NYT: GIMBAL Video of U.S. Navy Jet Encounter with Unknown Object

Itsme

Active Member
I don't know about you, but I'm feeling increasingly tedious and nerdy discussing the details of the details of the details of a small video fragment of a UAP case we hardly know anything else about.

I did the best I can to explain my case. If people do not agree, that's fine. But I don't think a further discussion will lead to anything new at this moment.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
And what does this image tell exactly?
1626086929590.png

That specular reflected light bends back into itself?
No.
This is an overlay of three diagrams that show the strength of the signal as function of the angle, i.e. a function plot in polar coordinates.

In a common x/y diagram, you choose an x value and read off the corresponding y value; in these diagrams, you choose an angle and read off the corresponding value.

To dismiss knowledge and contributions you do not understand is an ineffective way to learn and an annoying way to have a conversation.
 

Cassi O

Active Member
I think the major problem with the `rotating glare caused by rotating window' hypothesis lies in the ATFLIR optics.

The ATFLIR optics is basically an extreme telephoto lens, constructed with mirrors instead of lenses. The first mirror (12 in the picture) is the entrance area of the lens:
1625737446228.png
(picture was taken from one of the Raytheon patents)

Not Glare or Diffraction caused by an obstruction, it's Coma.​

"The dominant off-axis aberration in the Newtonian is coma; astigmatism is low in comparison."

1626347340569.png

source: https://www.telescope-optics.net/newtonian_off_axis_aberrations.htm

I don't think coma is an issue for larger closer objects normally viewed by the targeting pod, but would be apparent for a planet with parallel rays of light. I thought of this after seeing the Raytheon patents image above, and my analysis of the targets line of bearing here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/gi...lines-of-bearing-and-or-dcs.11836/post-253580
 
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Itsme

Active Member

Not Glare or Diffraction caused by an obstruction, it's Coma.​

"The dominant off-axis aberration in the Newtonian is coma; astigmatism is low in comparison."

1626347340569.png

source: https://www.telescope-optics.net/newtonian_off_axis_aberrations.htm

I don't think coma is an issue for larger closer objects normally viewed by the targeting pod, but would be apparent for a planet with parallel rays of light. I thought of this after seeing the Raytheon patents image above, and my analysis of the targets line of bearing here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/gi...lines-of-bearing-and-or-dcs.11836/post-253580
That's an interesting claim. But any optical aberration caused by an imperfect entrance mirror shape is independent of light intensity and therefore should equally distort the whole image area, and this image-filling distortion would NOT rotate with the gimbal because of the de-rotation device that compensates any rotation of the image caused by the rotating Gimbal. The idea of the glare hypothesis is that a glare can rotate independent from the image.
 
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Cassi O

Active Member
That's an interesting claim. But any optical aberration caused by an imperfect entrance mirror shape is independent of light intensity and therefore should equally distort the whole image area, and this image-filling distortion would NOT rotate with the gimbal because of the de-rotation device that compensates any rotation of the image caused by the rotating Gimbal. The idea of the glare hypothesis is that a glare can rotate independent from the image.

The coma aberration is caused by the off-axis design, not the shape of the mirror.

With astronomical telescope coma is most noticeable for individual bright stars towards the outer edge of the FoV.
 
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Ravi

Active Member
Not true @Cassi O .

A Three Mirror Anastigmat design is specifically used and designed to prevent spherical aberrations like astigmatism and also coma. Not saying it is completely free of aberrations (mis-alignment of the optics will introduce massive amount of aberration), but highly unlikely.

Here is a good read-up.
 

Itsme

Active Member
The coma aberration is caused by the off-axis design, not the shape of the mirror.

With astronomical telescope coma is most noticeable for individual bright stars towards the outer edge of the FoV.
Ah, I see. I thought the red and blue curved lines at the mirror (see picture below, from one of your links) were supposed to depict an ideal and a distorted mirror. What they show is that an off-axis object that is not right in front of the mirror will cause some deformation of its reflected light wave fronts purely due to physics, so even in an ATFLIR that is designed perfectly without any flaws.

