Isis/Osiris consipracy, sexual and occult symbology in art, crucifixion scenes

Mick West

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I've not idea what point you are making with your Vietnam reference.

What's the scientific stuff?
 

Oxymoron

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I've not idea what point you are making with your Vietnam reference.

What's the scientific stuff?

The point I am making with Vietnam, is there are different ways which people interpret facts which then fall into different schools of thought i.e. some say Vietnam was justified, others say it wasn't; some say the wars in the M.E are justified, others say it isn't... some say the government theory that a guy in a cave told around 16 people to attack America with passenger planes, others see the same facts leading to a different theory that the U.S Government was involved in a false flag operation... it is different sides of the argument. It is a fallacy to suggest that people who believe the latter are in some way unpatriotic.

I don't know what scientific stuff you are referring to.
 

Oxymoron

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Well I am amazed. I explained that the Babylonian Priests were fundamentally scientists. They have a long history of mathematics and tracking the planets and being able to predict things from that. Factual things like eclipses and equinoxes etc, which make them powerful people of the time.

They used the knowledge in symbolic/allegorical terms and created a religion for the uneducated but which they themselves understood. The Priests knew the reality, the peasants had the symbolism

 

Oxymoron

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Was there any science besides astrology?

They were extremely enlightened/scientific/educated for the time. They were the cradle of civilization.

Wikipedia touches on it, barely scratching the surface really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia#Astronomy

 

Oxymoron

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Pythagoras spent 22 years studying in Babylonia. He did it for a reason. The Babylonians had secrets and understanding way beyond the Greeks and Romans

Even CNN acknowledge it. Well I suppose they have to be right sometimes

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/12/17/old.babylonian.math/index.html

 

Mick West

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Alex Jones eh? :)

Mathematics and science had to start somewhere. There was plenty going on in China and Egypt at that time too.

I'm really not seeing this big science based secret society there, especially one that supposedly lasted 5,000 years.

I think the focus of your theory is vastly too narrow, even though it's deep. There's plenty of other religions, science, and civilizations have have influenced history.

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/ser...5~3001080:The-Histomap--Four-Thousand-Years-O


And what did exist back then (science-wise) was really quite simple.
 
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Oxymoron

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Alex Jones eh? :)

Mathematics and science had to start somewhere. There was plenty going on in China and Egypt at that time too.

I'm really not seeing this big science based secret society there, especially one that supposedly lasted 5,000 years.

I think the focus of your theory is vastly too narrow, even though it's deep. There's plenty of other religions, science, and civilizations have have influenced history.

And what did exist back then (science-wise) was really quite simple.

Alex Jones eh?... I don't understand.

Anyway, Babylonian knowledge was the basis of the other civilisations you mention. Naturally they had their own learned peoples, Magi, Priests whatever you wish to call them.

Pythagoras spent 22 years trying to understand Babylonian BS, (spread around the region) and then returned with knowledge that made him famous and revered among his contemporaries and even to date?

http://9waysmysteryschool.tripod.com/sacredsoundtools/id13.html

Pythagoras of Samos (560BC - 480BC)

He was a Greek philosopher who was responsible for important developments in the history of mathematics, astronomy, and the theory of music. He founded the Pythagorean Brotherhood and formulated principles that influenced the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle. The influence of Pythagoras is so widespread, and coupled with the fact that no writings of Pythagoras exist today, this short article will attempt to guide the reader through the life of this most remarkable teacher.

The Bible is based on Babylonian teachings, directly and indirectly through the Egyptians.

Moses was brought up in the Pharaoh's palace.

http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishbiographies/a/moses.htm

Moses, the son of Amram and Jochebed (Yocheved) of the tribes of Levi, was born in the period of the greatest Egyptian oppression - the second half of the 13th century B.C.E. when Ramses II was Pharaoh of Egypt.

