Sandy Hook: Unexplained gunshots?

Kerensa

Closed Account
What is there to unravel about the crime? Crazy kid shoots up a school. That's it. The rest is trivia.
The audio expert hired to analyze the gunshots audible in the 911 calls, Paul Ginsberg, recorded a very loud, clear gunshot at 9:46:54 a.m., almost seven minutes after the final gunshot as claimed by Stephen Sedensky in the report summary. I've heard that shot, and so have some in the press; it would be very hard to explain it away, all the more so in that it sounds very much like some of the shots previous to it.

There are a lot of questions. Too many to count. The 911 call audio, in fact, has audible gunfire not just at 9:46, but between 9:46 and 9:51:31 a.m. (when, incidentally, Officer Penna stated he heard a gunshot).

If Adam Lanza was dead, someone else was shooting. That alone is reason enough to continue investigating.

All the audio is publicly available; I encourage those interested to take a listen.

A writer at the Courant contacted Ginsberg to ask about the late shot; Ginsberg said he couldn't speak without the permission of the CSP (incidentally, I just saw Ginsberg on CNN not long ago, weighing in on the MH370 audio. Interesting man.)

This stuff isn't conspiracy, it's, unfortunately, just what sometimes happens. Any case of this magnitude is fraught with issues and tensions and contrasting needs of the various agencies involved.

Ginsberg's report is here: Book 4, 00175096
 

deirdre

Senior Member
The audio expert hired to analyze the gunshots audible in the 911 calls, Paul Ginsberg, recorded a very loud, clear gunshot at 9:46:54 a.m., almost seven minutes after the final gunshot as claimed by Stephen Sedensky in the report summary. I've heard that shot, and so have some in the press; it would be very hard to explain it away, all the more so in that it sounds very much like some of the shots previous to it.

There are a lot of questions. Too many to count. The 911 call audio, in fact, has audible gunfire not just at 9:46, but between 9:46 and 9:51:31 a.m. (when, incidentally, Officer Penna stated he heard a gunshot).

If Adam Lanza was dead, someone else was shooting. That alone is reason enough to continue investigating.

All the audio is publicly available; I encourage those interested to take a listen.

A writer at the Courant contacted Ginsberg to ask about the late shot; Ginsberg said he couldn't speak without the permission of the CSP (incidentally, I just saw Ginsberg on CNN not long ago, weighing in on the MH370 audio. Interesting man.)

This stuff isn't conspiracy, it's, unfortunately, just what sometimes happens. Any case of this magnitude is fraught with issues and tensions and contrasting needs of the various agencies involved.

Ginsberg's report is here: Book 4, 00175096
bunk.
where exactly does Penna say he heard a gunshot? because its not in his statement Book 6 #258036
and I don't see this 9:51 shot
I see one single 'possible' shot after 9:40. and obviously it was determined not to be a gunshot or not to be from Lanza or they would have changed the time of death.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
bunk.
where exactly does Penna say he heard a gunshot? because its not in his statement Book 6 #258036
and I don't see this 9:51 shot
I see one single 'possible' shot after 9:40. and obviously it was determined not to be a gunshot or not to be from Lanza or they would have changed the time of death.
Who determined it not to be a gunshot?

Ginsberg listed multiple shots in the audio he was given (he was not given all the audio, only select Newtown calls); and the final shot he detailed was at 9:46:54 a.m.

Not only is the gunshot clear as a bell, there is an equally-clear, distinct echo (or return fire, but I think it's an echo, although the timing is a bit long--but the building had long halls). That is a gunshot, and anyone who has fired a weapon will know it immediately. Obviously, Ginsberg concurred.

The audio is available for all to hear. If you listen, you will hear that shot, as well as the shots following it. Not only that, you will hear teachers, dispatchers, and police reacting to these post-9:40 shots.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
Who determined it not to be a gunshot?

Ginsberg listed multiple shots in the audio he was given (he was not given all the audio, only select Newtown calls); and the final shot he detailed was at 9:46:54 a.m.

