Jeffery Epstein's Death

Agent K

Senior Member
The other problem is that the plea deal actually has a lot of legal baggage attached to it that would have had to have been settled in court and that may not have turned out in Mr. Epstein's favor.

Acosta's sweetheart deal also has conspiracy theories attached, since Acosta told the Trump transition team that he was told that "Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epsteins-sick-story-played-out-for-years-in-plain-sight
Acosta had explained, breezily, apparently, that back in the day he’d had just one meeting on the Epstein case. He’d cut the non-prosecution deal with one of Epstein’s attorneys because he had “been told” to back off, that Epstein was above his pay grade. “I was told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone,” he told his interviewers in the Trump transition, who evidently thought that was a sufficient answer and went ahead and hired Acosta.
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When he was asked about it, Acosta responded with a non-denial denial.

"It Sure Looks Like Jeffrey Epstein Was a Spy—But Whose?"
https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligence-work/
The intelligence issue came up, and Acosta’s response was bizarre. He punted on setting the record straight, instead proffering this strange word salad when asked about Ward’s reporting:
So there has been reporting to that effect and let me say, there’s been reporting to a lot of effects in this case, not just now but over the years and, again, I would hesitant to take this reporting as fact. This was a case that was brought by our office, it was brought based on the facts and I look at the reporting and others, I can’t address it directly because of our guidelines, but I can tell you that a lot of reporting is going down rabbit holes.
To anyone acquainted with our nation’s capital, that’s a non-denial denial of an epic kind. Given the chance to refute Ward’s report, specifically that the Epstein case involved intelligence matters, Acosta did nothing of the sort. Indeed, he functionally admitted that it’s true...
It seems awfully coincidental that Epstein’s best pal and business partner for decades has been Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite and daughter of the late Robert Maxwell, the media mogul who died under mysterious circumstances in 1991. Something of a Bond villain turned real life, Maxwell loved the limelight, despite being a swindler and a spy. British counterintelligence assessed that Maxwell was working for the KGB, while pervasive allegations that he was working for Mossad too are equally plausible...
What’s not in doubt is that a sex trafficking ring centered on minors, which involved numerous global VIPs in compromising situations, would be of high interest to quite a few intelligence services.
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"Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell 'boasted of collecting compromising material on the rich and famous'"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...aine-maxwell-boasted-collecting-compromising/
Jeffrey Epstein boasted about having compromising material on “an astonishing number” of rich and famous people, it has been claimed, while his British confidante Ghislaine Maxwell reportedly told friends that she and Epstein were videotaping everyone who visited Epstein’s private island in the Caribbean.
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Joe_the_Joe

New Member
To clarify on legal baggage, from the blog of Solomon L. Wisenberg, regarding the indictment unsealed on July 8:

Under the NPA's terms, "on the authority of R. Alexander Acosta, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, prosecution in this District for these offenses shall be deferred in favor of prosecution by the State of Florida, provided that Epstein abides by the following conditions and the requirements of this agreement as set forth below." (Emphasis added.) If the United States Attorney determines that Epstein has violated the NPA, the United States Attorney may notify Epstein of the violation and "shall initiate its prosecution." But, if Epstein timely fulfills all of the NPA's obligations, "no prosecution for the offenses set out on pages 1 and 2 of this Agreement, nor any other offenses that have been the subject of the joint investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the United States Attorney's Office, nor any offenses that arose from the Federal Grand Jury investigation will be instituted in this District, and the charges against Epstein, if any, will be dismissed." (Emphasis added.) It is undisputed that Epstein fulfilled all of his obligations under the NPA. The NPA does NOT include a standard provision near the signature block explicitly affirming that the agreement binds only the SDFL.