To save him from the Pharaoh's decree to kill all Hebrew male babies, Moses' mother put him in a basket which she sent floating on the Nile river. The baby were found by the Pharaoh's daughter, and thus Moses was raised in Pharaoh's palace.

Moses wrote the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

According to religious tradition, all of the teachings found in the Torah, both written and oral, were given by God to Moses, some of them at Mount Sinai and others at the Tabernacle, and all the teachings were written down by Moses, which resulted in the Torah we have today. According to a Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation.[4]

If I wrote 'Moses got his information from the vast libraries of the Pharaoh's', in many places I would be pounced on and corrected with... 'No he got the Word from God', but I expect better here.

The Egyptians got much of their knowledge from the Babylonians, ergo Judaism drives from Babylon Mystery Schools.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Jews had much to learn from the rich, cosmopolitan culture of Mesopotamia. Here they witnessed trade, commerce and religion on an imperial scale. In Babylon the Great, walled ‘City of Wisdom’, there were numerous gods and no fewer than fifty five temples. Here was to be found a vast literature of religious texts, in particular the great epic of creation, the story of Gilgamesh. Here too were legends of the origin of kingship and moralistic fables.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In Babylon, the Jews learned of prayer, dream interpretation, astrology, almanacs, and omens. For the first time, they encountered the notion of a personal ‘immortality’ and the fantasy of ‘resurrecting’ the dead. Impressed by the high culture of their hosts, the Jews adopted the lunar calendar of the Babylonians, and, like them, began their year in the spring. In the Babylonian setting the Jews met in ‘gatherings’ (‘synagogues’ in Greek) for the first time. Leadership of these assemblies assumed a ‘priestly’ character. One such leader, Ezekiel, kept the clan together by stressing the role in the community of this Yahweh priesthood and how the ‘glory’ of their god, even without an Ark or temple, was there with them in Babylon. Thus Yahweh floated free of confinement to ‘sacred space’.[/FONT]
If anyone is interested, I recommend the PDF documents, obtainable by free download, (Thank you very much to the guys, (including Microsoft), who make this possible)

Manly P Hall "Secret Teachings of All Ages"

Robinson "Dungeon, Fire and Sword, The Knights Templar"

Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma"
 

Mick West

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It seems like this myth just plucks one possible thread out of history, picking the thread that fits the narrative, and says that's what happened.

There's much larger degree of uncertainty to history than you suggest. Take your tale of Pythagoras:

Pythagoras spent 22 years trying to understand Babylonian BS, (spread around the region) and then returned with knowledge that made him famous and revered among his contemporaries and even to date?


That interpretation does not even fit the link you gave to support it:

Even that's rather specific, and not at all provable by known facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

You seem to be interpreting EVERYTHING through the lens of "The Babylonians Started Everything, and everything is based on Babylon", and then simply writing a history that agrees with that statement.
 

Oxymoron

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It seems like this myth just plucks one possible thread out of history, picking the thread that fits the narrative, and says that's what happened.

There's much larger degree of uncertainty to history than you suggest. Take your tale of Pythagoras:

You seem to be interpreting EVERYTHING through the lens of "The Babylonians Started Everything, and everything is based on Babylon", and then simply writing a history that agrees with that statement.

I used Pythagoras sojourn in the Semitic regions simply as a well known example of a outstanding mathematician/philosopher who learned from the Babylonians. That's all.

You keep saying, 'The Babylonians were just another ignorant race... show me their science'... If you want to believe or promulgate that, that's up to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon

I take it you accept the Judaic connection and Moses authoring the first five books of the Bible?
 

Oxymoron

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The great Flood: the Babylonian story

http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood3.html

 

Mick West

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I used Pythagoras sojourn in the Semitic regions simply as a well known example of a outstanding mathematician/philosopher who learned from the Babylonians. That's all.

You keep saying, 'The Babylonians were just another ignorant race... show me their science'... If you want to believe or promulgate that, that's up to you.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there have been several civilizations in the past that developed various bits of mathematics in the past. Pythagoras went to Egypt to learn.

