Parsing Trump: Sedition? Incitement?

econ41

Senior Member
Like the Raffensperger call, there's a lot of double-talk that is open to interpretation.....commensurable with Trump condoning the riot; whether that constitutes legal liability won't be decided by us, or by any newspaper correspondent. But it's certainly a reasonable opinion to have.
Those are central issues. Many of Trumps assertions are seditious in nature. BUT whether they meet the test of being a crime of sedition under US statute is a different matter. And most of the assertions are framed as double talk or innuendo. So whether they cross the threshold of crime would need to be assessed in a competent forum.
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
:) maybe its time for bed.
Yes. BLM was not calling for arson.
And you are engaging in WhatAboutism again.
What Trump does can not get better or worse by comparing him to BLM. It becomes no more or less justified.

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1265336600109735943

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1265586957054357504

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1266169768677126146

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1266484388491116550

"held accountable" "need convictions"
Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1266891211488591873

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1267876627834421249

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1268150228785475585

Source: https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1268629933439492098


Article:
Very few of those charged appear to be affiliated with highly organized extremist groups, and many are young suburban adults from the very neighborhoods Trump vows to protect from the violence in his reelection push to win support from the suburbs.

Even though most of the demonstrations have been peaceful, Trump has made “law and order” a major part of his reelection campaign, casting the protests as lawless and violent in mostly Democratic cities he says have done nothing to stymie the mayhem.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Yes. BLM was not calling for arson.
And you are engaging in WhatAboutism again.

not even remotely was i doing that. my post was about "what words do you use to stop people from rioting". my post had nothing at all to do with sedition or arson or defund the police or anything like that.
 

Mauro

Member
Those are central issues. Many of Trumps assertions are seditious in nature. BUT whether they meet the test of being a crime of sedition under US statute is a different matter. And most of the assertions are framed as double talk or innuendo. So whether they cross the threshold of crime would need to be assessed in a competent forum.

Double talk and innuendos.. just like a mafia boss
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhSdiwrLYIs

Mitt Romney was right: even in his latest message (which I quoted a few posts above), Trump reiterated "the facts bear me out" with regard to himself being the rightful winner.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Trump reiterated "the facts bear me out" with regard to himself being the rightful winner.

it's a shame there isnt a book or something that can teach us how to deal productively with conspiracy theorists. Its almost like the media and politicians WANT to push them to the point of hurting people. Although i guess it's it's possible that psychiatrists deal with delusional people by calling them crazy constantly and laughing at their concerns.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
it's a shame there isnt a book or something that can teach us how to deal productively with conspiracy theorists. Its almost like the media and politicians WANT to push them to the point of hurting people. Although i guess it's it's possible that psychiatrists deal with delusional people by calling them crazy constantly and laughing at their concerns.
You are saying that Trump is a victim, is that right?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
how did BLM word their tweets when they were trying to stop the riots that were happening at that moment?
Here's how Trump worded his:

That wasn't his tone yesterday.
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
pardon my french, but that is bullshit. that is not at all the tweet that we were discussing. and that you are trying to imply it was is disgusting.
That is a tweet Trump published in response to the protests in the summer, isn't it?
I don't see any reason why he couldn't have tweeted something similar to that yesterday. Just replace "Federal Courthouse in Portland" with "Congress building".

The message he actually sent yesterday?
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
I don't see any reason why he couldn't have tweeted something similar to that yesterday.
so.. you are saying that this tweet (post #53) was productive and helpful? i dont understand the spin you are going for here.

note: edit to change post # due to thread split
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
i dont understand the spin you are going for here.

hhmmm. i might get it. You might not realize:

Trump WANTED to stop the Capital riots, because they made him look bad.
Trump DID NOT want to stop the BLM riots, because they made Democrats look bad.

(of course, none of this has to do with the original conversation we were trying to have last night that you misunderstood because you were over tired)
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Trump WANTED to stop the Capital riots, because they made him look bad.
Trump DID NOT want to stop the BLM riots, because they made Democrats look bad.
Trump was fomenting division over the BLM protests (e.g. by lying about them, and portraying them as more violent than they were). He did that to curb popular support for BLM. (He also sent troops and black vans.)

Trump is lending his support to the terrorists who stormed Congress, not just to the protesters at his White House rally. He does that to amplify popular support for that movement. (And he held back the D.C. National Guard.)

Extremists and terrorists can't work without an environment of sympathizers. The more popular support they perceive as having, the bolder they get. Trump is probably the most influential person in the US right now, and what he decides to do with his support has meaning, and costs lives. I'm certain he realizes that.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Trump was fomenting division over the BLM protests

yes.

e.g. by lying about them, and portraying them as more violent than they were
eh. i acknowledge your opinion on that. i think his wording was pretty clear myself.

He did that to curb popular support for BLM.
i think he did that to increase his voting base. but potato, potato.

He also sent troops and black vans.
yes he sent troops to the federal courthouse.
i think the vans were white.

Trump is lending his support to the terrorists who stormed Congress, not just to the protesters at his White House rally
i disagree on this one.

And he held back the D.C. National Guard.)
i just posted news articles this morning for Leifer, how the NG was set up the day before the protest and riots. ABC and NBC news reporting.