I don't think this plays a role in the gimbal video, because:
1. The ATFLIR will focus on the object it is tracking, so I would expect this object to NOT be off axis.
2. If an ATFLIR would show this kind of distortion by design, every jet or other bright object in its image would look like a UFO. That seems highly unlikely to me.

Have you checked the order of magnitude of this distortion we could expect in an ATFLIR? I bet it's so small it can be neglected.

Screenshot_2021-07-15-16-21-57-634~2.jpeg
 

Cassi O

Active Member
Not true @Cassi O .

A Three Mirror Anastigmat design is specifically used and designed to prevent spherical aberrations like astigmatism and also coma. Not saying it is completely free of aberrations (mis-alignment of the optics will introduce massive amount of aberration), but highly unlikely.

Here is a good read-up.
Your wiki article does not talk about an off-axis mirror. It makes sense that the targeting system would use an off-axis design to eliminate the central obstruction (and potential blind spot for small close targets).
 
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Cassi O

Active Member
Ah, I see. I thought the red and blue curved lines at the mirror (see picture below, from one of your links) were supposed to depict an ideal and a distorted mirror. What they show is that an off-axis object that is not right in front of the mirror will cause some deformation of its reflected light wave fronts purely due to physics, so even in an ATFLIR that is designed perfectly without any flaws.

I don't think this plays a role in the gimbal video, because:
1. The ATFLIR will focus on the object it is tracking, so I would expect this object to NOT be off axis.
2. If an ATFLIR would show this kind of distortion by design, every jet or other bright object in its image would look like a UFO. That seems highly unlikely to me.

Have you checked the order of magnitude of this distortion we could expect in an ATFLIR? I bet it's so small it can be neglected.

Screenshot_2021-07-15-16-21-57-634~2.jpeg

Since the mirror configuration is tilted to eliminate the central obstruction, any light entering it will be off-axis, that's the nature of the design.
 
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Ravi

Active Member
Your wiki article does not talk about an off-axis mirror. It makes sense that the targeting system would use an off-axis design to eliminate the central obstruction (and potential blind spot for small close targets).

The system used in the ATFLIR pod is a TMA. I explained why it is called an anastigmat, namely it has per definition NO aberrations.. You claim "because it is off axis, therefore we see aberrations", this is false.
 

Cassi O

Active Member
The system used in the ATFLIR pod is a TMA. I explained why it is called an anastigmat, namely it has per definition NO aberrations.. You claim "because it is off axis, therefore we see aberrations", this is false.
Got it, the ATFLIR was designed as an Off-axis three-mirror anastigmat.

Still, it was designed for viewing relatively close targets, and may perform differently if pointed at a bright planet, which is more of a point source rather than an extended light source.
 

Ravi

Active Member
Got it, the ATFLIR was designed as an Off-axis three-mirror anastigmat.

Still, it was designed for viewing relatively close targets, and may perform differently if pointed at a bright planet, which is more of a point source rather than an extended light source.
Still, no aberration should be visible. If there is one thing that optical engineers hate, it is aberrations. So, you can count on it that the ATFLIR is designed properly. If there is any aberration left in there, it is smaller than the camera can resolve.

Also, the telescope (TMA) is not the only optical element needed to create an image, you need an objective system too (likely also mirror based). So the optics can be pretty complex (meaning that the image in post 804 is not the full optics, just generalised).
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
So I did some digging around and found something to fill in a gap I had with the full symbology of what the ATFLIR was showing.

At around 2 seconds into the gimbal video the text ADV-M4 OK appears on the FLIR display above the speed indicators

1628342079944.png

What does this mean I did some digging into the manual ADV is an advisory and M4 related to Mode 4 for the IFF system

Page 538 of

https://www.metabunk.org/attachment...nnell-douglas-fighter-a1-f18ac-nfm-pdf.44932/

Says

"If the transponder is replying to valid mode 4 interrogations, the M4 OK advisory is displayed on the left DDI."

"The option 4 selection is used for enabling/ disabling the secure mode"

So I think this either means the transponder was on and in secure mode or was actively responding, it's hard to tell.
 
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