type of caterpillar tracks often fitted on bulldozers.
...The police report from the time said the marks on the ground indicated an "object of several tons had stood there but there was nothing to show that it had been driven or towed away".

(Det Con, more often DC = Detective Constable, the starting rank of UK police investigators)
BBC News, Scotland 19/11/2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50262655

However, the Journal of Transient Aerial Phenomena, quoted on the (link) UFO Casebook website, has a very different take:

The ground marks (see Figure 3) were of two types. First, there were two isolated ladder type "tracks" about 2.5 m long and the same distance apart. Each "rung" of the ladder (see Photograph 1), was 2 or 3 cm wide and deep, and about 30 cm long, and the area of grass between each "rung" was evenly flattened, but not as deeply as the "rungs". Although the "tracks" appear to be impressions made by a heavy object, the indentations were only in the grass; they did not alter the ground profile under the grass as they would have done if subjected to a heavy weight.

Did a quick search, Journal of Transient Aerial Phenomena was published by the British UFO Research Organisation, BUFORA
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_UFO_Research_Association). The quote is from Vol. 1 No. 2, March-April 1980,
"CLOSE ENCOUNTER IN SCOTLAND", PDF below, pages 41-46 (PDF pages 21-24).
The other issues of JTAP are available here, https://www.bufora.org.uk/Journal-of-Transient-Aerial-Phenomena.php, 19 issues total, July-August 1979- March '89.

The article includes photos of a "track mark" and a hole (see PDF); annoyingly there is no metre rule, tape measure or other indication of scale, and like other pictures in that issue they are low resolution, high contrast b+w, almost useless- but the text (quoted above) is useful: The amateur UFO group BUFORA seem less impressed (no pun intended) by the 'ladder' markings than DC Wark was. And BUFORA isn't a particularly sceptical group, see the Wikipedia entry (link above).
Speculation (rightly frowned upon here)- Dechmont is on the edge of countryside but in Scotland's Central Belt; the outskirts of Edinburgh are approx. 11.4 miles, 18.3 km away; Glasgow 27 miles, 43.5km. Maybe DC Wark was more familiar with urban areas than rural sites back then.

The track marks might be a bit of a nothing-burger. We don't know what caused them, but they probably didn't require any great weight or downward force. There's a photo of Taylor examining the markings- I think he's beside one of the tracks.

It might be telling that, for all the visits to the site, we don't have any good photos of the markings, and none in colour.
1979; I'd guess most households would have 1 or 2 film cameras (and if not, cameras weren't rare or too expensive).

(4)

The site was briefly fenced off (that's probably the fence behind Taylor in the pic above), I'd guess by Taylor's work colleagues, not the police.
Maybe someone had put up a temporary fence or fences there before- 10cm/ 4" diameter fenceposts aren't rare.
Steuart Campbell reported that the local water provider had conducted work about 100m away and that there were pipes cached in a nearby field; UK utilities are notorious for not communicating with each other or with local "stakeholders"; it's entirely possible that the water authority proceeded without liaising with the Livingston Development Corporation (Taylor's employer- not Livingston Council as I put earlier) and left some materials/ plant in a nearby clearing for a few days.

Essentially, if you find 10cm holes in the ground, there are many terrestrial possibilities to consider.

(5)

The JTAP/ BUFORA article was useful in another way; I found it difficult to understand Taylor's distance from the UFO from other accounts, e.g.

It took time for him to reach his pick-up truck as he was forced to crawl some 90 yards ( 82 meters) to it.

NICAP, The Livingston UFO Assault, which implies (to me) that Robert Taylor collapsed that distance from his vehicle.

He later reported seeing a spherical object around 21ft in diameter hovering above the forest floor almost 500 metres away.

Scottish Daily Express 29/07/23

But the JTAP/ BUFORA article's info tells us Taylor had to travel some 520 m, 569 yds back to his truck,

..he crawled on his hands and knees for about 90m back up the track down which he had walked. After that he managed to stand (unsteadily) and half staggered, half crawled the remaining 430 m to where his van was parked

-which ties in with him being close to/ at the clearing where he claimed to see the UFO.