You seem to be saying that everything Babylon touched is then part of Babylon. It's nonsensical. Like you've invented some kind of ancient super-science that permeates everything up to the present day. Its nonsense. All they had was some astrology and math, just like Egypt, Greece, China and India - and independently later in the Mayan culture. It's nothing special, just normal progress.

I take it you accept the Judaic connection and Moses authoring the first five books of the Bible?

No, of course not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Torah
 

Oxymoron

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That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there have been several civilizations in the past that developed various bits of mathematics in the past. Pythagoras went to Egypt to learn.

You seem to be saying that everything Babylon touched is then part of Babylon. It's nonsensical. Like you've invented some kind of ancient super-science that permeates everything up to the present day. Its nonsense. All they had was some astrology and math, just like Egypt, Greece, China and India - and independently later in the Mayan culture. It's nothing special, just normal progress.



No, of course not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Torah

Well I guessed as much... I think we must be Babeling on
 

Oxymoron

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Some people may appreciate this so I will post it.

http://www.uhcg.org/Lost-10-Tribes/walt1-Sumerians.html

 

Mick West

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Some people may appreciate this so I will post it.

http://www.uhcg.org/Lost-10-Tribes/walt1-Sumerians.html


Have you checked all that? Because the Jonathan Swift claim is incorrect, and I suspect several others are also.

Can you actually back up those claims with evidence?
 

Oxymoron

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Have you checked all that? Because the Jonathan Swift claim is incorrect, and I suspect several others are also.

Can you actually back up those claims with evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars

Perhaps inspired by Johannes Kepler (and quoting Kepler's third law of planetary motion), Jonathan Swift's satire Gulliver's Travels (1726) refers to two moons in Part 3, Chapter 3 (the "Voyage to Laputa"), in which Laputa's astronomers are described as having discovered two satellites of Mars orbiting at distances of 3 and 5 Martian diameters, and periods of 10 and 21.5 hours, respectively. The actual orbital distances and periods of Phobos and Deimos are 1.4 and 3.5 Martian diameters, and 7.6 and 30.3 hours, respectively.[1
][


Is this what you meant?
 

Mick West

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Staff member
Does that answer your question... if not, can you be more specific?

My question was

Have you checked all that? Because the Jonathan Swift claim is incorrect, and I suspect several others are also.

Can you actually back up those claims with evidence?

So no, it does not answer it. I don't see how the question could be more specific.
 

Oxymoron

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Well let's deal with the Jonathan Swift claim first.

What is it that you are unhappy about with this... what, apart from minor discrepancy, is wrong with it?
 

Oxymoron

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This is interesting as it deals with the 'influence' that Babylonian Mystery Religion appears to have on world leaders of today.


http://binnallofamerica.com/rr12.12.9.html

 

Mick West

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Staff member
Well let's deal with the Jonathan Swift claim first.

What is it that you are unhappy about with this... what, apart from minor discrepancy, is wrong with it?

The claim was that he "correctly gave their dimensions and distance from the planet"

He did not.
 

Oxymoron

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The claim was that he "correctly gave their dimensions and distance from the planet"

He did not.

Fair enough, he was slightly off on their dimensions and distance but lets put that in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars


As Swift's reference predates the actual 'scientific' discovery by over 150 years and given the 'fact' that he is not far wrong, it is very unlikely that it is a 'mere coincidence', any more than the rising of the Sun can be construed as 'a mere coincidence'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(mythology)

Mars has long been the symbol of 'the god of war'. Is it coincidence that the 'dogs of war', Phobos and Deimos should be associated.




http://www.theseekerbooks.com/articles/sitchen.htm

And what of the Dogon tribe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people#Culture_and_religion

"the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or 'star of the Sigui'[18]), has two companion stars, pō tolo (the Digitaria star), and ęmmę ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A."

