"Occupy", and their discontents.

[Leifer]

...carried over from the Gasland thread here.
That thread was getting off-topic, so I started this one.

Here is a video to consider....anyone wish to see the problem(s) with this video ??

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[Leifer]

If you go to any of the "Occupy" sites and see what the supporters are posting, there is a lot of "woo" there.
Too bad.
But while I think there are some important messages/ideas to be explored, it seems there is a lot of woo-waddling and gov't/authority haters there who find this movement the perfect platform to stand upon.

 

[Mick West]

Indeed, you'll get the same bunch of people as you get at the G8 protests. Young anti-establishment types who are susceptible to woo and conspiracy theories.

What was the problem with the video? The situations were different because the Egyptians had a cohesive message? Egypt's protests led to regime change?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Egyptian_revolution

[TABLE="width: 303"]
[TR]
[TD]Causes of the Egyptian protests[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

• Police brutality[1]​
• State of emergency laws[1]​
• Electoral fraud
• Political censorship[2]​
• Widespread corruption[2]​
• High unemployment[3]​
• Food price inflation[3]​
• Low minimum wages[1]​[3]​
• Demographic structural factors[4]​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I don't think the video makes a fair comparison. But it does raise a point. Sure the police has to enforce the laws, and keep the streets clear for traffic, and try to ensure public safety and hygiene. But on the other hand a people should rise up using peaceful means to overthrow an oppressive dictator. Clearly the two situations that were juxtaposed were not the same. But they did have some similarities.

 

[Leifer]

It does raise a point....that free expression should be an intrinsic right.
That is what we already have here in America. In those other countries, for the most part, those rights were never allowed in the first place.
I think the Occupy movement increasingly sees police enforcement of the protest permit, as a sign that their message is being squashed, not the fact that they (police) are also enforcing the rights of the businesses and residents of the area.

 

[Mick West]

It's where you draw the line though. Different sides have different perceptions. Increasingly protestors are corralled by the police, and arrested if they go elsewhere. The police presumably do this for crowd-control purposes - but you could quite easily imagine they would be encouraged to do it by people who would prefer the protestors go away.

 

[Leifer]

Yes, I can see that.
I answered a protest thread, where they assumed the media would "put a bad spin" on the whole thing in an upcoming protest.
I asked them if it were not better to try for a "positive spin", to relay their message.

I think there is an underlying goal to create a bit of havoc, otherwise they feel it is not "a real protest" (again comparing their protests to the violence seen overseas).....despite what the organizers require, "peace and civility".

Correct me if I am mistaken...if organizers were to instruct civil disobedience, wouldn't that be illegal to do so ?

 

[Mick West]

By definition civil disobedience is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power. Civil disobedience is commonly, though not always,[1]​[2]​ defined as being nonviolent resistance.

But it's also something with a long history of being viewed (with hindsight) in a positive light. No doubt the current protestors equate themselves to those positive examples in the past.

 

[Leifer]

I also pointed out that a surrounding/clogging of Wall Street. leaves the NYPD in a difficult situation....a host of issues, including an outside terrorist event in-and-among the street chaos.

 

[Leifer]

But it's also something with a long history of being viewed (with hindsight) in a positive light. No doubt the current protestors equate themselves to those positive examples in the past.

MLK
Gandhi
Mandela

...all arrested for protesting.

 

[Mick West]

The arrests are an inevitable part of civil disobedience. They know there is a good chance they will get arrested. It's really part of the protest.

 

[Leifer]

But trying to convince them of that, that the police are not suddenly their enemy because they enforce order, is quite difficult.
They tangentially connect "arrests" with overall gov't suppression. Which leads to the snowball effect of police are now an enemy of sorts, sparking increased conflicts.

 

[Leifer]

An interview with the film maker of the video I posted at the top of this thread....

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(RT news seems to be rather slanted in their views of what to cover.....even more overtly than FOX news is slanted on what they cover.)

 

[Leifer]

David Icke has posted his opinions on the movement, and it's making the rounds in the Occupy movement....

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People like what he is saying, although many do not realize his whole story, or what he is all about. I try to point this out when I see him quoted or referenced.....
(click on images)


[Broken External Image]:[URL]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/Midiot/th_facebook_icke2.jpg[/URL]

Here is the rather ironic/contradictory Alex Jones video....
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[Jay Reynolds]

The arrests are an inevitable part of civil disobedience. They know there is a good chance they will get arrested. It's really part of the protest.

Yes, they are scripting the arrests in concert with the police like some 'reality show' parody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BARB-aSqYM