About a week after Epstein's state guilty plea, one of his victims, Jane Doe, filed a federal civil action seeking enforcement of the federal Crime Victim's Rights Act ("CVRA"). She claimed that SDFL had failed to confer with her as required by CVRA. Neither Jane Doe nor any of Epstein's other victims were aware that an NPA had been entered into that would free Epstein from having to face federal charges, at least in SDFL. In fact, it is clear from her pleading that Jane Doe thought federal plea negotiations were still under way when she filed. Jane Doe's case continues to wind its way through U.S. District Judge Kenneth Marra's court, and new plaintiffs, including Jane Doe 2, have been added. On February 21, 2019, Judge Marra held that SDFL violated the CVRA by hiding the NPA and its terms from Epstein's victims. Judge Marra also held that the CVRA authorizes the rescission of an NPA reached in violation of a prosecutor's conferral obligations. SDFL prosecutors maintained, as recently as June 24, that judge Marra had no authority to force them to reopen Epstein's case.
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You can be certain that Epstein will move quickly to dismiss the new charges as a violation of the NPA and the Double Jeopardy Clause of the U.S. Constitution. What are some of the key issues likely to be litigated?

  1. Was the CVRA really violated? Does it even apply to non-prosecution agreements, or does it require a federal court filing by the prosecutors?
  2. If the CVRA was violated, does the violation affect the NPA provisions that benefitted Epstein?
  3. Is the NPA really unambiguous as to where it applies? If the NPA is ambiguous, have Epstein's due process rights been violated by the SDNY prosecution?
  4. Does the Double Jeopardy Clause even come into play here? Epstein only pled to state charges and the doctrine of Dual Sovereignty would appear to control. Does the joint federal-state nature of the NPA bring the Double Jeopardy Clause back into play? In other words, is the federal action here brigaded with state action for purposes of Double Jeopardy Clause analysis? Could an exception to Gamble be carved out? If jeopardy only attaches after a court accepts a guilty plea, how would that work here where there was no federal plea? Would jeopardy attach when the state court accepted the plea or when Epstein fulfilled the terms of the plea, thereby fulfilling the NPA's terms?
  5. Regarding potential remedies to a CVRA violation, is it fair to punish Epstein for the government's transgression? Is it relevant that Epstein's attorneys were keenly aware of the CVRA's provisions and vigorously tried to minimize the government's disclosures of the NPA to the victims? Isn't it the defense attorney's duty to aggressively defend his/her client to the full extent allowed by law and ethical rules?
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https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/whitecollarcrime_blog/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-materials.html
 

Agent K

Senior Member
Epstein was a federal informant and a "key federal witness."
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
The Herald learned that, as part of the plea deal, Epstein provided what the government called “valuable consideration” for unspecified information he supplied to federal investigators. While the documents obtained by the Herald don’t detail what the information was, Epstein’s sex crime case happened just as the country’s subprime mortgage market collapsed, ushering in the 2008 global financial crisis.
Records show that Epstein was a key federal witness in the criminal prosecution of two prominent executives with Bear Stearns, the global investment brokerage that failed in 2008, who were accused of corporate securities fraud. Epstein was one of the largest investors in the hedge fund managed by the executives, who were later acquitted. It is not known what role, if any, the case played in Epstein’s plea negotiations.
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Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
I suppose Epstein could have lied to the lawyers so that he might then be able to finish himself off later...or did he genuinely think he would win on double jeopardy?

Jeffrey Epstein was confident he could fight the child sex trafficking charges against him and was in “great spirits” just hours before his jailhouse death on Saturday morning — even telling one of his lawyers, “I’ll see you Sunday,” The Post has learned.

The convicted pedophile also told his lawyers that the neck injuries he suffered in an earlier incident at the Metropolitan Correctional Center were inflicted by his hulking, ex-cop cellmate, which led the lawyers to request that he be taken off a suicide watch, according to a source familiar with Epstein’s case.

...

