Leaked: Drone Kill List: Authority to kill American citizens has no geographic limit

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Does this 'technically' include, or is it a precursor to, drone attacks on U.S soil?

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/kill_list_exposed_leaked_obama_memo

Related?

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-drone-regulation-20130205,0,7365434.story

 

jvnk08

Active Member
Read the whitepaper yourself: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

The first sentence says "in a foreign country". Is it a precursor to killing American citizens on American soil? I'm not sure. AFAIK that is already possible and legal if they are deemed enemy combatants(that's not simply a label given to undesirables, its backed by intelligence research into the person). More realistically I think they would first pursue arrest.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Read the whitepaper yourself: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

The first sentence says "in a foreign country". Is it a precursor to killing American citizens on American soil?
Thanks. I think it refers in the main to Drone usage as killing of terrorists by conventional armed forces is pretty much established in Afghanistan/Iraq anyway and the CIA assassin squads are now out in the open...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-man-who-ran-a-cia-assassination-unit/259856/

It appears to widen the scope geographically and there are already reports of Drones in Mali etc.

Obama appears to be pushing the envelope on this quite rapidly... massive increases in Drone strikes and general usage... not very much concern for 'collateral damage'... dead innocents who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not sure. AFAIK that is already possible and legal if they are deemed enemy combatants(that's not simply a label given to undesirables, its backed by intelligence research into the person). More realistically I think they would first pursue arrest.
Was interesting to note they already had the 'baby drones' with tazers in the U.S . I think 'enemy combatants' covers a large remit but we will see
 

jvnk08

Active Member
Thanks. I think it refers in the main to Drone usage as killing of terrorists by conventional armed forces is pretty much established in Afghanistan/Iraq anyway and the CIA assassin squads are now out in the open...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-man-who-ran-a-cia-assassination-unit/259856/

It appears to widen the scope geographically and there are already reports of Drones in Mali etc.
Why do you think those are US drones...?

OxyMoron said:
Obama appears to be pushing the envelope on this quite rapidly... massive increases in Drone strikes and general usage... not very much concern for 'collateral damage'... dead innocents who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Where do you get the impression they are increasing in frequency? They happen every few days at most frequent. It's terrible that innocent people are being killed, but it's important to keep perspective here: the collateral damage is actually a lot less than conventional warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

OxyMoron said:
Was interesting to note they already had the 'baby drones' with tazers in the U.S . I think 'enemy combatants' covers a large remit but we will see
Frankly I don't get the hysteria around drones. Why don't folks learn how to build their own, and in the process learn their limitations if you're so afraid of what they can do. If a small UAV can hit a moving target with a tazer, I'll be surprised.
 

SR1419

Senior Member
Obama appears to be pushing the envelope on this quite rapidly... massive increases in Drone strikes and general usage... not very much concern for 'collateral damage'... dead innocents who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"Massive increases" ? Hyperbole?


Actually, drone strikes in Pakistan have been decreasing for the last few years- They peaked in 2010 with 117, 64 in 2011, 46 last year and 8 so far this year

http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php

Drone strikes in Yemen have increased- from 2 in 2010, to 10 in 2011 to 42 last year:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/Yemen/code/Yemen-strike.php

The use of drones actually is the best tool for limiting "collateral damage" as potential targets can be watched over hours to verify to a greater degree and to allow time to strike when the risk for civilian casualties is minimal or non-existent.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
"Massive increases" ?
Yes

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...idency-obamas-300th-drone-strike-in-pakistan/
Hyperbole?
No

Actually, drone strikes in Pakistan have been decreasing for the last few years- They peaked in 2010 with 117, 64 in 2011, 46 last year and 8 so far this year
Do you run a PR agency?

http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php

Drone strikes in Yemen have increased- from 2 in 2010, to 10 in 2011 to 42 last year:
Massive increase?... Yes. Hyperbole?... No.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/Yemen/code/Yemen-strike.php

The use of drones actually is the best tool for limiting "collateral damage" as potential targets can be watched over hours to verify to a greater degree and to allow time to strike when the risk for civilian casualties is minimal or non-existent.
Hyperbole?... Yes. Outright misrepresentation of facts?... Yes.

Apparently it is not merely me being hypersensitive or alarmist or practicing hyperbole...

http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/287964.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...rorising-civilians-in-pakistan_n_1909167.html

Seems one of us have our facts wrong... I wonder who? Perhaps more to the point... Why?
 
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SR1419

Senior Member
There are more drone strikes under Obama than Bush - that is true...part of the reason is a shift from traditional air strikes (planes) to drones...part of it is a deliberate campaign. But they have decreased substantially over the last few years in Pakistan



http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/Yemen/code/Yemen-strike.php

Hyperbole?... Yes. Outright misrepresentation of facts?... Yes.