(6)

My suspicions are that Robert Taylor had a seizure (post #13, also #15) without any external triggers, and that this adequately explains his account and symptoms; the ground markings are coincidental and unextraordinary.
But others here might have different ideas.

Perhaps these RPVs might, at a glance, be said to loosely resemble sea mines (thinking particularly about the undercarriage):

Westland Wisp, from 1976. Only 3 built AFAIK, a remotely piloted helicopter that sent back real time TV images.
In two pictures above it might appear dark grey, it's actually black and green camo. (Lower right might be a display model?)
Why any would end up near Dechmont village is a good question, but defence contractors and soldiers do unusual things at times.

Though I think it's extremely unlikely, maybe one or two of these things sufficiently startled Robert Taylor, or had sunlight reflected off its rotors, and induced a seizure; garbled perceptions led to him associating rotors with the main object -perhaps a large dark tarpaulin or pair of tarpaulins , edges not reaching the ground but tied to surrounding fence-posts, hence the holes. Visible portions of the supporting uprights/ material on the ground under the covers might have been green or camouflaged, blending with the background.

Light filtered through/ reflected off rotors can induce seizures in some people,
"Photic Fit Near A Helicopter", H. Foster, Military Hospital, Colchester in The Lancet 306 (7926) 1975,
can't access the article but the title is informative, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140673675901014;

Flicker vertigo (FV) is defined as "an imbalance in brain cell activity created by light sources that emit flickering rather than steady light," typified by nausea, vertigo, and, in rare cases, seizure activity.

"Unknown, Unrecognized, and Underreported: Flicker Vertigo in Helicopter Emergency Medical Services",
Kevin High, Amy Moore, Air Medical Journal 31 (3), 2012 https://www.airmedicaljournal.com/article/S1067-991X(11)00242-2/abstract

For anyone interested, YouTube video of Westland Wisp courtesy of the San Diego Air and Space Museum,
titled F 1287 Westland Wisp at Larkhill . The title screen of the film says "Westland Wisp Development Flights".


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtyD_5FQ0s8

 

[Eburacum]

There's a photo of Taylor examining the markings- I think he's beside one of the tracks.

Behind him we can see a newly-erected fence made from wooden posts and chicken wire; this seems to have been erected in an attempt to preserve the 'evidence'.

I am fairly sure that some, many, most or all of these marks were made when the workmen erected the posts, and not before.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Long-ish post, the main points/ subjects are
(1) General musings about the ground markings, possible dimensions.
(2) The UFO landing gear was invented by "UFO investigators", contrary to Robert Taylor's description
(3) The "ladder" ground markings might have been more superficial than was generally reported
(4) 10cm diameter fenceposts, and many other things, can leave 10cm holes in the ground
(5) One account (BUFORA) quotes distances that support Taylor being at the clearing -less clear in other accounts,
(6) Maybe these RPVs look a bit like naval mines. Maybe not.

Thanks for that deep dive John. It clearly indicates this case suffers from so many of the same problems other cases do that are then just sort of swept aside to create something that seems more compelling than it really is.

You've pointed out the various versions from Taylor and others that has melded together. Taylor empathically said there was NO landing gear. At first. But then there were the marks, so some UFOlogist filled in that gap in the story with some seriously janky-ass landing gear and Taylor just kinda went along with it.

Besides the newly created landing gear, UFOIN also seems to have created multiple additional UFOs which Taylor never mentioned, did he?

The police inspector felt the "ladder" markings were deep, significant and indicative of a piece of equipment. Others disagreed and NO ONE seems to have captured any sort of usable photo of these supposed marks. IF these marks are ~8' long and ~15" wide it would have been pretty easy to compare them to whatever pieces of equipment were normally used in the area. On the other hand, if this photo is supposedly of the "ladder" marks, there's not much to them:

Further speculating on the "ladder" marks suggested maybe they are just that, ladder marks. From your estimation of the measurements (which for some reason no other investigator had the foresight to record?):

The marks are ~8'2" long with ~15" wide perpendicular cross pieces that are spaced out ~12.3" apart. This prompted me to go out behind the shop and measure one of my old ladders:

This particular one was ~16" wide with ~14" wide rungs spaced out at 12" on center. Hmmmm? This ladder is made of 2 12' long sections to create what we would call a 20' extension ladder, but they come in all kinds of sizes. My assorted A-frame ladders are wider at the bottom than the top, but the ~12" spacing for the rungs is consistent.