“He thought he was going to win the double-jeopardy motion” that his defense lawyers were planning to file in connection with his 2008 Florida prostitution conviction, the source said.
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https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/jeffrey-epsteins-last-words-to-lawyer-before-his-jailhouse-death/
 

Joe_the_Joe

New Member
The problem with trying to speculate as to his mental state without supporting evidence is that being suicidal isn't usually a long-term emotional state, generally being spontaneous instead. Failed suicide attempts tend to be embarrassing for the victim. Depression itself is notorious for being hidden behind a mask of optimism. However, the recent source cited certainly does not help the notion that he committed suicide at the very least, even if for the aforementioned reasons it does not necessarily help any other theories.
 

igoddard

Active Member
Hot off the press, first insights into the autopsy:
An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.
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Comments by an expert:
People familiar with the autopsy, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive stage of the investigation, said Sampson’s office is seeking additional information on Epstein’s condition in the hours before his death. That could include video evidence of the jail hallways, which may establish whether anyone entered Epstein’s cell during the night he died; results of a toxicology screening to determine if there was any unusual substance in his body; and interviews with guards and inmates who were near his cell.

Jonathan L. Arden, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, said a hyoid can be broken in many circumstances, but is more commonly associated with homicidal strangulation than suicidal hanging.

Arden, who was not involved in the Epstein autopsy, said that in general, a finding of a broken hyoid requires pathologists to conduct more extensive investigation. That investigation can include analysis of the location of the noose, how narrow the noose is, and if the body experienced any substantial drop in the course of the hanging.

The age of the deceased is also important, Arden said. The hyoid starts out as three small bones with joint-like connections but hardens during middle age into a u-shape that can break more easily.

“If, hypothetically, the hyoid bone is broken, that would generally raise questions about strangulation, but it is not definitive and does not exclude suicidal hanging,” he said.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...9ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

The hyoid bone...
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
Sampson’s office is seeking additional information on Epstein’s condition in the hours before his death. That could include video evidence of the jail hallways, which may establish whether anyone entered Epstein’s cell during the night he died; results of a toxicology screening to determine if there was any unusual substance in his body; and interviews with guards and inmates who were near his cell.
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Is it common for a medical examiner to hold off the results of an autopsy based on something that is not strictly forensic pathology?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Is it common for a medical examiner to hold off the results of an autopsy based on something that is not strictly forensic pathology?

they determine homicide or suicide. I just grabbed the first link off Google, so you can look for better sources


The Cause of Death is something that is found by autopsy; an infection, cancer or injury that is responsible for the death. In cases where a final cause could not be found, your Medical Examiner/Coroner may write his understanding in the best way possible: sudden unexplained death of a 2 year old child (cause), undetermined (manner). In terms of describing the Manner of Death (or how the death occurred) the Medical Examiner/Coroner has 5 options for coding purposes: Natural, Homicide, Suicide, Accidental and Undetermined
….
By reviewing the evidence and the actual cause of death as well as the circumstances, Medical Examiners/Coroners decide what that manner type should be

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https://sudc.org/family-services/member-services-access/bereavementseries/topic3
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Yes. I speculate that they were panicking as they realized the magnitude of the situation.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/...ghlights-a-staffing-crisis-in-federal-prisons
Of the two guards assigned to monitor Epstein’s cell area, one was not a full time correctional officer but a substitute, The New York Times reported. The Times also reported the two guards fell asleep and falsified records to try to cover up their mistake. Both guards were working overtime—one for four or more days...

...the hiring freeze, and the retirement of many prison employees who entered during a hiring boom in the 1990s, diminished staff to a point where prison teachers, nurses and chaplains continue to be asked regularly to fill in on guard duties—a so-called “augmentation” ...
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/politics/jeffrey-epstein-substitute-guard-overtime/index.html
...one of the two employees on duty at the time was not part of the regular detention workforce but was filling in as a guard... The person's regular position is not publicly known.
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I previously speculated that they began CPR on an obviously dead body.
 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To analyze the frequency of hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage fractures caused by suicidal hanging in Thai people and compare the different methods of visualizing the those fractures. Results could be used for forensic purposes.

MATERIAL AND METHOD:
A prospective study of hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage fractures in Thai people who died from suicidal hanging between November 2008 and August 2009. The authors confirmed suicides, based on history, crime scene investigation, autopsy reports, and other police information, visual and palpatory examination, and stereomicroscopy with or without 1% Toluidine. Neck dissection was performed following the protocol of Prinsloo and Gordon. Results and data analysis were performed via SPSS version 16.

