Question for the pilots here

JRBids

Senior Member.
Friend keeps posting these photos claiming plane is at "maybe 12K feet"

Can anyone estimate how high it might be?

height1.jpg
 

Billzilla

Senior Member.
Good luck with that.
You might be able to if know knew the zoom on the lens and the wingspan on the aeroplane ..... but even that would have a large margin of error.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Thanks. I realize it's impossibly to eyeball, which is exactly my point with the poster. He always seems to pick the 12K number when he's posting a photo.
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
I've seen contrails as low as 24,000 feet, that's pushing it. I've been flying in the upper atmosphere for about 15 years.

Usually contrails start above 29k-30k. It's extremely variable.
 

Joe

Senior Member
Friend keeps posting these photos claiming plane is at "maybe 12K feet"

Can anyone estimate how high it might be?

View attachment 2196
Being I taken a lot of these types of photos as Im tracking them on Flightrader for alttitude I assume he has no zoom I would guess at least twice the altitude he stated . AT LEAST ! Thats if it a commercial airliner . Id agree with Justanairlinepilot 29000 . Tell him even a CT person says he is full of it .
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Friend keeps posting these photos claiming plane is at "maybe 12K feet"

Can anyone estimate how high it might be?

View attachment 2196
For the plane being at 12,000 ft, this photo has to be taken without zoom and not cropped (e.g., like a phone camera). Still, for the horizontal FOV of 55°, the angular dimensions of the plane appear less than 1° (my estimate is about 0.5°), so it would have to be a rather small plane:

12,000•2sin(0.5°/2)=105 ft (32 m)

PS Do you have a link to this photo? I'd like to see its EXIF data, if available.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The older 737-20's and -300's have a 93-95 foot wingspan, from the -600's on they get to 112-117 feet (with winglets).
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
He doesn't have flightradar24?
I don't know. After an hours long discussion, during which he called in a big gun (Russ Tanner), the thread was deleted (at Tanner's request) and I was de-friended. Probably also at Tanner's request, as Tanner said he was tagging me as a disinfo shill and said all my posts were to be deleted..
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
For the plane being at 12,000 ft, this photo has to be taken without zoom and not cropped (e.g., like a phone camera). Still, for the horizontal FOV of 55°, the angular dimensions of the plane appear less than 1° (my estimate is about 0.5°), so it would have to be a rather small plane:

12,000•2sin(0.5°/2)=105 ft (32 m)

PS Do you have a link to this photo? I'd like to see its EXIF data, if available.
Nah, he deleted the thread.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Who is Russ Tanner?
Chemtrail guru who thinks chemtrails are killing him and years of mercury fillings in his teeth has made him super sensitive to smell. He can smell those trails miles away. He only has a selective schnozz, though. When I told him I'd hate to be him passing a farm, he said it's only the metals they spray that he smells.

http://russtanner.com/

Here's his mercury story:
(Oh, did I mention he SELLS STUFF? He got really p-'d off when I mentioned that.)
http://herballure.com/HotTopics/MyMercuryStory.html
 

RolandD

Active Member
Chemtrail guru who thinks chemtrails are killing him and years of mercury fillings in his teeth has made him super sensitive to smell. He can smell those trails miles away. He only has a selective schnozz, though. When I told him I'd hate to be him passing a farm, he said it's only the metals they spray that he smells.

http://russtanner.com/

Here's his mercury story:
(Oh, did I mention he SELLS STUFF? He got really p-'d off when I mentioned that.)
http://herballure.com/HotTopics/MyMercuryStory.html

Wait, is it his fillings causing all his ailments or chemtrails?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Wait, is it his fillings causing all his ailments or chemtrails?
His problems are all of his own making. Ten thousand ther people live around Tanner and never get sick, he says he just barely survives from day to day, in "incredible" pain and suffering.

Russ Tanner claims that "contrails are so rare that most people will never see one in their lifetime, and if they do occur, they are at high altitudes that cannot be seen from the ground."

I kid you not. With leadership like that, no wonder these people get frustrated.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
His problems are all of his own making. Ten thousand ther people live around Tanner and never get sick, he says he just barely survives from day to day, in "incredible" pain and suffering.

Russ Tanner claims that "contrails are so rare that most people will never see one in their lifetime, and if they do occur, they are at high altitudes that cannot be seen from the ground."

