How to Debunk Flat Earth Without Relying on NASA or Photos

[chrono117]

Hello. I'm brand new to this board. I want to share my experiences and get some reassurance. I've been an evangelical Christian (Cavalry Chapel) since I was a teen (nearly 20 years ago). I converted out of Catholicism with my mother. I made a good friend in the church. We play Dungeons and Dragons together and stuff.
Anyway, about a year ago, my friend started entertaining notions of Flat Eartherism. I moved out of state for a job and we barely talk anymore.
Last week, my mother texted that she now believed in FE. I answered all her questions about gravity, air pressure, electromagnetism, etc. but she persisted in sending me several of those annoying YouTube videos a day. I asked her to stop and we've put it behind us, but I'm collecting proofs for my own peace of mind. I'm willing to argue on her terms, that all NASA photos are fake, all other photos are doctored or fish-eye, and any geology/seismic data is fake.
She accepts the Gleason Map, so I point out the Southern Hemisphere and told her to ask an Australian, South African, Chilean, or Argentinian if that's what their country looks like.
I showed her a century of logs and training manuals of ship captains, overland drivers, and aircraft pilots all assuming and verifying round-earth measurements. They couldn't all be in on a conspiracy. They're all practical people earning money or fighting in wars.
Finally, I collected centuries of books and articles by cartographers agonizing about how to represent a globe earth on a flat map. Why would they waste all that time on an error if the flat earth were so easy to see?
The big conundrum I have is that her final authority is the Bible. As long as she interprets "firmament" and "pillars" and "cannot be moved" literally, her whole faith in God's promises will be shaken if she doubts.

 

[Mick West]

The big conundrum I have is that her final authority is the Bible. As long as she interprets "firmament" and "pillars" and "cannot be moved" literally, her whole faith in God's promises will be shaken if she doubts.

That's a tricky one. But you might ask her what she thinks a "pillar" actually is? How is she arriving at a "literal" interpretation of the Bible? I mean would she handle snakes?

 

[Mick West]

And I don't mean that unkindly. I think all Christians (and other religions) have a varying degree to which they think certain things in holy books are literal, or figurative. There are many things in which a literal interpretation is in serious conflict with reality, so it's parsed differently. But there's almost always someone who takes it "more literally" than you do.

 

[deirdre]

Can't she ask her Pastor what those phrases mean?

Notice He sits upon the circle of the earth. The Bible did not and does not and has never taught a flat earth. That was the view of the scientists of those days, not the men of God. The Bible has never taught that the earth rested on the back of an elephant or a turtle, or was being held by Atlas. That was taught by the men of science in those days. But Job said, "He hanged the earth on nothing" (Job 26:7). He was scoffed at. How ridiculous! And so here, the circle of the earth. The earth is round. God's Word declared it. Scientists finally caught up with it.

https://calvarychapel.com/pastorchuck/c2k/isaiah-36-40

People who are always looking to find fault with something in the Bible, and they say the Bible was reflecting the superstition or the intelligence of the day, because they say the four corners of the earth. So evidently John believed that the earth was flat, and thus you have the four corners and he was guilty of the flatter theory. Thus, you can't rely on the Bible because it does have fallacies, such as the four corners of the earth.

Well I saw a sign that said the Marines were in the four corners of the earth, so you can't trust the defense department, because they don't realize that the earth is round. They think that it has corners.

No. The idea is the quadrants; north, east, south and west. But interestingly enough, the physicists and all now declare that there really are four corners on the earth. The earth isn't actually round. The poles are flattened somewhat to make the bulge at the equator. So, the earth is more of an elliptical shape, but the bulge actually creates about four corners of the earth. And that is one of the latest declarations of those men who study such things.

https://calvarychapel.com/pastorchuck/c2k/revelation-7-9

 

[deirdre]

this says the founder of her Church, "Pastor Chuck" (quoted above) was a biblical literalist. so wouldnt he know?

He was a biblical literalist who believed staunchly in hell, Armageddon and the sinfulness of homosexuality. But from the pulpit, and in person, he emanated a disarming warmth.

https://www.latimes.com/tn-dpt-me-1004-chuck-smith-obit-20131003-story.html

 

[chrono117]

this says the founder of her Church, "Pastor Chuck" (quoted above) was a biblical literalist. so wouldnt he know?

