How Was I Bunked To Begin With?

[FatPhil]

I'm not sure what you thought that would do, after all I quoted wikipedia:Cecotrope in post #19.

You quoted a bit that included the reverse-peristalsis technique, which is more akin to chewing the cud, and then followed up by saying the eating poop part was bunk.

 

[FatPhil]

that's asking them to disengage with you

How will that be anything apart from a complete failure to explain their ideas? They're welcome to use that technique, its outcome will be predictable.

 

[FatPhil]

Do you really think that will resonate with people like these?

Any lack of resonance will be matched by an equal and opposite surfeit of resonance in my diaphragm as I laugh.

Admit it - you laughed a bit when you read those posts, didn't you?

 

[Mendel]

You quoted a bit that included the reverse-peristalsis technique

I did not.

 

[FatPhil]

I did not.

I think I've worked out what you were trying to say originally - namely that any pronouncement that attributes the property of being "unclean" to anything because of any reason would still be bunk, becuase the property of "unclean" is itself bunk.

Edit: and technically, you did - that whole page is about things created from reverse peristalsis.

 

[Mendel]

Edit: and technically, you did - that whole page is about things created from reverse peristalsis.

But the main word is "reingested", which also features in my quote, while reverse peristalsis does not. So technically, I did not quote that bit.

 

[JMartJr]

Best discussion of leporine copraphagy on all of Metabunk.

 

[Ann K]

Best discussion of leporine copraphagy on all of Metabunk.

With luck, the last one.

 

[NorCal Dave]

A whole lot of flat earthers fall into this general category.

I so wanted to try this, although I'm not sure exactly what he's getting at. Unfortunately sunny California has lately looked more like what I imagine the UK is like:

Haven't seen the sun but a few days since before Christmas. This is where the sun will set later today. Is the guy trying to say that he used the actual bottom part of the square for his calculations or something like the the 2 trees that line up with the corners of the square?

This leaning tree, zoomed in, lines up with he right right corner of the square. But it's set back from the other tree, so what we want to look at is the red gate near the bottom of the photo:

And this zoomed in tree lines up with the left corner:

According to Google maps, that tree and gate are 880' apart. So one leg of our Pythagorean formula.

But then the guy says he lines the 45* part of the square up with a "crepuscular ray", while the vertical part of the square points at the sun. However, crepuscular rays usually only happen after the sun sets, but the term can be misused:

Crepuscular rays

are sunbeams that originate when the Sun is just below the horizon, during the twilight period.[1] Crepuscular rays are noticeable when the contrast between light and dark is most obvious.

Loosely, the term crepuscular rays is sometimes extended to the general phenomenon of rays of sunlight that appear to converge at a point in the sky, irrespective of time of day.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crepuscular_rays

EDIT: I was doing this post on 2 different computers. I often use a crappy PC and type longer posts in Word, then paste, so as to attempt to correct my bad spelling. But my phone is linked to our Mac, so that's where my photos are easily grabbed and inserted, but my wife was using it. So, in the confusion I left out the following section:

I'm thinking of this as an example of trying to engage someone in what they say. Like asking a FE person to create a model of how the sun and moon and stars and such work. This guy said he estimated the height of the sun by holding a speed square up to the sky. I figured, ok, I have lots of speed squares, I can clearly see the horizon and when not in the middle of an atmospheric river, this is where the sun sets.

I'm not great at math, but I figured this wouldn't work, so it's more of showing what I thought the guy was trying to say. Again, meeting an FE person where they are coming from.

Maybe this needs it's own thread, estimating the height of the sun with a speed square or something.

 

[Ann K]

Maybe this needs it's own thread, estimating the hight of the sun with a speed square or something.

I really didn't think calculations that put the sun 3000 miles away needed to be debunked here!

 

[Mendel]

Maybe this needs it's own thread, estimating the hight of the sun with a speed square or something.

I suggest using an astrolabe.

Article:

Source: https://www.pierpress.com/pierperspectives/2015/4/18/making-a-simple-astrolabe

Do not look at the sun!

Adjust the astrolabe to make the sun shine through the straw by monitoring the straw's shadow. You can then read off the zenith angle z of the sun (0⁰ means straight up).

The next step is to find the subsolar point.

Article:

A place that currently has the sun directly above is called the subsolar point.

The circle shows the current subsolar point. Its position updates automatically and moves from right to left along the yellow line.

Source: https://rl.se/subsolarpoint

Determine your distance d to the subsolar point using a Flat Earth map.

The altitude of the sun is computed as d / tan(z).

 

[NorCal Dave]

I really didn't think calculations that put the sun 3000 miles away needed to be debunked here!

Ya sure? Maybe the speed square method will in fact show the sun is closer than we think . Actually, I left part of the post out and went back and edited it. I meant it more as engaging someone where they're at and maybe showing what they thought was true doesn't work.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

With luck, the last one.

I'm not searching for any and didn't much read above.. Not a topic I'm on about at the moment. Sorry!