Not only is the gunshot clear as a bell, there is an equally-clear, distinct echo (or return fire, but I think it's an echo, although the timing is a bit long--but the building had long halls). That is a gunshot, and anyone who has fired a weapon will know it immediately. Obviously, Ginsberg concurred.

The audio is available for all to hear. If you listen, you will hear that shot, as well as the shots following it. Not only that, you will hear teachers, dispatchers, and police reacting to these post-9:40 shots.
I didn't ask about any of that. [...]
 
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deirdre

Senior Member
The audio expert hired to analyze the gunshots audible in the 911 calls, Paul Ginsberg, recorded a very loud, clear gunshot at 9:46:54 a.m., almost seven minutes after the final gunshot as claimed by Stephen Sedensky in the report summary. I've heard that shot, and so have some in the press; it would be very hard to explain it away, all the more so in that it sounds very much like some of the shots previous to it.

There are a lot of questions. Too many to count. The 911 call audio, in fact, has audible gunfire not just at 9:46, but between 9:46 and 9:51:31 a.m. (when, incidentally, Officer Penna stated he heard a gunshot).

If Adam Lanza was dead, someone else was shooting. That alone is reason enough to continue investigating.

All the audio is publicly available; I encourage those interested to take a listen.

A writer at the Courant contacted Ginsberg to ask about the late shot; Ginsberg said he couldn't speak without the permission of the CSP (incidentally, I just saw Ginsberg on CNN not long ago, weighing in on the MH370 audio. Interesting man.)

This stuff isn't conspiracy, it's, unfortunately, just what sometimes happens. Any case of this magnitude is fraught with issues and tensions and contrasting needs of the various agencies involved.

Ginsberg's report is here: Book 4, 00175096
@Kerensa you still haven't answered my question. gish galloping me in PM isn't going to get you off the hook.

question: WHERE does Officer Penna (or ANY responder or witness, including custodian Rick Thorne Book5 #63270) state they heard a gunshot at 9:51?
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
You can find a detailed look at this question at GLP (several threads).

A writer at the Courant is also looking into this, and additional documents are being FOIA'd.

In short, NPD officer Lenny Penna gave a talk (one of multiple nationwide talks) to 800 colleagues at a law enforcement conference in Orlando, FL; he stated that as he was about to follow William Chapman and team into Room 10, he heard a gunshot which turned him (Penna) back around to run into Room 8 and retrieve S.H., the lone survivor of Ms. Rousseau's class. We know from officer testimony, corroborated with police radio and entered into the police report timeline, that the moment Chapman and team entered Room 10, in formation, was precisely 9:51:31 a.m. The primary source for that timestamp is officers transmitting "CLEAR!" twice in rapid succession, the first time at 9:51:31 a.m.

One source for Penna's conference:

"He then entered into the first classroom and heard a shot. "My first thought was one of our guys shot him," he said. So he ran back, grabbed the girl, and took her out -- before learning that the shooter had shot himself."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/newtown-school-police_n_3601282.html

Officers did not breach the school until approximately 9:46 a.m., so any shot heard while inside the building came at least 6 minutes after the official "final" shot fired that day. There are multiple shots audible in 911 calls up until what appears to be a final shot or shots at 9:51:31. I believe one of the clearest examples is in Ms. Pisani's call; precisely at 9:51:31, during her call, there is a short, muffled, but distinct noise consistent with the other shots that can be heard during her call. Ms. Pisani was on a cell phone in Room 1, quite a ways down the hall from 10.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member
I don't think the discussion will be able to continue here, Deirdre, but you can find a detailed look at this question at GLP (several threads).

A writer at the Courant is also looking into this, and additional documents are being FOIA'd.