He was a biblical literalist who believed staunchly in hell, Armageddon and the sinfulness of homosexuality. But from the pulpit, and in person, he emanated a disarming warmth.

https://www.latimes.com/tn-dpt-me-1004-chuck-smith-obit-20131003-story.html

Thank you so much. You bring up some supportive points. I'll take the small victories over Flat Earther-ism. I gave up the debate on creationism. I wish she wouldn't be telling kids that dinosaurs and people lived at the same time. Young-Earthers have a pretty big community, but I don't want her calling pilots and Australians and satellite techs all liars.

She's never shown any prejudice against homosexuality or other races, so that's good.

 

[deirdre]

but I'm collecting proofs for my own peace of mind.

well there are plenty of people who address flat earth claims and the bible quotes. just google around.

But if you want to do some of your own experiments, check out the FE forum. https://www.metabunk.org/forums/Flat-Earth/ "Stand up to detect the Curve" is a good one. "How to verify the sun is a distant sphere" is good too. I like threads about the "stars" and how where the stars are at different earth locations disproves the FE map. I think different proofs and different debunk topics probably resonate with different people. So browse through the forum, you know yourself (and your mom) best.

 

[Rory]

Hello. I'm brand new to this board. I want to share my experiences and get some reassurance. I've been an evangelical Christian (Cavalry Chapel) since I was a teen (nearly 20 years ago). I converted out of Catholicism with my mother. Last week, my mother texted that she now believed in FE.

The big conundrum I have is that her final authority is the Bible. As long as she interprets "firmament" and "pillars" and "cannot be moved" literally, her whole faith in God's promises will be shaken if she doubts.

Hi there, hope you're doing okay with all this, and thanks for sharing. I could offer some simple flat earth debunks but, really, my first question is, how is it affecting her? Is there something negative about the belief? Is it bothering her, or other people, in a harmful way? Your last sentence seems to indicate that it may actually be bringing her something positive.

I guess that would be my starting point with this. Hopefully this find you well.

 

[Sagittarius]

Just ask her where the sun goes at night. If the earth were flat, it would never disappear from view.

 

[Inti]

Hello. I'm brand new to this board. I want to share my experiences and get some reassurance. I've been an evangelical Christian (Cavalry Chapel) since I was a teen (nearly 20 years ago). I converted out of Catholicism with my mother. I made a good friend in the church. We play Dungeons and Dragons together and stuff.
Anyway, about a year ago, my friend started entertaining notions of Flat Eartherism. I moved out of state for a job and we barely talk anymore.
Last week, my mother texted that she now believed in FE. I answered all her questions about gravity, air pressure, electromagnetism, etc. but she persisted in sending me several of those annoying YouTube videos a day. I asked her to stop and we've put it behind us, but I'm collecting proofs for my own peace of mind. I'm willing to argue on her terms, that all NASA photos are fake, all other photos are doctored or fish-eye, and any geology/seismic data is fake.
She accepts the Gleason Map, so I point out the Southern Hemisphere and told her to ask an Australian, South African, Chilean, or Argentinian if that's what their country looks like.
I showed her a century of logs and training manuals of ship captains, overland drivers, and aircraft pilots all assuming and verifying round-earth measurements. They couldn't all be in on a conspiracy. They're all practical people earning money or fighting in wars.
Finally, I collected centuries of books and articles by cartographers agonizing about how to represent a globe earth on a flat map. Why would they waste all that time on an error if the flat earth were so easy to see?
The big conundrum I have is that her final authority is the Bible. As long as she interprets "firmament" and "pillars" and "cannot be moved" literally, her whole faith in God's promises will be shaken if she doubts.

I am surprised to find myself suggesting Answers in Genesis as a source, but this is a lengthy and fairly detailed rejection of the idea that biblical literalism supports a flat earth, from the leading biblical creationist site.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

This is another critique of the way flat earth promoters use biblical quotations;
http://flatearthdeception.com/biblical-proofs-of-the-globe-earth/

Hope this is useful

 

[DavidB66]

Just ask her where the sun goes at night. If the earth were flat, it would never disappear from view.

In ancient flat-earth mythologies, e.g. in Egypt, it was assumed that at night the sun went underneath the earth, or under the ocean, into a cave, etc., so that it was dark simultaneously throughout the inhabited world. With modern geographic knowledge and communications this kind of explanation would not be tenable, because even flat-earthers accept that some parts of the inhabited surface are in daylight, and other parts in darkness, at any given time. To explain day and night they therefore have to find other ideas. The most common 'explanation' is that the sun circles at a constant height above the earth, but that as it gets further away from any given point it's light becomes fainter and eventually disappears. They have also invented spurious doctrines of 'perspective' to explain how it appears to sink below the horizon. None of this really works, but to people who want to believe it, and don't understand or trust the standard scientific account, it is apparently convincing enough. I suspect that if the original poster asks his or her mother to explain the setting sun, she will say something about perspective.