I kid you not. With leadership like that, no wonder these people get frustrated.
Too much Coast-To-Coast A.M. methinks! Let 'em believe what they want. Use of logic and facts is strictly prohibited, besides, it won't change a thing. You can't reason with "true believers" of any stripe. EDIT: Just skimmed Mr. Tanner's website post. Amazing! He goes on for thousands of words and not ONCE that I saw does he present an actual, retail fact! He pulls charts and graphs right out of his tailpipe with no regard for anything except what he "THINKS." Heck, I THINK I'm gonna win the Powerball jackpot tomorrow but that doesn't make it so. Oh wait!!! I just tossed the IChing and it verified that "fact." Pardon me while I go out and put a deposit on that Ferrari California I've been lusting after.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Contrails usually don't form below FL 165 but just eyeballing, this dude has to be at FL 240 or above. No matter. Dispersed metals (assuming powder) would be pretty much invisible. As well, to have the effects that our tinfoil hat friends attribute to them they'd have to be sprayed above FL 560 and no aircraft that I know of, commercial or military, that has the load capacity for same is capable of cruising at that altitude......
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Lord help us all!!! Here is EVIDENCE of B-17s and their fighter escorts OBVIOUSLY dispersing Chemtrails! How far back does this odious plot go??? Can we even trust the Wright brothers?B17trails.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Lord help us all!!! Here is EVIDENCE of B-17s and their fighter escorts OBVIOUSLY dispersing Chemtrails! How far back does this odious plot go??? Can we even trust the Wright brothers?View attachment 2210
Some chemtrailers would claim one of:

A) The image is fake
B) The image show deliberate smoke trails used to cover the bomber
C) The image shows normal smoke from the engines
D) The image does not show persistence, just "normal" contrails
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Question to the pilots on Metabunk . . . why do you think people are obsessed about persistent contrails . . . ?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Question to the pilots on Metabunk . . . why do you think people are obsessed about persistent contrails . . . ?
They are not, they are obsessed with the chemtrail theory.

It's simply an easy theory for people to fall for, if they are conspiracy-minded. It's right there in the sky, plain to see. They don't remember noticing those trails before, so it's a super easy leap to "they are spraying us".

It's basically a viral theory, a meme. It survived because it's adapted to the environment. It continues to mutate to better fit into the changing environment (e.g. during the summer, when there were no contrails in California, a "no-trail" variant of the the theory started to reproduce and spread).

If you believe that the WTC was destroyed by a controlled demolition, why would you not believe in chemtrails? There's a huge vulnerable target population, and they all just got infected with chemtrails.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Question to the pilots on Metabunk . . . why do you think people are obsessed about persistent contrails . . . ?
Because they, as you, believe as your signature states. BTW your statement is incorrect, unless of course, to name at least one other thing that is "guaranteed," you personally believe that death is "optional."
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Some chemtrailers would claim one of:

A) The image is fake
B) The image show deliberate smoke trails used to cover the bomber
C) The image shows normal smoke from the engines
D) The image does not show persistence, just "normal" contrails
Wait Mick! I have the answer! I don't believe in Chemtrailers . . . . .
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Friend keeps posting these photos claiming plane is at "maybe 12K feet"

Can anyone estimate how high it might be?

View attachment 2196
With practice and a good pair of binoculars it is possible to guesstimate the height. When in the military we would use silhouette charts with different sizes of images that would represent the height. However by eye the accuracy was only at best to 5,000 ft, and that was if you were well trained and the plane at 30,000 or lower.

If you watch the Battle of Britain you get to see some of the basic kit the Observer Corp would use to estimate height. I find it miraculous some chemtrailers can do it by eye.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
With practice and a good pair of binoculars it is possible to guesstimate the height. When in the military we would use silhouette charts with different sizes of images that would represent the height. However by eye the accuracy was only at best to 5,000 ft, and that was if you were well trained and the plane at 30,000 or lower.

If you watch the Battle of Britain you get to see some of the basic kit the Observer Corp would use to estimate height. I find it miraculous some chemtrailers can do it by eye.
They're "trained observers" Dave. You don't believe me? Ask them!
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
With practice and a good pair of binoculars it is possible to guesstimate the height. When in the military we would use silhouette charts with different sizes of images that would represent the height. However by eye the accuracy was only at best to 5,000 ft, and that was if you were well trained and the plane at 30,000 or lower.

If you watch the Battle of Britain you get to see some of the basic kit the Observer Corp would use to estimate height. I find it miraculous some chemtrailers can do it by eye.
If you don't know exactly what type of plane it is, then you could be off by a factor of more than 2 (i.e. 15,000 feet vs. 30,000 feet).


And that's just when planes are directly overhead, you also need to account for angle.

Here's my CS articles relating to the subject

http://contrailscience.com/measuring-the-height-of-contrails/
http://contrailscience.com/how-far-away-is-that-contrail/
http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
 
Last edited:

David Fraser

Senior Member.
If you don't know exactly what type of plane it is, then you could be off by a factor of more than 2 (i.e. 15,000 feet vs. 30,000 feet).