In short, NPD officer Lenny Penna gave a talk (one of multiple nationwide talks) to 800 colleagues at a law enforcement conference in Orlando, FL; he stated that as he was about to follow William Chapman and team into Room 10, he heard a gunshot which turned him (Penna) back around to run into Room 8 and retrieve S.H., the lone survivor of Ms. Rousseau's class. We know from officer testimony, corroborated with police radio and entered into the police report timeline, that the moment Chapman and team entered Room 10, in formation, was precisely 9:51:31 a.m. The primary source for that timestamp is officers transmitting "CLEAR!" twice in rapid succession, the first time at 9:51:31 a.m.

One source for Penna's conference:

"He then entered into the first classroom and heard a shot. "My first thought was one of our guys shot him," he said. So he ran back, grabbed the girl, and took her out -- before learning that the shooter had shot himself."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/newtown-school-police_n_3601282.html

Officers did not breach the school until approximately 9:46 a.m., so any shot heard while inside the building came at least 6 minutes after the official "final" shot fired that day. There are multiple shots audible in 911 calls up until what appears to be a final shot or shots at 9:51:31. I believe one of the clearest examples is in Ms. Pisani's call; precisely at 9:51:31, during her call, there is a short, muffled, but distinct noise consistent with the other shots that can be heard during her call. Ms. Pisani was on a cell phone in Room 1, quite a ways down the hall from 10.

But I think we'll need to stop there, at least in this thread.
I see nothing in any statements, on any timeline showing that a shot was heard at 9:51. there is nothing on 911 calls at 9:51. I don't see Officer Penna stating he heard a gunshot at 9:51 (or anytime after 9:46 or 9:41 for that matter).

Present these sources or stop posting falsehoods.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
This shot is audible in the 911 audio.

Pisani's call starts at 9:50:35 a.m. and is found in Exhibit 349 (the CSP 911 and dispatch audio files), named "StartTime 2012-12-14 14-50-35 Logger 45170321 Channel 3 RadiREDACTED."

The shot is at 00:56 into this call, which equates perfectly to 9:51:31 on the timeline...right where Sedensky himself stated the shooter response team entered Room 10.

Officer Penna stated he heard a shot as his men entered Room 10, and he further stated he thought one of his guys had shot the perpetrator; not only did Penna state he heard a shot, but that that shot caused him to reverse direction back to Room 8, in order to extract S.H., the lone survivor.

9:51:31 a.m. EST is the exact moment that police audio indicates officers yelling "CLEAR!" and "We have one suspect down," and even Sedensky (actually, more likely the CSP) indicates in the timeline that that's the precise moment Chapman, Cario et al entered Room 10.

Summary:

1. The official story says Penna was running from Room 8 to Room 10 at exactly 9:51:31

2. Penna says when he was running from Room 8 to Room 10, he heard a shot and ran back to Room 8, assuming his guys had shot someone in Room 10

3. Police audio at 9:51:31 indicates officers yelling "CLEAR!" just as they storm the room, followed by "We've got one suspect down." They then do this again--yell "CLEAR!" and "We've got a suspect down."

4. There is now a 911 call available, one of Pisani's (a teacher in Room 1) that has a sharp noise on it at exactly 9:51:31.

I would add to that that the observation that Penna left the surviving child in Room 8 because he didn't feel the scene was safe enough to bring her out; when he heard the shot at 9:51:31, not only did he feel the shooter had been taken down, but this caused him to reverse direction to get the child. He stated he did not see anything in Room 10; therefore what turned him around was one thing and one thing only: a sound which he interpreted as the shooter being shot by police.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
Officer Penna stated he heard a shot as his men entered Room 10
no he didn't. according to your link HE said
the writer for the Huffington post said he heard a shot. penna did not say this.

the only 'sharp noise' according to your gunshot experts charts is at 9:46 on Rick Thorne's call. which must have later been determined not to be a gunshot as no responder, staff member or neighbor who was hearing shots before 9:40 reported hearing an additional shot 5 minutes after the original volley of shots were fired.

you are mistaken. You are taking one account of lax reporting vs. dozens and dozens of witness statements as well as audio evidence.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
What is so compelling about this moment in time, beyond the fact that I personally find a Newtown officers early recollections of the event compelling (and those early recollections described a gunshot), is the number of pieces of evidence which converge, right down to the second.