RESULTS:
Twenty male cases of suicidal hanging were reviewed. Fractures of the hyoid bone and/or thyroid cartilage were found in five cases (25%). Two cases ofthe hyoid bone fracture, two cases of thyroid cartilage fracture, and one case was both bone fractures. Mean age of all cases, non-fracture, and fracture cases were 42.40, 35.93, and 61.80 years, respectively The knot was at the back of the neck in most cases (12 cases, 60%) and at the left, front, and right in four, two, and two cases, respectively. However there was no relation between location ofthe knot at the neck and fractures of hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage (p=1). Incomplete and complete hanging were found in 11 and nine cases. Five cases with fractures of the hyoid bone and/or thyroid cartilage were incomplete hanging. The visual and palpatory examination did not detect the fracture of hyoid bone in all 20 cases but stereomicroscopy and stereomicroscopy with Toluidine blue stain detected fracture in three cases. For detecting thyroid cartilage fractures, all three methods had the same result.

CONCLUSION:
Fractures of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage in 25% of Thais who died of suicidal hanging were related with older ages and incomplete hanging but not related with location of the knot. The stereomicroscopic method is fast and effective in detecting fractures of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage.
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Not that rare, especially in older people.

The media is taking this one factor and running with it. But there are other factors. E.g. the condition of the back of the neck. Trauma to the back of the neck indicates someone was strangling the victim - i.e. pressure from the ligature is pretty even all around the neck. Hanging is more consistent with less trauma on the back of the neck. I'm sure there are other factors.
 
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Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
No shortage of broken hyoid studies.

One hundred eighty-nine cases of known dead bodies brought for medicolegal autopsy with alleged history of hanging...Fracture of hyoid bone at their greater horns was seen in 2.7% and thyroid cartilage in 5.3% of cases
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22922547

This prospective study aimed at examining various injuries to the neck structures in deaths due to constriction of neck. Of the 1746 medico-legal autopsies, conducted during the study period...Hanging (69%)...The hyoid bone was fractured in 21% cases
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18511004

Seven hundred sixty one hanging cases of suicidal origin were detected and evaluated...Fractures in neck organs were detected in 446 of cases. In fracture-determined cases, fracture in hyoid bone was seen in 177
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17720591

analyzed the occurrence of laryngohyoid fractures in a group of 178 suicidal hanging victims...combined thyrohyoid fractures in 41 cases (23.0%), isolated fracture(s) to the hyoid bone in 28 cases (15.7%)
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282

asphyxial deaths by hanging...prospective study of 61 cases...hyoid bone and/or thyroid cartilage fractures (found in 26% of cases)...No hyoid bone/thyroid cartilage fractures, internal soft tissue injury, or petechiae were present in 13 (21%) of the study cases
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3840836

1930 cases...classical manual or ligature 'pressure to the neck', i.e. hanging (32)...In 78 of 1930 cases (4%), there was a fracture of the larynx (thyroid or cricoid cartilage) or hyoid bone. The thyroid cartilage alone was fractured in 38 cases; the hyoid bone alone was fractured in 19 cases; the larynx and hyoid bone were both fractured in 21 cases
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793475

study of 61 cases...Hyoid bone and/or thyroid cartilage fractures (found in 26% of cases) are most frequently identified in those persons found completely suspended and in victims in the older age ranges. No hyoid bone/thyroid cartilage fractures, internal soft tissue injury, or petechiae were present in 13 (21%) of the study cases
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3840836



"Laryngohyoid fractures in hanging victims are one of the most studied and paradoxically contradictory topics in forensic pathology"
 
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Agent K

Senior Member
https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides

Suicides and attempted suicides among inmates have been rare occurrences at the New York federal detention center where alleged sex offender Jeffrey Epstein apparently killed himself.

Published reports tally only one suicide and three attempted suicides in the past 40 years at the Manhattan Correctional Center, which came under fire after Epstein's death early Saturday.
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Kind of puts things in perspective. Sounds like they were not used to dealing with suicidal inmates on a regular basis.