 

[obiwanbenobi]

A bit ago I had another conversation with a previously mentioned person here in this thread (or perhaps in other places but I can't hunt that down because I didn't use even a fake name I could search on) and once again they were going on about their vaccinated acquaintenances who were always sick and I had to remind them about how I was doing ok. It was hard to break them out of their diatribe about how the world was going to crap and all their other negative stuff but I just kept trying to get them to pull back and think about other things. In many cases their response was that they'd be dead soon. Nothing like making themselves miserable. Certainly not for me. I'm a realist and I don't like to waste energy on worrying about things I can't change. I know I'm capable of responding to things that happen so they don't worry me, as you get older though, capabilities decline.

 

[Ann K]

once again they were going on about their vaccinated acquaintenances who were always sick and I had to remind them about how I was doing ok. It was hard to break them out of their diatribe about how the world was going to crap and all their other negative stuff but I just kept trying to get them to pull back and think about other things. In many cases their response was that they'd be dead soon.

You started this thread with comments about religion and bunk, and when I read this last post I wondered whether that was the reason for this person's negativity. Evangelical Christians in the USA (are you here, or elsewhere?) worked hard to promote conservative policies, and the "vaccinations are no good" attitude is a feature of both the religion and the political party. Combine that with their "world is going to crap" and the "Armageddon is coming" messages, and I can't help but wonder why people flock to the group that offers them that bleak prospect. Thanks for trying to talk sense to the guy, but if his beliefs are based on emotion rather than facts, it's difficult to break that chain.

 

[deirdre]

Combine that with their "world is going to crap" and the "Armageddon is coming" messages, and I can't help but wonder why people flock to the group that offers them that bleak prospect.

it's not a bleak prospect if you're on the right side.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

You started this thread with comments about religion and bunk, and when I read this last post I wondered whether that was the reason for this person's negativity.

I would say that this person uses religion as a shield and a comfort but not as an actual believer of the sort that would compare to a fundamentalist (I've known plenty of them and at one time was trying to convince myself I should belong to them).

Evangelical Christians in the USA (are you here, or elsewhere?) worked hard to promote conservative policies, and the "vaccinations are no good" attitude is a feature of both the religion and the political party. Combine that with their "world is going to crap" and the "Armageddon is coming" messages, and I can't help but wonder why people flock to the group that offers them that bleak prospect. Thanks for trying to talk sense to the guy, but if his beliefs are based on emotion rather than facts, it's difficult to break that chain.

A part of it is based upon things that likely happened a long time ago and it is very hard to get them to be willing to go back and rethink about those happenings and try to see things from a different perspective.

Pretty much now most of what I'm doing is defensive to try to moderate their negativity and to try to deflect them into talking about more positive things - to point out that even if they think everything is going to heck that some of us don't see it that ways and we're not going down without a fight (or a laugh or a face full of cream pie or ...). I'm not here on this planet to be miserable.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

it's not a bleak prospect if you're on the right side.

Alas they don't even find happiness in that.

Eyorism is a habit of mine at times too and I know where it came from. Still when it is all they wish to talk about I'm like, please let's talk about other things somehow. Sometimes I have to just pick a topic and go along with it a ways just because if I don't say something we'll be back at the other stuff again.

 

[deirdre]

Alas they don't even find happiness in that.

well a virus that culls the herd (as viruses are meant to do) of older and unwell people, isnt a bleak prospect for healthy young people..but it would be weird if they found happiness in that. It's still a bummer when lots of people die.

 

[tinkertailor]

Eyorism is a habit of mine at times too and I know where it came from. Still when it is all they wish to talk about I'm like, please let's talk about other things somehow. Sometimes I have to just pick a topic and go along with it a ways just because if I don't say something we'll be back at the other stuff again.

I have family members who get a bit obsessive about vaccines/politics/etc. I've recently made a concerted effort to establish hard boundaries when it comes to talking about hot topics. I basically told my family member that they are welcome to talk about it, but if they talk about it to me I will disengage and, should it continue, remove myself from the situation for a while. I find that sometimes they want to get a rise out of me, and disengaging makes it so they can't get satisfaction. I'm pretty obvious about it, too: I'll pick up my phone and open up Instagram in front of them if they mention vaccines to me in person, then completely stop paying attention to them. If we're texting, I don't read or respond to their messages. Over the phone, I'll give them two passive "mmhmm"s in conversation, and if they continue I'll just say "Look, I'm not changing my mind on this and you're not changing yours. Can we talk about something else? I'm just not into debating this anymore." If they persist, I hang up.

For me, these methods work. Your mileage may vary. I feel like everyone is different, dynamics differ between people and you never really know, but it's working for me. It's enabled me to get to know them outside of their beliefs, and that's been wonderful.

 

[Ann K]

(as viruses are meant to do)

oh, c'mon now!