At 9:51:31 a.m., we have the following:

1. Lead investigator, Stephen Sedensky, based on his own analysis of the data, stating this is the precise moment an active shooter team stormed Room 10
2. Newtown Police Department radio transmission of officers yelling "CLEAR!" followed by "We have one suspect down."
3. A distinct noise on Deb Pisani's 911 call
4. An officer and witness stating he heard a shot at this moment and that it caused him to reverse direction and bring out a child into an area now considered potentially cleared of shooters, whereas only seconds before, it was considered not cleared of shooters

It these things had happened within even one minute's time, they wouldn't be nearly so compelling; but to have them converging not on a known minute, but a known second, is more than any investigator would need to consider it compelling and in need of further explanation. That is precisely why reporters are looking into it.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
no he didn't. according to your link HE said
the writer for the Huffington post said he heard a shot. penna did not say this.

the only 'sharp noise' according to your gunshot experts charts is at 9:46 on Rick Thorne's call. which must have later been determined not to be a gunshot as no responder, staff member or neighbor who was hearing shots before 9:40 reported hearing an additional shot 5 minutes after the original volley of shots were fired.

you are mistaken. You are taking one account of lax reporting vs. dozens and dozens of witness statements as well as audio evidence.
Ginsberg was given a set number of calls to analyze; no call he was tasked with reached 9:51:31 a.m. in time.

The noise I'm referring to at 9:51:31 a.m. is on Deb Pisani's call, cited above.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
Keep in mind the terrible position it puts NPD and CSP responders in if we are genuinely suggesting that it took them until 9:51:31 a.m. to find a shooter who had been dead for 11 and a half minutes, as children lay hemorrhaging.

What if OE, BW and AMG had been transported ten minutes earlier, for example?

There is a reason they were not; and that is because officers were receiving or hearing gunfire long after 9:40 a.m.

It's all in the police audio and 911 calls - gunshots, officers yelling in response, more gunshots, dispatchers saying, "Is that the shooter? Is that the shooter?" Officers running through the hall yelling, "Did you hear shooting?" and then more gunshots.

All of this happens at and after 9:46 a.m.

In order to fully understand this issue, one must really listen to all the 911 calls and police audio, at least from that timeframe.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
What is so compelling about this moment in time, beyond the fact that I personally find a Newtown officers early recollections of the event compelling (and those early recollections described a gunshot), is the number of pieces of evidence which converge, right down to the second.

At 9:51:31 a.m., we have the following:

1. Lead investigator, Stephen Sedensky, based on his own analysis of the data, stating this is the precise moment an active shooter team stormed Room 10
2. Newtown Police Department radio transmission of officers yelling "CLEAR!" followed by "We have one suspect down."
3. A distinct noise on Deb Pisani's 911 call
4. An officer and witness stating he heard a shot at this moment and that it caused him to reverse direction and bring out a child into an area now considered potentially cleared of shooters, whereas only seconds before, it was considered not cleared of shooters

It these things had happened within even one minute's time, they wouldn't be nearly so compelling; but to have them converging not on a known minute, but a known second, is more than any investigator would need to consider it compelling and in need of further explanation. That is precisely why reporters are looking into it.
Please stop just flatly claiming things. If you want to make a case, then back up each of your claims of evidence with a link to the source, and a quote from that source. So far all you've done is linked a Huffington Post article.

Any more claims without supporting evidence will be deleted.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
What is so compelling about this moment in time, beyond the fact that I personally find a Newtown officers early recollections of the event compelling (and those early recollections described a gunshot
No they do NOT. the huffing ton post writer wrote
if he was IN the classroom with Lanza at that time and his thought was
he would have SEEN the shot. as he was at that time , according to your article IN THE ROOM.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
You are welcome to exclude Penna's statement, though I don't choose to. You may even choose to exclude the 9:51:31 a.m. shot.

