Russian state run media calling for genocide?

Abdullah

Active Member
I just read with indescribable horror this: https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html

Some quotes from the article

>However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, carried out with the utmost care and discretion in relation to civilians.

>The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
The upside-down thing is that Ukraine is one of the least "nazi" countries in Europe.

This is pretty typical RIA state propaganda. Stuff like this has been coming out for many weeks, if not months. Alas, plenty of Russians seem to be lapping it up.
 

Abdullah

Active Member
I really want to believe that this is something they pull every time they attack a neighbor eg: Georgia needs to be denazified! We must occupy it and reeducate the population! I am not ready for WW3

Or even better, that thus is the first time and there is a conspiracy to get rid of Putin.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Ukraine is one of the least "nazi" countries in Europe.
It all depends on what you're looking at, compare
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ne...oppose-un-resolution-condemning-nazism.12301/ and https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ukraine-national-guard-dip-bullets-in-pig-fat.12304/ .

That said, there aren't really that many neonazis in Ukraine, and if Russia wanted to restrict their access to power, that could easily be negotiated. It's nowhere near like the Ria article suggests.
 

Abdullah

Active Member
A Russian commentator on Quora had the following take https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Russia-choose-violence-over-dialogue-in-Ukraine
chrome_screenshot_1653282376629.png
 

Vertigo

New Member
The upside-down thing is that Ukraine is one of the least "nazi" countries in Europe.
What other european countries have incorporated neo nazi militias in their national army or still have dozens of statues of openly anti-Semitic nazi collaborators and honor them as national heros?

The far right may not have a lot of elected political power in Ukraine (yet, as almost all other political opposition parties have recently been outlawed), they yield very significant power and calling Ukraine the "least nazi country in europe" is just whitewashing.

A little background for those who only follow mainstream media:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
What other european countries have incorporated neo nazi militias in their national army

After a military invasion by an enemy force? I don't know, but I'd guess all of them - can you name some counter-examples? It's the kind of thing you consider doing when you're under potentially existential threat.
 

Vertigo

New Member
After a military invasion by an enemy force?

After? The azov battalion was founded in 1984 and incorporated in to the Ukrainian army in 2014.

I don't know, but I'd guess all of them - can you name some counter-examples?

You are asking me for an example of a country that did not incorporate neo nazi regiments before (or even after) a foreign invasion? Pretty much every country involved in any war anywhere since ww2? How many swastika flags did you see in Vietnam or Iraq ? Maybe you could argue some Serbian elements during the Kosovo war, but then we called them out as such and bombed them, instead of training them and arming with billions worth of weapons and calling them heros for defending their country from foreign invaders.
 

Vertigo

New Member
BTW, if my own country was one day invaded, and my government turned to neonazi groups to defend it, and fight in its name, groups who openly proclaim to want to rid my country of jews and homosexuals and roma and foreigners, I would immediately switch sides and fight with whatever country is invading mine and fight against those nazis and the government that arms and funds it.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
What other european countries have incorporated neo nazi militias in their national army or still have dozens of statues of openly anti-Semitic nazi collaborators and honor them as national heros?
Austria / Kurt Waldheim (Alexander Löhr) / FPÖ

France / Philippe Petain / Le Pen

Article:
ZAGREB, Croatia (AP) — Poland’s prime minister claims Jews took part in their own destruction in the Holocaust. His Hungarian counterpart declares that the “color” of Europeans should not mix with that of Africans and Arabs. And the Croatian president has thanked Argentina for welcoming notorious pro-Nazi war criminals after World War II.


Every couple of years, Germany seems to notice a garrison or two that's still named after some WW2 war criminal, and renames them.

Bandera is important for Ukraine, because while he was a Fascist, he did not want Germany to annex Ukraine (Lwiw has a German name!), and stands for Ukrainian independence and statehood. It's complicated. (There's a similar ambiguity in the USA regarding the Founding Fathers and slave ownership.)

Edit: if you count Russia as European, the Wagner group fighting with them is fairly Nazi, as are others.
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
How many swastika flags did you see in Vietnam or Iraq ?
Article:
scoutsniperflagmaster.jpg
When Marine investigators learned last November that a scout sniper platoon in Afghanistan was using a Nazi SS flag as its standard

Maybe you could argue some Serbian elements during the Kosovo war, but then we called them out as such and bombed them, instead of training them
you're going to be surprised to learn who trains Ukrainian nazi soldiers:
Detailed evidence in the report, including photos taken from social media and posts from messaging platforms, show members of Centuria performing Nazi salutes. They also bragged online about receiving training from foreign military forces including those of Canada, Germany, the U.S. and the U.K.