 

[Sagittarius]

They have also invented spurious doctrines of 'perspective' to explain how it appears to sink below the horizon. None of this really works, but to people who want to believe it, and don't understand or trust the standard scientific account, it is apparently convincing enough. I suspect that if the original poster asks his or her mother to explain the setting sun, she will say something about perspective.

And of course, they don't realize that 'perspective' doesn't mean what they think it means!

 

[Mendel]

My favorite low-tech Flat Earth debunks

I'm willing to argue on her terms, that all NASA photos are fake, all other photos are doctored or fish-eye, and any geology/seismic data is fake.

These are low-tech observations that anyone can do themselves, at home. Having someone do an observation themselves increases their buy-in, they are more invested in the outcome and more likely to trust the result. The observations debunk that 1. moon is its own light, 2. the sky is a dome above the Earth, 3. the sun circles above the Earth, 4. a water surface is flat and can't be spherical. If the sky is a sphere, and sun and moon move on a spherical path, we must be on a sphere inside it. (This is as far as the ancient Greeks got, 2400 years ago.)

1. Hold a ball up to a daytime moon to see that it is lit by the sun:

Source: Phuket Word (Youtube)

2. Use a skyglobe and star trails to show spherical sky motion:
* buy or craft a skyglobe, crafting instructions and printout files e.g. here: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/skyglobe.html
* confirm that the night sky conforms to the sky globe, with no perspective distortion
* confirm that it rotates about the celestial pole via systematic observation, or "time lapse night sky" videos on youtube such as this one:

Spoiler: Screenshot

Source: https://youtu.be/Z3xkHmC-KQE


3. Track a sundial near the equinox
With the equinox coming up, sundial tracks (tracking the tip of the shadow) are now straight everywhere on Earth (they're usually curved at other times, except in places where the sun passes overhead).

(track taken yesterday in New South Wales by Dinki Di Dori)
The maths behind this is that the tip of the stick (the "gnomon") produces a point projection of the sun and its path, so the track should always be circular on a flat Earth with a sun circling overhead. This video explains it in detail:

Source: https://youtu.be/8jNo2Gw1Ha0

Spoiler: screenshots

(I think Mick West has a post on how to make a paper sundial, but I can't find it right now.)

4. Blow a soap bubble

This is the most beautiful demonstration that water will be a sphere if the conditions are right.

 

[chrono117]

Just ask her where the sun goes at night. If the earth were flat, it would never disappear from view.

She's pretty satisfied with the pizza pie covered in glass dome model of the Earth. What causes the sun to go around in a curved path (in defiance of momentum and gravity) and shine a flashlight beam on the day portion is never explained. It's especially complicated with the Moon rolling around up there.

 

[chrono117]

I am surprised to find myself suggesting Answers in Genesis as a source, but this is a lengthy and fairly detailed rejection of the idea that biblical literalism supports a flat earth, from the leading biblical creationist site.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

This is another critique of the way flat earth promoters use biblical quotations;
http://flatearthdeception.com/biblical-proofs-of-the-globe-earth/

Hope this is useful

Answers in Genesis has some good stuff. The heliocentric globe model predates most of the protestant reformation, so they must've dealt with it when forming doctrine.
Now she's getting into "Mudflood" whatever that is.

 

[Mick West]

1. Hold a ball up to a daytime moon to see that it is lit by the sun:

Source: Phuket Word (Youtube)

That's an unfortunate choice of photo, as the shadow from the person's hand looks far more like a moon shadow than the actual shadow.

There's some other examples here:
https://www.metabunk.org/the-moon-tilt-terminator-illusions.t8165/page-2

My version with a rubber ball on a pole.

To duplicate it, ideally use a very smooth ball, like a ping-pong ball, or some sort of rubber ball. It's a fun little experiment.

 

[Mick West]

(I think Mick West has a post on how to make a paper sundial, but I can't find it right now.)

Maybe this?
https://www.metabunk.org/how-to-verify-latitude-and-longitude.t8648/

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbgeoH_5r0A

 

[Mick West]

Hello. I'm brand new to this board. I want to share my experiences and get some reassurance. I've been an evangelical Christian (Cavalry Chapel) since I was a teen (nearly 20 years ago). I converted out of Catholicism with my mother. I made a good friend in the church. We play Dungeons and Dragons together and stuff.
Anyway, about a year ago, my friend started entertaining notions of Flat Eartherism. I moved out of state for a job and we barely talk anymore.
Last week, my mother texted that she now believed in FE.