Sirius B was not 'discovered' until 1862

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius#Discovery_of_a_companion

 

Mick West

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Fair enough, he was slightly off on their dimensions and distance but lets put that in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars


As Swift's reference predates the actual 'scientific' discovery by over 150 years and given the 'fact' that he is not far wrong, it is very unlikely that it is a 'mere coincidence', any more than the rising of the Sun can be construed as 'a mere coincidence'.

The ONLY thing he got right was the number of moons. He was way off both on their size and position. At that time it was well known that planets had moons, it was known that Earth had one, Jupiter and Saturn were known to have several, and I'd imagine several people hazarded a guess as to how many Mars might have. Swift gets a mention because he made a lucky guess, a very simple extrapolation based on known science at the time.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
And what of the Dogon tribe?

Weren't you making a case for Babylon being the source of all knowledge at a higher level than was possible at the time?
So are you saying the Dogons learnt this from the Babylonians?

Mars has long been the symbol of 'the god of war'. Is it coincidence that the 'dogs of war', Phobos and Deimos should be associated.

Well, wouldn't that be the point, choosing those names? Astronomers like a consistent theme as much as anyone else.
 

Oxymoron

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Weren't you making a case for Babylon being the source of all knowledge at a higher level than was possible at the time?
So are you saying the Dogon's learnt this from the Babylonians?

Not necessarily, All I suggest is the Babylonian/Sumerian/Arkadian civilisation are the main source of both science and religion. That does not exclude other sources.

The reason I broach the subject of Babylonian Mystery Religion is because there is strong evidence that it threads through history and through religious doctrines and impacts on the world today through secret societies.


I am not saying that I personally believe 'in it', (although many aspects sound quite reasonable when viewed from a certain viewpoint)

I am saying that to deny the existence of this religion impacting on the modern world (and throughout history), is the same as denying that 'any other major religion' has impacted and is impacting on the world.

Let me make myself clear, I believe religion has been a major contributor/instigator of much of man's inhumanity to man. It has by and large been 'foisted' upon mankind as a tool for control by the elite. I do not believe that Christianity would have been harmful to mankind if it had not been usurped and completely transformed around 300 ad by Constantine and those who followed him... i.e. subsequent popes.

I think much of all the world religions are allegorical.

The practices of the elite, both past and present are rooted in an esoteric doctrine which uses symbolism (which is very apparent and in plain sight) which they understand but which the masses take on face value.

If I could produce evidence that Popes x, y and z had a shrine to an owl at which he offered burnt offerings in the form of a child, that would show clearly that they were not sincere in their protestations that they were adherents of the Abrahamic derived religion which they profess publicly to believe in.

Yet when the elite, who profess to be staunch Christians and believers in God, are conclusively shown to do that and much much more, viz blood oaths to keep their fellows secrets up to and including murder and treason, rebirths from coffins, (as in the Osiris legends), it is said 'Oh they are just playing around enjoying themselves'. Like the previous post stated: the elite have certainly put a lot of time, money and research into something they claim is just a bit of harmless recreational fun


Well, wouldn't that be the point, choosing those names? Astronomers like a consistent theme as much as anyone else.
That is certainly one explanation and I do not discount it. It is when you start putting things in context that the other explanations become more viable.

Much in religion and politics has been deliberately changed and obfuscated so it is obviously difficult to get to the truth but there are certain things that really stand out.

That is: the elite are out for themselves and are abusing their powers by making war, physically, economically, psychologically and they are actually using/manipulating the masses to do it.
 

MikeC

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All I suggest is the Babylonian/Sumerian/Arkadian civilisation are the main source of both science and religion. That does not exclude other sources.

How do you quantify how much any given civilisation is a "source" of science and religion?
 

Oxymoron

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How do you quantify how much any given civilisation is a "source" of science and religion?