And that's just when planes are directly overhead, you also need to account for angle.

Here's my CS articles relating to the subject

http://contrailscience.com/measuring-the-height-of-contrails/
http://contrailscience.com/how-far-away-is-that-contrail/
http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
We used to have silhouette books of all major aircraft. We used to even train with models of the aircraft. I did say it was a guesstimate. The best I was ever able to do using the method was ID a T74 tank at 3.5km away. That is on the ground btw, nit flying ;-)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
They are not, they are obsessed with the chemtrail theory.

It's simply an easy theory for people to fall for, if they are conspiracy-minded. It's right there in the sky, plain to see. They don't remember noticing those trails before, so it's a super easy leap to "they are spraying us".

It's basically a viral theory, a meme. It survived because it's adapted to the environment. It continues to mutate to better fit into the changing environment (e.g. during the summer, when there were no contrails in California, a "no-trail" variant of the the theory started to reproduce and spread).

If you believe that the WTC was destroyed by a controlled demolition, why would you not believe in chemtrails? There's a huge vulnerable target population, and they all just got infected with chemtrails.
Fair enough . . . my inquiry into the belief tends to push me toward the visual reinforcement of the obsession from the persistent contrails and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . once someone has seen them one cannot un-see them . . . without this reinforcement the concept would simply run out of steam . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Because they, as you, believe as your signature states. BTW your statement is incorrect, unless of course, to name at least one other thing that is "guaranteed," you personally believe that death is "optional."
One could also add Taxes . . . :) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional except for Death and Taxes . . . George B: or The only thing guaranteed in life is deception, Death and Taxes . . . everything else is optional . . . George B
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Fair enough . . . my inquiry into the belief tends to push me toward the visual reinforcement of the obsession from the persistent contrails and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . once someone has seen them one cannot un-see them . . . without this reinforcement the concept would simply run out of steam . . .
OK. If you saw ice crystals generated as contrails at high altitudes, with favorable winds / atmospheric conditions you'd agree that they could be disbursed thinly and "mutate" into a cirrus-like formation before disbursing? Here's a link to a website you might enjoy.
http://aviationweather.gov/products/nws/winds/ Couple it with reported "Chemtrail" sightings and see what you think.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
OK. If you saw ice crystals generated as contrails at high altitudes, with favorable winds / atmospheric conditions you'd agree that they could be disbursed thinly and "mutate" into a cirrus-like formation before disbursing? Here's a link to a website you might enjoy.
http://aviationweather.gov/products/nws/winds/ Couple it with reported "Chemtrail" sightings and see what you think.
I don't believe persistent contrails or contrail induced contrails are chemtrails . . . I am talking about what motivates Chemtrail Conspiracy Advocates . . . I think the existence of routine aviation exhausts as it is practiced presently reinforces the misconception or misidentification . . .
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
One could also add Taxes . . . :) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional except for Death and Taxes . . . George B: or The only thing guaranteed in life is deception, Death and Taxes . . . everything else is optional . . . George B
Monaco?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Fair enough . . . my inquiry into the belief tends to push me toward the visual reinforcement of the obsession from the persistent contrails and contrail induced cirrus clouds . . once someone has seen them one cannot un-see them . . . without this reinforcement the concept would simply run out of steam . . .
It's synchronicity. Like when you buy a certain car, all of a sudden you begin noticing how many are on the road.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Agreed. But "education" doesn't seem to be an option for those so motivated. . .
That is where the suggestions presented by the websites, YouTube, etc. would seem to be more important . . . however, my inquiry does not necessarily support that conclusion. . . .
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
For the record: Estimation of the plane altitude from a photograph.

The altitude (i.e., the distance between the camera and the plane, H) can be calculated from any of the plane known dimension (e.g., the wingspan width, D) and its angular width (α) by formula H = D/2sin(α/2). The angular width can be calculated from the the photograph's field of view and the ratio of the dimension of the image to the dimension of the photograph. The former can be determined for a given camera or calculated from the known focal length. Using long lenses or a big optical zoom will allow more accurate estimates.

DSCN4251.JPG


This picture has been taken using Nikon Coolpix P510 at the maximum optical zoom, the 35 mm equivalent focal length of which is 1,000 mm. This gives the horizontal angle of view of the photograph being about 2.1°. From the ratio of the width of the plane image (~435 px) to the width of the picture (4608 px), the angular width (α) of the plane wingspan is about 0.2°.