Sounds like they were very good at preventing suicides and suicide attempts, which are much more frequent in other prisons.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Feb., 2018

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-j...-and-nurses-to-work-as-federal-prison-guards/
For more than a decade, the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) has run on what it describes as “mission critical” staffing—the minimum number of correctional employees necessary to safely run the 98 facilities it operates. Yet over the past year, federal prisons have dipped far below those numbers, employees say, because the agency has largely stopped filling vacant positions after staffers retire or leave.

“This is the worst I’ve ever seen it,” says Joe Rojas, who has worked for about two decades in the education department at the Coleman Federal Correctional Complex in Florida, the BOP’s largest correctional complex. Now president of his local union, he recalls periods of low staffing in the past but says there’s no comparison. “That was bad, but not like this.”

“It’s not safe,” adds Ray Coleman, the union president at the Tallahassee prison, who says teachers, nurses, and other staffers feel unprepared to fill in as guards. “We’re overwhelmed,” Morgan says.

At FCC Lompoc in California, nurses are exempt from guard duty. But Valerie Limon, vice president of the local union, estimates the medical department only has 75 percent of the employees it’s authorized to have. The Lompoc complex—which includes a low-security prison, a high-security prison, and two correctional camps—is down from three staff psychologists to one, and its two reentry coordinators are sometimes asked to work as guards. “Morale is in the toilet,” Limon says.
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July, 2018

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/federal-prison-bureau-trump_n_5b2bf738e4b00295f15a990a

Workers at the Bureau of Prisons say it is just a matter of time before the belt-tightening turns deadly.


A hiring freeze imposed by the administration at the start of Trump’s term has left BOP severely short-staffed...

... many facilities operate on a skeleton crew, BOP employees say. Health workers, secretaries and teachers at the facilities report regularly being pressed into guard duty. And it’s just a matter of time until the crisis will start claiming lives, said Kristan Morgan, a nurse practitioner at a low-security facility in Tallahassee, Florida, at a recent news conference.

″My reality is that it’s not if but when. When will the inmates realize that they outnumber a nurse working as a novice officer 150-to-1? When will I have to call for assistance from the depleted ranks that exist due to hiring freezes and budget cuts? How many will come? How long will it take?” Morgan asked.

“The morale is pathetic within the federal Bureau of Prisons,” Juhasz added. “There’s a breaking point right now, and we’re at that point where the bough breaks. You can’t push any group of people that hard, that fast and for that long and expect them to maintain their composure.”

...the national president of the American Federation of Government Employees’ Council of Prison Locals, now prays before he looks at his phone every morning, worried he’ll receive a message from BOP’s director notifying him of a staff death.
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This continued mystified cries of, "How could this happen"? ... or "What's wrong with this prison"?...
This is bordering on the disingenuous.
 
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igoddard

Active Member
Someone tried to unpixelate them?

Edit: And the New York Post logo is covering up the second tray of food on the seat.
Yes, and there are two phones, two cups, two meals. Kinda like two people.

But the NY Post's story was:
Once spotted, Maxwell — who was sitting alone with a pet pooch — told an onlooker: “Well, I guess this is the last time I’ll be eating here!”
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And why would she bother to tell a paparazzi the title of the book she was reading? That sounds utterly contrived. And the book is on murdered CIA agents. That has a pranky smell, imo, like a conspiracy-theory joke.

Note also that all the contents on the table are markedly shifted around from one to the next photo, indicating passage of time and much ado. As well note the different patrons in the surrounding tables from one to the next photo. So presumably this paparazzi was hovering over her for like 45 minutes. And she didn't call the police? A simple explanation seems to be that the "paparazzi" was actually the second person for the second phone, cup and meal.
 
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Svein E.

New Member
The most obvious explanation is that Epstein killed himself because he was looking at spending the rest of his life in jail as a child sex offender. This leads to a "let it happen" conspiracy theory, where someone arranged for him to not be on suicide watch, knowing he'd tried to kill himself before.