 

[LambMaster]

Just ask them to build a model of the earth, and explain the path of the sun on this model, and the moon, and then also explain why we are pinned at 1g to earth's surface. Now grab a pot of tea, you'll both have deserved it. After that, get them to show the path of the ISS in this model, and then explain why the astronauts on the ISS feel no nett downward force.

They have no model. They won't even get to the second clause. At that point, everything they say will either contradict a measurable fact, or something they've previously said.

They have workarounds for nearly everything. Some of these people refuse to accept gravity, optics or even Newtonian mechanics. I still think that some of them are trolling while others are exercising a "question everything" mentality where their response to any scientific theory is, "you never know they could be lieing to us". There is also a refusal to examine anything to a level of detail where their contradictions can become apparent.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

I'm sad to say that attempts to calm down some of the more extreme conspiracy theorists in my family have generally failed - I don't have the gentle temperament that is probably needed [acknowledging this about myself is at least a first step in possible improvement]...

I have made progress in my own mental state by simply walking away when some of them start in on their favorite conspiracy theory of the day (mostly politics, but a few of them spewing racist BS) and I also have reduced my contacts as much as possible with them.

Things for which I am thankful. Nobody is a flat-earther...

 

[obiwanbenobi]

...
For me, these methods work. Your mileage may vary. I feel like everyone is different, dynamics differ between people and you never really know, but it's working for me. It's enabled me to get to know them outside of their beliefs, and that's been wonderful.

I'm so glad you've been able to do that. I have relatives that are oblivious to even direct requests.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

A report from the trenches.

They seem to be getting deeper.

The Trumper Cult members have taken over most of my friends and family.

I won't even get into the religious aspects of Christians voting for a non-Christian, them not being able to recognize evil or a bunch of other happenings. Pretty much I had given up hope of even being able to live here for much longer, but somehow we are ambling through it.

Ok, I did get confrontational one time but it did no good. I talked in a language I hoped they could understood. English, straight up, few words, very direct. I said they had joined a cult. Previously they'd said that their cult leader had done a good job of running the country (I did not agree with that but also did not specificly get into each and every possible thing he screwed over). In response though I did say a few things about running a business and that their cult leader was not a very good one and as an example I started with talking about how a casino makes money and then I said that their cult leader had managed to bankrupt a casino. I also asked them to talk to someone else they know (who is also in the cult) who knows accounting and math what it would take to be able to bankrupt a casino.

Some days later I avoid an argument with someone by ignoring their negative and sexist statements which are not at all in line with Christian loving of their fellow humans and only a few moments later they are talking about going to church.

Some people I know are cult members I'm not planning on talking to that much any more. That's the best I can do is to avoid them.

Now at least for some good news I did find out some other people I did not know were on the more rational side of things and I felt some relief and being glad that I was not so alone after all. I was worried about them being cult members since one of the people was raised in a very conservative area and I assumed that they were a pro cult supporter and perhaps even a member. We were able to have a nice conversation and at least I felt humans might have a chance after all.

Today with the fall of Syrian dictator Assad and the boot in the butt perhaps to Putin's bases in Syria we can reduce how much trouble they were causing for many other countries in that area as they were using those bases as staging areas. We shall see.

I'll leave this at that.

 

[Ann K]

@obiwanbenobi
I sympathize. I'm also dismayed by the current political situation. My circle of friends has shrunk (several of the older ones died of Covid and some I just don't care to speak to for political reasons). I'm also at an advanced age where my night vision is a bit iffy, and because of that I have had to drop out of a society that I loved because I'd rather not drive a long distance at night to the meetings any more. At least I have the conversation of intelligent adults on line to keep me sane!

I have one good friend that comes over regularly (as well as another that I really like to talk to, but who has sunk into a deep depression and seldom wants to interact with people). My good friend and I went out to eat a few weeks ago (pre-election) and there was a well-dressed elderly woman (our age bracket) eating alone at the next table. In previous years, we might have invited her to join us, but this year we are leery of strangers, and did not fancy sharing a meal with a Trump supporter. I hate that climate of suspicion in which we all find ourselves these days, the deep division among us all.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

@Ann K sometimes other people make choices for me that I would prefer they didn't.

When forced into something I am trying to be civil, but I'm also avoiding some other things because I really want to have a nice and peaceful day and so the only way I can get that now is to be alone.

I understand about not wanting to drive at night. I'm not old enough that I can't do it, but I sure prefer not to do that because of how many deer there are around here. I hope you can have a nice holiday season with your close friends.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

I was dreading the holiday conversation with certain relatives. I actually had much worse conversations at events weeks before the holidays instead of what actually happened on Christmas Eve. So for that I am thankful for a good offense that I ran during most of those phone calls. We avoided harsh words and tangents off into the happy conspiracies of the day, etc. And then we hung up and got on with our lives. Perfect.

Closer to home it gets a bit harder, but conversations will have to happen and I don't know how those might go. I hope well. Dunno.

Peace and Love to all in this New Year.