[MoreInfoNeeded]Germany NewsTV: Explanation for radar cloud

Donnn

New Member
Hi,

I ve been into the chemtrail stuff lately, and trying to get into the discussions with several different people I know personally.

There is one particular thing that I find hard to explain. When a cloud was spotted on radar and brought up by a newsTV show in Germany, it gave the explanation: "This has nothing to do with weather". Later they explained that this was chaff, used by the military. I am a long time military sim fan, so I have some basic background knowledge about this stuff.

Now what puzzles me is the discrepancy of the mass of chaff a fighter jet drops versus the size of the cloud on the radar.

A chaff pod drops small fibers that cover a very local area, like several square meters, and is dropped in advance of an expected missile impact on target.

However, the radar screen of the clouds in question shows clouds that cover several hundred miles of territory. An area so large, not even a squadron of fighter jets would cover.

Is there any info you can give me on this particular incidence or are there any more rational explanations out there?


Here is a video of the incident:



Thanks
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A chaff pod drops small fibers that cover a very local area, like several square meters, and is dropped in advance of an expected missile impact on target.

That's just the use of chaff as a "penetration aid".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_aid

  • chaff: Chaff wires may be deployed over a large area of space, creating a large, radar-reflecting object that will obscure incoming warheads from defensive radar.
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(and even that sounds like more than "several square meters"_


Chaff can be used to cover very large areas with hundreds of pounds of fibers:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/230/226441.pdf
Motors feed chaff from rolls of about 40 pounds through cutters carried on some aircraft to produce either bursts or a continuous stream. The continuous stream technique, called saturation chaff, may be used by aircraft to cover a large area. By 2005 or 2006, the Army also planned to use saturation chaff to mask vehicle and troop movements. Using a cutter, 360 pounds of chaff from nine 40-pound rolls can be deployed in 10 minutes. Depending on the method and the number of aircraft, such releases could disperse billions of fibers. The B-52 can carry about 750 seven-ounce boxes of chaff; each box contains up to 11 million fibers that can be expelled continuously or in bursts.
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10 minutes of flight in a b-52 at 400 mph would leave a 66 mile long streak, and would spread out quite a bit.
 
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Donnn

New Member
Follow up problem: What puzzles me still is that the video says that the german army claims to only have used very small amounts of chaff in that exercise, but the weather guys say it needs tons of that material to create that big of a radar cloud.

I guess that part of the puzzle is just beyond any further possible investigation from our side though.
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
"Tons" can be a figurative term, particularly if you've got different units to measure. For example, from Mick's post, chaff on the B-52 comes in 7 ounce packages (that's a small amount), each of which contains 11 million fibers (that's a large amount). It could also have been used more widely or densely than normal for whatever reasons, or multiple times during the day as it dispersed, both of which could also qualify as a large amount while still only involving a few pounds of material spread over many miles.
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
Follow up problem: What puzzles me still is that the video says that the german army claims to only have used very small amounts of chaff in that exercise, but the weather guys say it needs tons of that material to create that big of a radar cloud.

As far as I remember a great NATO-Exercise in the Northern sea caused this.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The German chaff news story has been debated all over the 'net - I'm surprised Mick didn't provide this link - http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/ ;)
:) i just stumbled on that myself.

so this guy (according to geoengineering watch)
After studying business administration at the University of Hagen (Diploma in Business Administration, 2001) as well as the history, politics and economics (Master’s degree, 2004) In 2007 Brandt earned a PhD in Climatology at the University of Duisburg-Essen
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is a "climatologist" after MAYBE 3 years of study and Mick is debunking this less then a year later?

How do you learn ALL that about weather/meteorology AND 'climatology' (thats a big field no?) in 3 years?

This Brandt is either a genius or....
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
:) i just stumbled on that myself.

so this guy (according to geoengineering watch)
After studying business administration at the University of Hagen (Diploma in Business Administration, 2001) as well as the history, politics and economics (Master’s degree, 2004) In 2007 Brandt earned a PhD in Climatology at the University of Duisburg-Essen
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is a "climatologist" after MAYBE 3 years of study and Mick is debunking this less then a year later?

How do you learn ALL that about weather/meteorology AND 'climatology' (thats a big field no?) in 3 years?

This Brandt is either a genius or....