This is very high profile, and will attract a lot of attention. Expect the theories to grow in complexity in the coming months.
I disagree. He still had a chance with hoping for some help. I don't think he would kill himself before the final verdict, and was placed in prison, knowing he probably never getting out as a free man.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/468071-pathologist-epstein-body-shows-signs-of-homicide
A forensic pathologist [Michael Baden] hired by Jeffrey Epstein's brother to look into his suicide said on Wednesday that the convicted sex offender's body showed a number of signs of homicide, contradicting a medical examiner ruling that Epstein's death was a suicide.
...
“I think the evidence points to a homicide rather than a suicide,” he said.
“Because there are three fractures in the hyoid bone, the thyroid cartilage that are very unusual for suicide and more indicative of strangulation — homicidal strangulation,” Baden added.
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Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.
 
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180out

New Member
Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.

The questions below are sincere questions:

Common in men of Epstein’s age and circumstances? An old, convicted hebephile who found himself yet again facing prosecution and conviction for sex crimes with minors and human trafficking; a flesh peddler who had a little black book containing the phone numbers of powerful people with the financial wherewithal and connections to have him snuffed out in a prison where El Chapo was under video surveillance, but evidently not Epstein himself? The same Jeffery Epstein whose lawyer argued that he was attacked by his cell mate Nicholas Tartaglione, a former New York police officer who was arrested in December 2016 on charges of killing four men—one of them by putting a zip tie around one victim’s throat, choking him to death—in a cocaine distribution conspiracy, who was sharing a cell with Epstein in Manhattan’s Metropolitan Correctional Center at the time Epstein was found semiconscious in the fetal position with marks on his neck on July 23, 2019 which led to him being hospitalized temporarily? That’s why he was not on suicide watch.

Jeffery Epstein's former cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione requests move from MCC, alleging threats from prison guards. (August 21, 2019)
In a letter to the court, Tartaglione's attorney alleged that correction officers know his client has information "potentially very damaging" to the staff at MCC.

He wrote that guards at the facility have told him to "shut up," "stop talking" and "stop complaining."

"The clear message Mr. Tartaglione has received is that if he conveys information about the facility or about the recent suicide, there will be a price to pay," his attorney, Bruce Barket, wrote the judge. "The continuing and seemingly unresolvable problems with the conditions of Mr. Tartaglione's confinement coupled with the unfortunate attempted suicide by a cellmate, to which Mr. Tartaglione is a critical witness, and the successful suicide of that same person makes his continued detention at the MCC inappropriate."
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This also seems like it is meant to stir the pot, as you say.

With regards to injuries found after being found dead on his knees after sounds were heard coming from his cell, I wonder whether they were from the previous incident on July 23, 2019. Can you break the hyoid and live? Can it be fractured and you be functional after a short hospitalization? If so, could those details have been omitted from the medical record that would have been produced due to a stay in the infirmary? (Now I have “St. James Infirmary Blues” stuck in my head—Epstein’s island was Little Saint James)

Here’s some thoughts regarding kneeling/hanging:
  • This is actually a common method of suicide. When kneeling, it takes very little pressure by the ligature to cause loss of consciousness, the weight of the head being the main force followed by the weight of the body. At this point, the person can do nothing to help themselves even if they wanted to. There soon develops coma and this method of hanging is regarded as painless and somehow more acceptable than typical hanging because death is caused by interrupted blood flow not asphyxia by compression of the airway.
  • When people are weighing up the possibility of hanging themselves, wondering about it, they might put a rope in place and test themselves against it. If they do this, it is in fact very easy by putting pressure on the carotid sinuses that are in the side of the neck to slip out of consciousness and falling forward to end up asphyxiated. If you have begun with your feet on the ground you can end up kneeling or close to kneeling.
The second thought makes me wonder if Epstein could have just messed up. I personally messed up while testing things before making a go at hanging myself with a length of small diameter braided cable—no drop, just slipped, leaving my toes inches above my patio. A friend just happened by looking for me, and I slipped trying to get the cable off of my neck and hide what I was planning. He came around to the backyard after I didn’t answer the door. I probably was dangling/dancing a few seconds before he realized what he was seeing and he bear hugged me, lifting me up so I could remove the cable.