Seems one of us have our facts wrong... I wonder who? Perhaps more to the point... Why?[/B]
No- stating that Drones have the potential to limit civilian casualties more that any other air-delivery method is not hyperbole or a misrepresentation of facts. Try again.

In 10 strikes in Yemen in 2010- 0 civilian casualties, 5 strikes so far this year- 0 casualties.

In Pakistan- since 2010 1541 "enemies" killed versus 59 unintentional civilian deaths.

-
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
There are more drone strikes under Obama than Bush - that is true...part of the reason is a shift from traditional air strikes (planes) to drones...part of it is a deliberate campaign. But they have decreased substantially over the last few years in Pakistan





No- stating that Drones have the potential to limit civilian casualties more that any other air-delivery method is not hyperbole or a misrepresentation of facts. Try again.

In 10 strikes in Yemen in 2010- 0 civilian casualties, 5 strikes so far this year- 0 casualties.

In Pakistan- since 2010 1541 "enemies" killed versus 59 unintentional civilian deaths.

-
http://dawn.com/2012/12/19/no-obama-tears-for-children-killed-by-drones-in-pakistan/

Sandy Hook:

Pakistan... and wherever: "Bug Splats"

"Who will avenge the blood of these Pakistanis?"


U.S certainly knows how to create 'terrorists'... Never ending war? Was that a plan?
 

SR1419

Senior Member
Never ending war? same as it ever was.

It definitely sucks when innocent people die...and war is miserable.

But using drones is the best option for limiting civilian casualties if you are going to attack.

...as opposed to...say...a suicide bomber.
 

jvnk08

Active Member
Yes


http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...idency-obamas-300th-drone-strike-in-pakistan/
No


Do you run a PR agency?


http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php


Massive increase?... Yes. Hyperbole?... No.

The quoted statistic defeats your own point.


Comparatively it is a "massive increase". You need to understand how the exponential function works though. In doing so, you'll see these drone strikes are still fairly rarely used.


Oxymoron said:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/Yemen/code/Yemen-strike.php
SR1419 said:
The use of drones actually is the best tool for limiting "collateral damage" as potential targets can be watched over hours to verify to a greater degree and to allow time to strike when the risk for civilian casualties is minimal or non-existent.
Hyperbole?... Yes. Outright misrepresentation of facts?... Yes.

I don't think you understand how devastating conventional munitions are in comparison. Additionally, the Taliban do a better job of killing civilians than the US ever will.


Oxymoron said:


Apparently it is not merely me being hypersensitive or alarmist or practicing hyperbole...


http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/287964.html


 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
The quoted statistic defeats your own point.
Seriously... you think I do not understand that Obama has drastically increased the amount of strikes and flying times of Predator drones in relation to Bush.


Comparatively it is a "massive increase". You need to understand how the exponential function works though. In doing so, you'll see these drone strikes are still fairly rarely used.
Fairly rarely used... They are used in Pakistan because Pakistan will not allow foreign troops on their soil, (despite the seal team incursion) and the U.S can't just stand back and watch so they brokered a deal to fly drones as Pakistan President 'Doesn't really care about collateral damage'.

I don't think you understand how devastating conventional munitions are in comparison. Additionally, the Taliban do a better job of killing civilians than the US ever will.
I am perfectly aware of the damage conventional munitions do. The fact is, the U.S and U.N have no right being there at all... Israel has no right stealing land from Syria or Lebanon... The whole lot are banksters fraudsters criminals who could not care less about the people. Land grab, money grab and power grab... thats it.

They don't even care about U.S citizens... so why on earth would they care about anyone else.


Yes, Iranian state media isn't biased at all.

The drone strikes are certainly setting an ungainly precedent, but they is a lot of sensationalism around them.
Well even the U.N think they are pretty sensational and are looking into them... but then I suppose they must be biased?

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...jor-investigation-into-civilian-drone-deaths/

And this is just Pakistan...and U.S is not even at war with them!
 

truthbearer

New Member
I've been searching the Web on polls on this - just to see who are for or against the use of drones. I saw one on eQuibbly though: http://www.equibbly.com/disputes/using-drone-strikes-to-assassinate-u-s-citizens

What strikes me is this line taken from their debate: "If they're an enemy of the U.S. by virtue of having declared war on the U.S. and demonstrated by their words and actions that they are a serious threat, they should no longer be considered American citizens in the eyes of the law. They should be taken out by any means possible to protect the truly innocent."

So, it's like saying that anyone who is a suspected terrorist can be killed.. but will this really solve the problem, or harbor more anti-American sentiments? Does the end justify the means?

Technology is not the question. The very issue here is ethics because we're talking about taking lives, human life for that matter.
 
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