There was a "parliament question" to the german Gouvernment. Here is the answer: dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/16/121/1612178.pdf It claims Aircrafts in netherlands terretorium as source of the chaff

Some german meteorlogists got in clash after this event. Mr. Brand was on of them :) He is meteorologist, not a military expert
 

Donnn

New Member
"Tons" can be a figurative term, particularly if you've got different units to measure. For example, from Mick's post, chaff on the B-52 comes in 7 ounce packages (that's a small amount), each of which contains 11 million fibers (that's a large amount). It could also have been used more widely or densely than normal for whatever reasons, or multiple times during the day as it dispersed, both of which could also qualify as a large amount while still only involving a few pounds of material spread over many miles.


Well, the amount required to create that cloud is very huge, independent of wording used, so the cloud still is in contradiction to the military saying they used "very few amounts" (german quote).
I think this part will also never be investigated properly.
And to be honest: I never trust the military with their explanations. History is full of military reports that do not accurately portray what had really happened. That is the nature of military secrecy. After all, you are not even allowed to take picture near the wrong places.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well, the amount required to create that cloud is very huge
Can you quantify that? How big is the cloud, and how much area does a typical amount of chaff cover? I'm pretty sure a little can go a long way.
History is full of military reports that do not accurately portray what had really happened.
Such as?

Do you think the cloud is something other than chaff, or just perhaps the spokesman was being coy when he said it was a small amount?
Maybe it was a small amount compared to larger amounts they've released at other times, so he was being truthful according to what he knows as someone in the military who's seen military exercises; as opposed to the weatherman who probably doesn't have as much experience in that field.
But as chaff is known to be capable of causing that phenomenon there's no real reason to be suspect anything else was going on (other than just mistrust as a general principle).
 
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Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Well, the amount required to create that cloud is very huge, independent of wording used, so the cloud still is in contradiction to the military saying they used "very few amounts" (german quote).

There is a great difference between the amount of chaff needed to make a cloud visible by eye and by radar. A few pounds of specially designed material can produce a similar effect on a radar screen as tons of water droplets and/or ice crystals in an ordinary cloud of similar size. However, the optical density of such chaff cloud would be negligible to be visible by eye.
 

JFDee

Senior Member.
From the official answer to the parliamentary question that FreiZeitGeist has linked to:
Seit 1998 wurden mit Genehmigung des BMVg vier Kampagnen, zuletzt im Februar 2008, zum Ausbringen von Düppel im Rahmen von Erprobungen bzw. Wirksamkeitsuntersuchungen an Selbstschutzsystemen fliegender Plattformen über dem Übungsgebiet „POLYGONE“ durchgeführt, das in der Region Saarland - Westpfalz liegt. Die im Februar 2008 ausgebrachte Menge Düppel betrug ca. 200 kg. Darüber hinaus wurde die Nutzung von Düppel im Rahmen der jährlich stattfindenden 14-tägigen internationalen Übung „ELITE“ über dem Truppenübungsplatz Heuberg für die teilnehmenden Nationen genehmigt. In den Jahren 2004 bis 2008 wurden hierbei jeweils Gesamtmengen von 1 700 bis 2 500 kg pro Übung ausgebracht.
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Translation:
Since 1998, with the approval of the Federal Ministry of Defence, four campaigns of spreading chaff were conducted, most recently in February 2008, in the context of trials and effectiveness studies for self-protection systems of flying platforms over the exercise area "POLYGONE", located in the region Saarland - West Palatinate. The amount of chaff expelled in February 2008 was about 200 kg. In addition, the use of chaff was approved for the participating nations during the annual 14-day international exercises "ELITE" on the military training area Heuberg. In the years from 2004 to 2008 totals of 1700-2500 kg per exercise were applied.
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So it's not unusual to have larger amounts released in the course of exercises. "Very small amounts" in a military statement doesn't say anything as long as no absolute measures or relations are given.

By the way, the fighter jets seen in the program have no direct relevance to the issue; the images are likely just stock material from the archive (which is not required to being indicated in Germany).

As described in the contrailscience.com article, the english translation of the program is pretty bogus (I'm German, and I can confirm this).
Also, the context of the original program should be kept in mind - a tabloid-oriented TV station and a "climatologist" who is well-versed in marketing and founder of a startup, an ad-loaded weather website which is faithfully mentioned in the program. See http://www.donnerwetter.de/intern/menu.htm
 
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skephu

Senior Member.
There is a great difference between the amount of chaff needed to make a cloud visible by eye and by radar. A few pounds of specially designed material can produce a similar effect on a radar screen as tons of water droplets and/or ice crystals in an ordinary cloud of similar size. However, the optical density of such chaff cloud would be negligible to be visible by eye.
Clouds cannot be detected by weather radars. They only show precipitation.
 
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