I was a teenager on antidepressant (AD) meds that, when I became a legal adult and was able to stop taking them, were found to increase suicidal thoughts in teens, resulting in an increased risk of suicidal behavior; in bipolar patients, ADs taken alone can cause antidepressant-induced mania, psychosis, and other disturbing problems (e.g., akathisia, akathisia-induced impulsivity, suicidal/homicidal thoughts) … The majority of antidepressants appear ineffective in treating bipolar depression. Withdrawl from psychiatric meds can be painful and lengthy; even with extremely slow tapering, some patients will develop some symptoms or will be unable to completely discontinue the drug.

Considering that atypical antipsychotics (AP) are commonly given to prisoners for any reason at all, when they kick in when you start the kneeling/hanging process, you'd be unable to save yourself even while realizing that you might be making a mistake, wishing to stop what you started. You could also lose balance and fall forward with enough force to fracture the hyoid. You could still groan in agony, or a range of other noises, but you wouldn’t be able to do anything other than that.
  1. Could that account for the shrieking heard coming from Epstein’s cell prior to being found dead on his knees with a sheet wrapped around his neck?
  2. Did the post-mortem state whether there were any substances such as AD/AP meds in his system?
  3. Is it known whether he was taking any AD/AP meds prior to his arrest, and if so, did he stop taking them as a result, or maybe start taking them?

 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.
it may stir the pot because you left out key information. Namely, Baden did not do his own autopsy or any of his own investigation. according to the Fox interview (quoted and linked in your link). he only attended the NYC medical examiners autopsy,

:35 "i was asked by the brother to be at the autopsy, and at the autopsy on day one there were findings that were unusual for suicidal hanging
and more consistent with ligature homicidal strangulation"
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which was also confirmed back in August
“The ME’s determination is pending further information at this time. At the request of those representing the decedent, and with the awareness of the federal prosecutor, I allowed a private pathologist (Dr. Michael Baden) to observe the autopsy examination. This is routine practice.”
https://nypost.com/2019/08/15/epstein-autopsy-determined-he-had-several-broken-neck-bones-report/
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and around 3 mins in to the Fox interview, he talks more about how she couldn't come to a conclusion based on the autopsy and she needed more information. A week later she declared it a suicide but they haven't released the information she used to declare it a suicide. That seems to be the brother's main (and legitimate) beef and that's why he is speaking out on the brother's behalf.

2:28 well they took fingernail clippings to see if he fought back, and that hasnt been released and neither has the information about the dna that was on the ligerature!
Content from External Source
Source: https://video.foxnews.com/v/6099044550001/#sp=show-clips


basically this is not new news. Epstein's brother wants information released as to the suicide decision, as well it should be.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
it may stir the pot because you left out key information.
I think it will stir the pot because people will not bother to look into the details here. Baden points to the broken hyoid bones as his evidence favoring a homicide but, as has been discussed here, this is not evidence of a homicide. This is a conspiracy that usually non-conspiracy minded people are ready to believe and this story has already made a big splash despite it having no substance.
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
From the summary of the autopsy report, photos of fractures suffered by Epstein:


Fracture on hyoid bone:

fracture-epstein-1.jpg


Two fractures on the left and right sides of the thyroid:

left-right-epstein-1.jpg

Source
 

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Agent K

Senior Member
"Surveillance video of Jeffrey Epstein’s cell during (first) suicide attempt was destroyed: prosecutors"
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-yor...0200109-3pyok6bj7vac3gnt77hp5fsmom-story.html
Surveillance footage from outside Jeffrey Epstein’s cell during his suicide attempt was destroyed, prosecutors revealed Thursday...
Now, the feds say that due to a record-keeping error, MCC staff preserved footage from outside the wrong cell...
Even worse, there was a backup system for the video footage, but that wasn’t working, either...
Tartaglione’s attorney Bruce Barket had asked MCC to preserve the video days after the incident.
Content from External Source
 

Gary Cook

Active Member
I'm not defending the man, but Epstein isn't technically a pedophile.

Based on their reported ages, "he had probably brought him 70 to 80 girls who were all 14 and 15 years old.”

That put's him in the ephebophile range.

I don't know. What's worse a pedophile or ephebophile?