Do you think this is something specific to followers of this church? It's a pretty popular church. There's two within ten miles of my house.

 

[Sagittarius]

She's pretty satisfied with the pizza pie covered in glass dome model of the Earth. What causes the sun to go around in a curved path (in defiance of momentum and gravity) and shine a flashlight beam on the day portion is never explained. It's especially complicated with the Moon rolling around up there.

She's ignoring observed reality then. Ask her why, when you travel south to a lower latitude, Polaris is visible lower in the northern sky, while the stars we see in the south are visible at a higher altitude, and, depending on how far south we go, stars we never see from home (like Canopus), suddenly become visible to us.

Also ask her how a lunar eclipse works on a flat earth. She'll have to tie herself into a pretzel trying to explain that one!

 

[Mick West]

She's ignoring observed reality then. Ask her why, when you travel south to a lower latitude, Polaris is visible lower in the northern sky, while the stars we see in the south are visible at a higher altitude, and, depending on how far south we go, stars we never see from home (like Canopus), suddenly become visible to us.

Also ask her how a lunar eclipse works on a flat earth. She'll have to tie herself into a pretzel trying to explain that one!

Sure, you can present all manner of problems with the Flat Earth idea - but which of these actually work?

I know quite reasonable people who do not know how an eclipse works in the conventional model. I think that's actually too advanced a topic for the average person, and certainly too advanced for someone who has not really done anything with geometry for decades (if ever).

I really think that asking someone to explain things isn't going to work here - they will just assume there's a FE answer that they don't understand, exactly like there's a globe answer that they also don't understand. You have to be able to show them stuff in an accessible way. What do they actually understand? What can they understand?

 

[deirdre]

they will just assume there's a FE answer that they don't understand, exactly like there's a globe answer that they also don't understand.

that's a really good point. and if you force them to go look for a FE answer, which im sure there is one, that is just one more piece of evidence to add to their total.

 

[chrono117]

Do you think this is something specific to followers of this church? It's a pretty popular church. There's two within ten miles of my house.

No, she pretty much fell away from it. She's King James Version -only. That makes it hard to bring up other translations or the original Hebrew/Greek.

 

[Sagittarius]

Sure, you can present all manner of problems with the Flat Earth idea - but which of these actually work?

I know quite reasonable people who do not know how an eclipse works in the conventional model. I think that's actually too advanced a topic for the average person, and certainly too advanced for someone who has not really done anything with geometry for decades (if ever).

I really think that asking someone to explain things isn't going to work here - they will just assume there's a FE answer that they don't understand, exactly like there's a globe answer that they also don't understand. You have to be able to show them stuff in an accessible way. What do they actually understand? What can they understand?

You're probably right. I just take basic knowledge of earth's and moon's movements, as well as earth's shape, for granted, having learned them as a child, and found nothing wrong with them. [....]

 

[Mendel]

Maybe this?
https://www.metabunk.org/how-to-verify-latitude-and-longitude.t8648/

I just found out that I had Walter Bislin's sundial in mind, decribed at http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Creating+an+Equinox+Sundial+made+of+Paper The page contains a blueprint PDF, assembly instructions, and information on usage as well as a 3D simulator. The advantage over a simple sundial is that it a) takes up less space, and b) confirms elevation=90°-latitude.

 

[Agent K]

Ask why the moon looks upside-down from Australia. Or are all those photos fake too?

 

[Mendel]

Ask why the moon looks upside-down from Australia. Or are all those photos fake too?

That's similar on Flat Earth, because the moon is supposed to be above the equator there as well.

The problem with the moon is, how far away is it? Because if it is close and flat, it should appear elliptical in most places; if it is close and spherical, Australians should see a partially different side (but they don't; and if it is very far away, we have a problem with it not being in the zenith at "lunar high noon".

Plus it's not "not relying on photos" unless you actually go there.

 

[Marianne]

The southern hemisphere is the key to proving the earth is not flat. If you look up sunrise and sunset times on www.timeanddate.com for two locations, Longreach, Queensland and Hobart, Tasmania for December 21st, you will see that the sun rises earlier and sets later the farther south you go - just as it does the farther north you go in the northern hemisphere in June.