There remains more than enough compelling evidence of multiple shots fired after 9:40:03 a.m., certainly compelling enough to investigate further.

It is not logical, nor in responders' best interests, to genuinely suggest they spent over 11.5 minutes trying to find a shooter who lay only several feet from two deceased adults, in a hallway filled with gunsmoke, and that as they looked for the single individual for 11.5 minutes, children lay dying.

It is far more logical to suggest that the loud gunshots, yelling, and witness reaction to shots continuing to be fired, indicate officers engaged with a fleeing shooter, a shooter who was not down at 9:40:03. Some officers in fact have stated the shooter "ducked into a classroom" .... I'll find a ref.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
You are welcome to exclude Penna's statement, though I don't choose to. You may even choose to exclude the 9:51:31 a.m. shot.

There remains more than enough compelling evidence of multiple shots fired after 9:40:03 a.m., certainly compelling enough to investigate further.
I'm very happy to include Pennas statement
Penna Book6 #258036

Penna's quotes from your article regarding your assertion
 

deirdre

Senior Member
Pisani's call starts at 9:50:35 a.m. and is found in Exhibit 349 (the CSP 911 and dispatch audio files), named "StartTime 2012-12-14 14-50-35 Logger 45170321 Channel 3 RadiREDACTED."

4. There is now a 911 call available, one of Pisani's (a teacher in Room 1) that has a sharp noise on it at exactly 9:51:31.
I don't hear anything, no loud noises at all. The teacher doesn't mention a shot even though in her previous .wavs she says when there is shooting. at around 3 minutes in the dispatcher asks her what she is hearing and again she never mentions a loud noise.

from Exhibit 349. the teacher from room1 who you refer to as Pisani:
call started at 9:37:18 and lasted 3:30 minutes. (14:37:18)
call started at 9:40:46 last 1:32 minutes (14:40:46)
call started at 9:50:35 lasts 4:30 minutes (14:50:35)
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
4. An officer and witness stating he heard a shot at this moment and that it caused him to reverse direction and bring out a child into an area now considered potentially cleared of shooters, whereas only seconds before, it was considered not cleared of shooters
Where is the statement that establishes this?
Is it only from a public talk that this information comes, not the report?
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
Are you serious?

I said, "Hello Mick, I'd like to delete my account. Appreciate it, Kerensa Gwir."
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
So you do like the format?
I have never said anything about the format one way or the other.

It's an interesting forum and you have the right to run it as you see fit, but it isn't fair for you to say I "didn't like the format" when I said no such thing.

I was very polite with my request, no drama, and you responded by misquoting me.

Sorry, but that's a bit low, mate.

I've tried to remain polite here, and it's unfortunate to not have the gesture returned.

Nonetheless, as I stated in the post you deleted, I wish all here the best.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I have never said anything about the format one way or the other.

It's an interesting forum and you have the right to run it as you see fit, but it isn't fair for you to say I "didn't like the format" when I said no such thing.

I was very polite with my request, no drama, and you responded by misquoting me.

Sorry, but that's a bit low, mate.

I've tried to remain polite here, and it's unfortunate to not have the gesture returned.

Nonetheless, as I stated in the post you deleted, I wish all here the best.
Sorry, I assumed because you refused to post according to the format, and you then left, then this indicated to me that you did not like it.
 

JRBids

Senior Member
I think it's the rules she doesn't like. Actually expecting her to post links to her claims.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think it's the rules she doesn't like. Actually expecting her to post links to her claims.
I'd include rules in the general descriptor of "format". I should have been more clear.

But yes, posting claims without evidence was the problem. Especially when the claims should be so easily verifiable. Quotes and suchlike.
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member
I don't understand why anyone would post such claims anywhere, let alone on a site that specifically indicates that claims should be backed up, and then be utterly unable to post any evidence of these claims other than a news article and the interpretation of a journalist.
 
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