A very good question and I suggest not exactly easy to answer in a truly definitive fashion. But I would hazzard as a rule of thumb by how 'adopted' or 'integrated', (even on a hidden level) that 'source' has been throughout the ages.

Science is built upon the knowledge and understanding of our forefathers.


Here it can be clearly seen how interwoven early Abrahmic religion is with Babylonian religion, albeit that they were ideologically oppesed and indeed mortal enemies.

http://prophecytimes.com/default.aspx?content_id=2950

This only serves to magnify the dichotomy produced by merging the Christian religion with the Babylonian religion as has been evidenced by writings and rituals which ensued after the Papalisation of Christianity. (sorry if I made up a word but I'm sure you know what I mean).

So yes, tracing back to the earliest mention of things like the Great Flood of Noah's time etc and seeing it thread through later religions is the only way I see possible of quantifying these ideas.

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/gilgamesh.html

Tying these things together and trying to understand what is really being relayed is the only scientific way I can see of doing it.

Naturally, there will be different interpretations. The Bible has been interpreted and re interpreted many times to 'prove' this or that. At one time only the Clergy were allowed to interpret, and only then in a set way from which they could not deviate for fear of heresy.

The fact is, the elite make much of these symbols and take the names, e.g Gog Magog etc as George Bush by taking the name and as the City of London using them as protectors and even today clebrating in carnival fashion through the streets annually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

A typical 'history rewrite of convenience:

 

Oxymoron

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http://www.reformation.org/gog-and-magog.html





 
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MikeC

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You are very limited in your approach, only look at het abrahamic religions.

India gave us "0" (zero) - it is only 1 numeral...but how much science could we do without it? AFAIK Hinduism and Budhism that it was developed under owe nothing to Babylonia - Hinduism dates to before Babylonia

China gave us gunpowder - with, AFAIK, no connection at all to Babylonia either - however gunpowder, arguably, has been an invention that has enabled "the West" to make massive strides in science and spreading of religion through warfare.

It is all very well immediately heading off to connections between Mesopotamia and abrahamic religions - you still need to show what other connections exist that do not fit that pattern in order to be able to compare.
 

Mick West

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I don't think anyone (other than hardcore christians) has an issue with things like Babylonian antecedents for things like the flood myth. That's found in several old cultures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
Nor, I think, would people quibble with the assertion that there was a civilization in Babylon, and they had some law, math, astronomy, and science, some of which eventually evolved into things we use today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
What I disagree with is any evidence of ancient telescopes (or visiting spacemen), and any evidence that anyone now in power takes the babylonian connection at all seriously as anything more than theater.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
If any great civilisation is looked at by someone who is not familiar with it, the sophistication and complexity can seem miraculous.
We just seem to assume we are the epitome of human endeavour, and in some ways we are, but the people who lived thousands of years ago are the same people we are, and just as capable of great things. Reading contemporary accounts of ancient societies really makes you see how little we've changed fundamentally.
This may influence how we interpret past civilisations as having 'knowledge they couldn't possibly have had on their own'.
History is large, and to most a vague abstraction unless you really study it.

(not sure if this is relevant)
 

Mick West

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He is a very well known conspiracy theorist who is known for unnecessarily jumping to conclusions without any proof of it whatsoever, or misquoting people.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/alex-jones/

Sorry, I was just making a joke earlier, based on this response:

Pythagoras spent 22 years studying in Babylonia. He did it for a reason. The Babylonians had secrets and understanding way beyond the Greeks and Romans

Even CNN acknowledge it. Well I suppose they have to be right sometimes

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/12/17/old.babylonian.math/index.html

Should have used a bigger smiley :)
 

Oxymoron

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If any great civilisation is looked at by someone who is not familiar with it, the sophistication and complexity can seem miraculous.
We just seem to assume we are the epitome of human endeavour, and in some ways we are, but the people who lived thousands of years ago are the same people we are, and just as capable of great things. Reading contemporary accounts of ancient societies really makes you see how little we've changed fundamentally.
This may influence how we interpret past civilisations as having 'knowledge they couldn't possibly have had on their own'.
History is large, and to most a vague abstraction unless you really study it.