Also compare:
Article:
In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.


BTW, if my own country was one day invaded, and my government turned to neonazi groups to defend it
What is your country?
 
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FatPhil

Senior Member.
After? The azov battalion was founded in 1984 and incorporated in to the Ukrainian army in 2014.

Your timeline's distorted. It was incorporated into the National Guard many months after the start of the Russo-Ukrainian War, and at that point it had already seen action as a militia defending its homeland against the invader.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Article: scoutsniperflagmaster.jpg
When Marine investigators learned last November that a scout sniper platoon in Afghanistan was using a Nazi SS flag as its standard Source: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/exclusive-marines-nazi-flag-whistleblower-talks/
except that was not acceptable. they weren't incorporated into the military. You are strawmanning Vertigos question.

Article:
A US Marine scout sniper unit in Afghanistan posed for a photo in front of a flag resembling the logo of the Nazi SS, the Marine Corps says.

In a statement, a Marine spokesman said use of the SS symbol was not acceptable, and that the Corps had now addressed the issue.
 

Vertigo

New Member
yep, and 2014 was the year Russia invaded—that's FatPhil's point.
Then he is wrong.
you're going to be surprised to learn who trains Ukrainian nazi soldiers
What makes you think Im surprised?? The west has been training azov and other extreme right ukrainian forces since forever. Thats as much proof of them not being neo nazi as arming and funding the Taliban in the 80s, or Al Nusra and other Al Quada spin offs in Syria was proof of them not being islamist extremists. Western powers dont give a hoot who they train, arm and fund as long they hate russians or any other local opponents more than they hate them; that doesnt mean we should just go along with it or deny their reality.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
What makes you think Im surprised??
the fact that you argued "we called them out instead of training them"
(obviously your use of 'we' may not encompass those countries training Ukrainian officers, you haven't specified)
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
except that was not acceptable. they weren't incorporated into the military.
Article:
Irregular Army: How the US Military Recruited Neo-Nazis, Gang Members, and Criminals to Fight the War on Terror Paperback – February 3, 2015

by Matt Kennard

Since the launch of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars—now the longest wars in American history—the US military has struggled to recruit troops. It has responded, as Matt Kennard’s explosive investigative report makes clear, by opening its doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists, gang members, criminals of all stripes, the overweight, and the mentally ill. Based on several years of reporting, Irregular Army includes extensive interviews with extremist veterans and leaders of far-right hate groups—who spoke openly of their eagerness to have their followers acquire military training for a coming domestic race war. As a report commissioned by the Department of Defense itself put it, “Effectively, the military has a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy pertaining to extremism.”
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Article:
Irregular Army: How the US Military Recruited Neo-Nazis, Gang Members, and Criminals to Fight the War on Terror Paperback – February 3, 2015

by Matt Kennard

Since the launch of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars—now the longest wars in American history—the US military has struggled to recruit troops. It has responded, as Matt Kennard’s explosive investigative report makes clear, by opening its doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists, gang members, criminals of all stripes, the overweight, and the mentally ill. Based on several years of reporting, Irregular Army includes extensive interviews with extremist veterans and leaders of far-right hate groups—who spoke openly of their eagerness to have their followers acquire military training for a coming domestic race war. As a report commissioned by the Department of Defense itself put it, “Effectively, the military has a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy pertaining to extremism.”
oh pfft.

strawman again.
 

Vertigo

New Member
Bandera is important for Ukraine, because while he was a Fascist, he did not want Germany to annex Ukraine (Lwiw has a German name!), and stands for Ukrainian independence and statehood. It's complicated.
Its not complicated. Fatphill claimed Ukraine was "one of the least nazi countries in Europe". Finland's history in WW2 is also "complicated", yet Im not aware of any Finish monuments or streets named after nazi collaborating fascist anti semite war criminals responsible for the ethnic cleansing and murder of more than 100 thousand innocent civilians.

You mention lviv:

A national survey conducted in Ukraine in 2009 inquired about attitudes by region towards Bandera's faction of the OUN. It produced the following results: In Galicia (provinces of Lviv, Ternopil, and Ivano-Frankivsk) 37% had a "very positive" opinion of Bandera, 26% a "mostly positive" opinion, 20% were "neutral", 5% "mostly negative", 6% "very negative", and 6% "unsure".