The New York Post claims he was "found unresponsive in his cell in the Special Housing Unit of Manhattan Correctional Center".

I assumed the SHU meant solitary confinement, but I guess not.

U.S. Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Prisons Special Housing Units

"Special Housing Units (SHUs) are housing units in Bureau institutions where inmates are securely separated from the general inmate population, and may be housed either alone or with other inmates."
Some of the victims claim other victims where literal kids as young as 8 or even younger. Apparently he told one victim he was abusing a bunch of 8yo triplets. We have to discern whether we are going to use just official records or claims from the public including victims I suppose. I talk to some of the victims and they are adamant other girls (and boys) were younger than teens.

I have some views on whether he killed himself or not but not really much I can add because of the (understandable) rules of the forum. IE, would partly be speculation.

Hopefully this doesn't get me banned again. :)
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
2 Separate people, so why do they have the same ID number?
Which ones Epstein, the one on the left or the right?
they are both epstein. one the front the other is his back. the photos (not cropped so much) are all over mainstream publications. google epstein autopsy photos.
 

CaptainCourgette

Active Member
OK thanks, so whats the cause of the different skin colors between the 2 views?
Maybe its perfectly normal, blood pools to the back from lying down?

This photo is from a site purporting to show that the bruise is in the wrong place, but from googling a few hangings, epstein's mark placement seemed quite normal

edit - hmm from looking more maybe not
https://applications.emro.who.int/i..._Q/Professional_Med_J_Q_2015_22_6_798_803.pdf page 3 Level of ligature mark
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._corelation_with_recent_concepts_and_theories page 25

Though still possible but less likely

later edit: Wait! I just noticed the guy that they show the hanging ligature marks on is black, Oh man ...
 
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Patricio

New Member
I agree with your 'Occam's Razor' caliber deduction, he committed suicide. It's logical. But, on the other hand, it makes for great conspiracy fodder; he knew too much. But, then if that were true then why is Ghilaine still alive? Suicide is the most plausible reason.

But one thing bothers me, and that is how does one hang oneself while sitting down? Or is that how he died?
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
But one thing bothers me, and that is how does one hang oneself while sitting down? Or is that how he died?
those people who engage in sexual asphyxiation, i think often kneel then lean forward. they call it autoerotic death.
 

Steve Six

New Member
Three weeks before his death, on July 23, Epstein had been found semiconscious in his cell with marks on his neck — though it was not clear if he had tried to harm himself or had been attacked. Prison officials investigated the injury as a possible suicide attempt and put Epstein on suicide watch, which would entail being placed in a special cell where he could be constantly monitored by prison personnel and prevented from having access to any means by which he could take his own life. Epstein was also subject to a daily psychiatric evaluation during this time, according to a source who spoke with the New York Times.

But for reasons still unknown as of Saturday afternoon, Epstein was taken off of suicide watch on July 29 and returned to the MCC’s special housing unit, according to the Times. Typically, that should have only happened if the prison’s chief psychologist approved the change after evaluating the inmate and justifying why they are no longer at risk of harming themselves.
Content from External Source
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-dies-by-suicide-report.html

I think it's reasonable to assume that there are limited or severely limited resources - the special cell - compared to need. It follows that there are many cases in which a prisoner should be on suicide watch but is not. There must be an official, or unofficial but commonly followed, protocol for deciding who is put on the top of the list and who drops off the list. A type of triage. If Epstein were not getting special treatment it's reasonable to assume that he was one of these prisoners who should have been on suicide watch but was not, because there was someone who was even more at risk.

The most boring explanation is that Epstein was not given special status. According to my Boring World Hypothesis - the world is boring therefore the most boring explanation is most likely to be true - this is the most likely explanation. Therefore the prison officials are not guilty of CYA - giving the most important prisoner special treatment. It bit them.

There may have well have been a prisoner more at risk, who according to the CYA rule should have been bumped because he was a less important person. If that less important person had committed suicide the world would never know.
"Boring World Hypothesis"... I'm using that. I am in full agreement. My personal take on reality is "there is less to this world than meets the eye".
 
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