(not sure if this is relevant)

Well I agree, FWTW.

How different are we from our ancestors if we remove our trappings? Are we really any cleverer? How would we cope in any given era?

Richard Dawkins book on the 'Selfish Gene', excellent... but if you strip it right down to basics does it not equate to 'Do as you would be done by'?

And what about limiting retribution for a transgression... 'An eye for an eye', i.e. let the punishment fit the crime.

Our ancestors have made plenty of mistakes, no doubt about it and I am often reminded of the saying... 'Why does history keep repeating itself.... because we didn't learn the first time'.
 

Oxymoron

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I don't think anyone (other than hardcore christians) has an issue with things like Babylonian antecedents for things like the flood myth. That's found in several old cultures:

That's basically what I was attempting to demonstrate but whilst focussing on Judeo Christian teachings/dogma which has played such an integral part in 'the west's' history, although I in no way intended it as exclusive. I think Mike is wrong when he states Indo Chinese religions pre date Sumerian. I am aware many schools of thought cite Buddhism as being derived from Sumerian religions and the gods are often interchangeable. Similarly, many people ascribe the enlightenment, (and especially the physical condition) of the Chinese monks to learning from India. Shaolin temples were fundamentally religious and the physical aspect merely an extension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Asian_martial_arts
Nor, I think, would people quibble with the assertion that there was a civilization in Babylon, and they had some law, math, astronomy, and science, some of which eventually evolved into things we use today.

I think you underestimate them IMO, perhaps if you looked into it more you may be surprised.


What I disagree with is any evidence of ancient telescopes (or visiting spacemen), and any evidence that anyone now in power takes the babylonian connection at all seriously as anything more than theater.

I agree it is circumstantial evidence, but I think it is also very compelling. The practises and symbolism employed by many of the elite is clearly derived/copied directly from Babylonian Religion or indirectly through transmission into the Judeo Christian religions.

The Osiris story is about the fall of the religion and how it's proponents were scattered into different lands. Osiris represents the religious doctrine, Isis represents the church. Isis gathered in the disseminated parts and resurrected them, but in secret and lacking the penis or 'generative' part of the religion, which is why it had to stay underground.

Look at the Papal emblem

[Broken External Image]:http://beforeitsnews.com/ckfinder/userfiles/0000000000003011/images/770px-logoromanempire.jpg

and the Freemason two headed eagle.

[Broken External Image]:http://beforeitsnews.com/ckfinder/userfiles/0000000000003011/images/Morals_and_Dogma_eagle.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternativ...inati-god-of-chaos-and-deception-1108892.html

Sorry but CNN doesn't really report this stuff as a rule :)
 

Oxymoron

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http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/i...ompanies&catid=55:masonic-articles&Itemid=200

http://higherrevelations.wordpress....nd-the-freemasons-a-study-of-the-magic-flute/





[url]http://www.elijahproject.net/abiff.html


 
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Mick West

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Why on earth would CNN report that? The two headed eagle is just a symbol from heraldry derived from ancient mythology, like a dragon, a unicorn, a griffin.

Animals with two heads, or two faces, occur in nature sometimes (conjoined twins). It's hardly surprising they are thought significant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandaberunda
I think the problem with your theory again here is that you just grossly simplify, picking out one possibly thread from the vast complexity of history, and making connection where there are none.

The use of symbols seems to me more to be a reference to the current state of things, and the aspirations of an organization, rather than some obscure occult reference. They use traditional imagery because it's a language to describe what they mean, not because they are repeating something from ages past. Or they do it basically because it's "cool", not because they believe in ancient gods.

But if you start out convinced such a connection exists, then obviously you will start seeing it everywhere.
 
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