Apparently being a fascist antisemite mass murderer is just fine for a majority of the population there, because he was also a nationalist? If Ukraine is the "least nazi" country, what are all those european countries that are "more nazi" ?
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
Its not complicated. Fatphill claimed Ukraine was "one of the least nazi countries in Europe". Finland's history in WW2 is also "complicated", yet Im not aware of any Finish monuments or streets named after nazi collaborating fascist anti semite war criminals responsible for the ethnic cleansing and murder of more than 100 thousand innocent civilians.

I can check that the monument to Risto Ryti is still there in Etu-Töölö, as I shall be there tomorrow. In order to get there, I'll have to go past the monument to Mannerheim at the bottom of Mannerheimintie.
East Karelian concentration camps were a set of concentration camps operated by the Finnish government in the areas of the Soviet Union occupied by the Finnish military administration during the Continuation War. These camps were organized by the armed forces supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.[1] The camps were intended to hold camp detainees for future exchange with the Finnic population from the rest of Russia. The mortality rate of civilians in the camps was high due to famine and disease: by some estimates, 4279 civilians died in these camps, meaning a rough mortality rate of 17%.[2]
Content from External Source
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_camps

You were saying... ?
 

Vertigo

New Member
Stats are near the top of the thread.
Those stats have nothing to do with nazi support. I know very well some of the extreme right parties mentioned in it, as much as I may detest their policies, they have practically nothing in common with nazi-ism.

By contrast in large parts of Ukraine, a fascist, ethnic cleansing, anti semite, white supremacist mass murderer is probably the most popular person, dead or alive, by a pretty long stretch. Where else in Europe is this happening? Are tens of millions of Germans still revering Joseph Mengele because of his advances in medical science? Are there museums and monuments honoring Reinhard Heydrich athletic accomplishments?
 

Vertigo

New Member
citation needed
I just quoted the numbers. Who do you think would be more popular that less than 11% of the polled population would have a negative view on that person or the political organisation he created? Im going on a limb and say probably no one, but feel free to offer suggestions.
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
Are you comparing Mannerheim with Bandera, or his monument with Ukraine's adoration of Bandera and his OUN? Fine, lets call Finland the most nazi country in Europe. Who are the next 20 European countries?

Start of a Gish Gallop detected.

I would claim that electing a jewish head of state was a pretty good indicator that there's no over-riding nazi sentiment in the country. How many other european countries have a jewish head of state?
 

FatPhil

Senior Member.
I just quoted the numbers. Who do you think would be more popular that less than 11% of the polled population would have a negative view on that person or the political organisation he created? Im going on a limb and say probably no one, but feel free to offer suggestions.

Firstly, please reread the posting guidelines - quote (to save others' effort and mitigate link rot) *and* link (to permit verification and contextualisation)

However, the quote above that had numbers in does not support the much broader claim in the post I just requested support for. In fact, as there was no indication of what precise question was asked, it supports nothing, it's a paraphrase.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Bandera is important for Ukraine, because while he was a Fascist, he did not want Germany to annex Ukraine (Lwiw has a German name!), and stands for Ukrainian independence and statehood. It's complicated.
Too complicated for Melnyk, Ukraine's ambassador to Germany.
Article:
Poland’s foreign ministry has intervened after Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany denied that Ukrainian national leader Stepan Bandera was responsible for the mass murder of ethnic Poles and Jews, and also sought to justify his collaboration with Nazi Germany.

The episode has renewed tensions over what has long been a sensitive issue in Polish-Ukrainian relations. In response, Ukraine’s foreign ministry has distanced itself from the words of the ambassador, Andrii Melnyk, saying that they were just his “own opinion”.

[Journalist Tilo] Jung asked Melnyk how a figure resposible for mass murder could be treated as a hero today in Ukraine. The ambassador answered by claiming that “Bandera was not a mass murderer of Jews and Poles”. He said that such claims are part of a “Russian narrative”.

Jung then quoted a propaganda leaflet signed by Bandera calling for Russians, Poles, Hungarian and Jews to be “wiped out”. Melnyk responded that he “will not distance myself from it. That’s my decision [even if] you may not understand it”.

“There is no evidence that the Banderites murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews,” claimed Melnyk. Regarding the murder of Poles, he argued that “there were also massacres of Poles against Ukraine…It was a war”.

On the issue of Bandera’s collaboration with Nazi Germany, the ambassador noted that there were “collaborators all over Europe – in France, Belgium, in every country”. Bandera was simply using the conflict between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union to gain independence for Ukraine, he argued.

Between 1943 and 1945, Bandera’s UPA led an ethnic cleansing operation that resulted in the deaths of up to 100,000 Poles, in what is known as the Volhynia massacre. Polish state authorities, including parliament, have recognised the killed as a genocide, though Ukraine has denied this.
 
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