Extremists and terrorists can't work without an environment of sympathizers
yea. men like their boys clubs.

The more popular support they perceive as having, the bolder they get.
100% agree.

Trump is probably the most influential person in the US right now
um. maybe sorta. i dont know about that.

and what he decides to do with his support has meaning
agree.

I'm certain he realizes that.
oh so now he's rational all of a sudden? i acknowledge your opinion on that but im pretty sure i disagree.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
i just posted news articles this morning for Leifer, how the NG was set up the day before the protest and riots. ABC and NBC news reporting.
Yes. That was for traffic control. Your quotes made that very clear.
They expected a huge crowd coming in, and scheduled the NG to help out with traffic control.

When it came to extending the mandate to cover the Congress riot, you can see from the tweets I posted that Congress took to asking the governors of Virginia and Maryland. I have heard claims that ultimately Mike Pence authorized the D.C. National Guard to help defend Congress.

Article:
The decision to mobilize the D.C. National Guard — by Secretary McCarthy and Christopher C. Miller, the acting defense secretary — came as a pro-Trump mob breached the Capitol earlier in the day.

Defense and administration officials said it was Vice President Mike Pence, not President Trump, who approved the order to deploy the D.C. National Guard. It was unclear why the president, who incited his supporters to storm the Capitol and who is still the commander in chief, did not give the order.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
If you are not doing "whataboutisms", then explain the Kamala Harris vid above.
i said i wasnt doing whataboutism about the BLM thing. reframing the topic of discussions is what conspiracy theorists do all the time, perhaps you should try to not behave similarly.

as far as whataboutisms in politics, i have no problem with whataboutisms because they help people see the flaws in their arguments. I know people on this site have problems with whataboutisms in politics, but that's your problem not mine.
 
P

PIH123

Guest
quote from me, "But if I ever do....."
(hint, it is about two lines below the bit you are quoting)

so what about Rudy Giuliani saying "So let's have trial by combat!" yesterday at the same rally, the president was at.
I don't recall the president say, "no, don't do that, we need to be peaceful"
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.

'Insurrection,' 'coup' and 'sedition.' Here's what each term means​


https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html


 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Maybe nobody did mention trial by combat "HERE".
Except in the post above one of yours which you happily ignore.
i did a search to see if i missed it, but noone posted about that on Metabunk. im glad you brought it up. Guiliani should be prosecuted for that.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here's Ashli Babbit, the woman who was shot, describing the scene shortly after listening to Trump.



She says nothing directly about the president inciting her actions, but it's pretty clear he's a major inspiration. The "3 million" number seems vastly overblown, I wonder if that was from his speech.

She later went into the Capitol and was fatally shot climbing through a window into the Speaker's Lobby. 2021-01-07_12-54-11.jpg
 

Sasquatch

New Member
The "3 million" number seems vastly overblown, I wonder if that was from his speech


I was looking for info into that and found this website that seems to have the entire speech transcribed with timestamps that links to the point in the video.



This is the first thing I saw in the speech where he recognizes size numbers:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Article:
In one of her final tweets, authored on January 5, she wrote: 'Nothing will stop us. They can try and try and try but the storm is here and it is descending upon DC in less than 24 hours….dark to light!'


the oncomign storm was a big talking point for Trump

Article:
Babbitt's husband told KUSI she was a 14-year veteran who served four tours with USAF in the Middle East as a 'high level security official,'
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
"The Storm" is QAnon mythology derived from a quip Trump made years ago. I don't think he's used the term recently.

i remember the quip, and i dont follow q anon at all. (not saying she wasnt a Q person, but just that the Oncoming Storm and Draining the Swamp is what his big mottos are to me....even if he hasnt used it recently.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.

'Insurrection,' 'coup' and 'sedition.' Here's what each term means​


Article:

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection​

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Article:
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

I'm not sure I see much of difference, except that §2384 requires a conspiracy, while it's enough to incite by yourself to be convicted for insurrection.
§2383 can be applied if you get caught in the act; for §2384 to apply, you don't need to have acted yet, it's enough to have conspired to do so. You can convict the conspirators for sedition even if the rebellion hasn't started yet.

I'd hesitate to call anything a coup that isn't associated with a change in power; but Trump already is the commander-in-chief, so it feels like the word wouldn't really apply before Joe Biden takes office.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Article:
One NATO source set the stage, using terms more commonly used to describe unrest in developing countries.

"The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said.

"The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police.


"The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle.

"I can't believe this happened."
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
A bipartisan group of more than two dozen lawyers, including a former top Trump administration official, has called for Trump to be removed from office.

 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
I watched most of this live before I switched over to the joint Congressional session. I invite everyone to watch at least 60 minutes of this and report your emotional impression. Why emotional? Because this is not an appeal to the intellect. This was meant to evoke an emotional tone. Get at least 60 minutes in, for two reasons:
-His manner of speech becomes more heated, as does the mood of the crowd.
-You'll get a feeling for the hypnotic quality of this extended experience.
[the audio starts at 33 seconds]


It took me some time to understand what the crowd was chanting at times:
"We love You. We love You."

At 37:40 it's, "Send it back."
 
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