I'm not saying for sure someone left a couple of ladders laying around that created marks on the ground. But it's much more likely ladders created this pattern than this ridiculously imagined janky-ass set up from UFOIN:

UFOlogist box themselves into corners by starting with the idea that a UFO landed and left these marks, so they have to imagine some set up that aliens from Zeta-Reticule, that have mastered FLT and crossed the cosmos, use to land on wet Scottish soil. "Zorg, strap the advanced-floatation-devices on so we don't sink in this boggy stuff while scaring the shit out of this human!" I'm sure some UFOlogist will just insist that the aliens use ladder-like landing gear to make it look like it was just a ladder laying there to cover their tracks.

As is often the case, the whole story makes no sense. Even if the original version is correct and the craft just hovered, that would just be a story. So, when some folks went out and found "evidence" on the ground, others added on to the original story, so it now had physical "evidence".

 

[Giddierone]

It might be telling that, for all the visits to the site, we don't have any good photos of the markings, and none in colour.

The video linked in #7 has some photos of the marks at [01:48] Although not very good ones. But there is a colour shot at [11:40].

There seems to be some confusion about the fence.

Who fenced off the area?
Malcolm Robinson - "the police had fenced off the area" [13:36]
Det Sgt. Ian Wark (the police?) in the old B&W footage points to the fenced off area and says the marks were inside fenced off area with no other tracks leading to or from the area. (does this makes it sound like the fence was already there?). [02:00]
Ian Wark (years later) - "When I arrived the area had been fenced off by Livingstone Development Corporation" [11:31] (at the request of the police?)
"fenced off by the Forestry Department" (http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case682.htm)

It just seems like the marks are coincidental.
Is there anything to confirm they appeared fresh?
Was that even the right location of the UFO sighting?
Where would you leave a piece of machinery (or some ladders) before collecting it and lifting it onto a wagon? Probably a clearing in the trees right?

Also, (because I think science fiction pervades all) the drawing with the verticle props is reminiscent of Jules Verne's Clipper of the Clouds (1887)

Thanks for that deep dive John.

Agreed. These summaries / links etc are really useful.

 

[John J.]

I am fairly sure that some, many, most or all of these marks were made when the workmen erected the posts, and not before.

I hadn't thought of that.
-The holes might still be a problem, they were documented by police the same day, which I guess they wouldn't be if there were fenceposts in them!

As at Rendlesham Forest just over 13 months later, I think @Giddierone is right, the markings are coincidental.
(Well done on the colour picture).

"When I arrived the area had been fenced off by Livingstone Development Corporation"

If the attending police really thought that the area needed securing, you'd think they'd put up a "POLICE : STOP" sign or two.
Maybe in the first instance make a mine tape perimeter on pin stakes like they normally would.
(I don't know when marked police incident tape came into use in the UK, seem to remember seeing it on US TV shows/ news reports on (UK) TV and thinking, "That's a good idea").

One of the attending police officers might have taken the initiative and asked Malcom Drummond (Taylor's supervisor) if his department could quickly put up a fence, or maybe Drummond or another LDC Forestry Dept. employee volunteered.
But if the police as an organisation thought a serious incident had happened, or that there might be a threat to health, we might expect other agencies to be involved- Fire services traditionally attended and assessed possible toxic spills/ radiation incidents in the UK.
The police had mobile forensics/ scientific support units back then but it doesn't seem any attended the site.

If local police (in 1979, Lothian and Borders Police) really thought that there was a possibility of an alien spacecraft having landed, they might have thought the investigation should be managed by someone of higher rank than a Detective Constable.