Zooming the image shows the plane probably being a Boeing 737-800 (of Norwegian Air Shuttle), the wingspan of which is about 115 ft. Thus the plane altitude estimated from these data is about 33,000 ft.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
When I click on the attachment, I get a good view of the plane type, and can see the number of numeral/digits on the wing, but not read them legibly.
Comparing the livery colors, I'd say you have a good ID of the 737-800's the airline flies:


norwegian.jpg

The wheel well circles of that plane mid-fuselage are fairly distinctive.

Good work.
 
Thread starter Related Articles Forum Replies Date
J A question about refraction Flat Earth 5
Stefan Leahu Question regarding distant lighthouses Flat Earth 31
TWCobra Very good question asked by Madison Star Moon Contrails and Chemtrails 27
TemplarJLS I have a question General Discussion 38
TWCobra A good (unintended) question from a chemtrail believer Contrails and Chemtrails 14
Qualiall Cockpit Flight Recorder question Flight MH370 12
derrick06 Random Question about Contrails/Aerodynamics Contrails and Chemtrails 4
Mick West MEP Robert Sturdy Tables Parliamentary Question on "Chemtrails" Contrails and Chemtrails 6
Lone Bison Contrail Question for Skeptics - What's the Effect of Contrails on Climate? Contrails and Chemtrails 233
Gary Cook 9/11 question about the support beams. General Discussion 19
Alchemist Outstanding Suspicious Backpack / Craft PMC question Boston Marathon Bombings 5
Mick West Brooks Agnew's Cloud Chamber HAARP Experiment on Joe Rogan's Question Everything HAARP 31
C Congressmanswife's question on chemtrails. Contrails and Chemtrails 10
Mick West Climate Scientist Alan Robock gets asked every chemtrail question in 11 minutes Contrails and Chemtrails 15
Mick West Cube in a Sphere UFO's Seen by Navy pilots. Radar Targets? UFO Videos and Reports from the US Navy 16
TWCobra Pilots for 9/11 Truth-"Simulations" video debunked. 9/11 26
Joe Kerr Debunked: Pilots Doctors and Scientists tell Truth about Chemtrails Contrails and Chemtrails 66
KC-10FE "Team Chemtrail" & Chemtrail Pilots Anonymous Satirical Facebook Group Contrails and Chemtrails 22
C 9/11 P4T FDR analysis of flight 77 9/11 26
M 9/11 flight Simulations: United 175 9/11 8
SpaceCowboy Pilots For 9/11 Truth Weigh in on Chemtrails Contrails and Chemtrails 132
TWCobra EasyJet 737 incident debunks Pilot for 9/11 truth V-G diagram video 9/11 325
TWCobra Debunked: Pilots for 9/11 truth WTC speeds 9/11 94
Tony Szamboti Pilots for 9/11 Truth claim WTC airplanes would be uncontrollable at observed speeds 9/11 242
Mick West G. Edward Griffin: Don't Blame the Pilots! Contrails and Chemtrails 52
FreiZeitGeist FB: Airline Pilots Who Believe that Chemtrails are Real Contrails and Chemtrails 28
lee h oswald 9/11: How hard is it to hit a building at 500mph? 9/11 930
Jay Reynolds Jet Pilots Fear "Chemtrail" Attacks Contrails and Chemtrails 129
TWCobra Debunked: Photo of pilots protesting chemtrails - it's Photoshopped Contrails and Chemtrails 3
Mick West Advocating violence against "Chemtrail" planes, pilots, scientists, and debunkers Contrails and Chemtrails 1762
Leifer Can the admins here, see our unposted ideas as we type them ? Site Feedback & News 8
Svartbjørn The Solar System.. To Scale (just for fun, nothing to debunk here) General Discussion 0
Trailspotter Here be dragons UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 4
R How much blood should there be here? Boston Marathon Bombings 7
qed How did I end up down here? Escaping The Rabbit Hole 14
Rusty Far Eye More information videos here. Contrails and Chemtrails 8
Eddie Explosions in WTC lobbies? [Was: Nothing to see here?] 9/11 57
MikeC Has Trolling Increased, here on Metabunk? Site Feedback & News 11
Alchemist Who's bunk here? FOX News Reporters or Monsanto? Conspiracy Theories 12
BlueCollarCritic AGENDA 21 - Not Here And Not A Concern, Right? Conspiracy Theories 5
Mick West Welcome Thread - New Members Post Here General Discussion 1945
Clock Here we go again... General Discussion 3
K New here. Contrails and Chemtrails 10
Jay Reynolds What is Carnicom Doing here? Health and Quackery 17
Pogopoint99 Ice Storm Geoengineered – Here is Your Proof! Contrails and Chemtrails 12
Related Articles













































Related Articles

Top