Longreach is on the Tropic of Capricorn. The sun set on December 21, 2018 at 7:08 pm.
Hobart is approximately 2,200 kms south of Longreach. The sun set on December 21, 2018 at 8:49 pm.

This is physically impossible on a flat earth.

Also

Just recently, an Air Canada flight from Vancouver, B.C. to Sydney, Australia ran into some nasty, unforeseen turbulence. It was so bad that passengers were bouncing off of the ceiling. The plane was 2 hours past Hawaii when it happened. The pilot flew back to Honolulu so that the injured passengers could receive medical treatment.

You may be wondering, "What does this have to do with proving the earth is not flat?" If you look at a flat earth map, a plane flying from Vancouver to Sydney that is past Hawaii is NOT flying in the correct direction.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...-minor-injuries-after-air-canada-flight-hits/

 

[Qulaey]

Hello. I'm brand new to this board. I want to share my experiences and get some reassurance. I've been an evangelical Christian (Cavalry Chapel) since I was a teen (nearly 20 years ago). I converted out of Catholicism with my mother. I made a good friend in the church. We play Dungeons and Dragons together and stuff.
Anyway, about a year ago, my friend started entertaining notions of Flat Eartherism. I moved out of state for a job and we barely talk anymore.
Last week, my mother texted that she now believed in FE. I answered all her questions about gravity, air pressure, electromagnetism, etc. but she persisted in sending me several of those annoying YouTube videos a day. I asked her to stop and we've put it behind us, but I'm collecting proofs for my own peace of mind. I'm willing to argue on her terms, that all NASA photos are fake, all other photos are doctored or fish-eye, and any geology/seismic data is fake.
She accepts the Gleason Map, so I point out the Southern Hemisphere and told her to ask an Australian, South African, Chilean, or Argentinian if that's what their country looks like.
I showed her a century of logs and training manuals of ship captains, overland drivers, and aircraft pilots all assuming and verifying round-earth measurements. They couldn't all be in on a conspiracy. They're all practical people earning money or fighting in wars.
Finally, I collected centuries of books and articles by cartographers agonizing about how to represent a globe earth on a flat map. Why would they waste all that time on an error if the flat earth were so easy to see?
The big conundrum I have is that her final authority is the Bible. As long as she interprets "firmament" and "pillars" and "cannot be moved" literally, her whole faith in God's promises will be shaken if she doubts.

It must be really frustrating to have to debate your own mother. I think the best way to disprove flat earth is to use their sun.

The proof is not mine... All credit goes to the original poster, who ever he or she was.
Explain it to her like this.

Ask your mother to imagine a tennis ball and a basketbal, the basketball being the sun and the tennis ball being the earth. use a piece of thread to represent a single beam of light. Can the string without bending reach everywherw on the tennis ball? No because half of it is obstructed by the curvature of the ball. Now imagine this in the flat earth model, the flat earth model states that the earth is 20 thousand miles across and the sun three miles up. to model the flat earth we use a cuts circular piece of cardboard 20 inches in diameter and get out a marble suspended it 3 inches in the air. Extend apiece of string from the marble to the disk. Can we reach everywhere on the disk without the string bending? Yes, we can. Even if it were a basketball court,and the marble was all the way at ground level, we could still touch every part of the court without bending it.

I really love this explination for its simplicity and ability for anyone to understand even though they might not have a scientific background.

 

[AmberRobot]

The sunset disproves the flat earth. Ask them to draw a diagram of the geometry of a sunset on a flat earth. Ask them to draw the path of the sun in the sky on a flat earth. Ask them why the sun can illuminate the undersides of clouds at sunset.

There are relatively easy measurements that can be made that show the Sun is significantly farther than the Moon (unless you think the Moon is fake, which it seems the flat earth model requires).

There are many more I could mention that don't require NASA or satellite observations.

The globe earth was proven and accepted long before NASA ever existed, like centuries.

 

[Agent K]

If you look at a flat earth map, a plane flying from Vancouver to Sydney that is past Hawaii is NOT flying in the correct direction.
View attachment 37786
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...-minor-injuries-after-air-canada-flight-hits/

Why do flat earthers put the Arctic in the center and not the Antarctic? Do they base this on some measurements?

 

[AmberRobot]

Why do flat earthers put the Arctic in the center and not the Antarctic? Do they base this on some measurements?

Because the math blows up in the Southern Hemisphere much worse and far fewer people live in the Southern Hemisphere than the Northern. So it's easier to fool more people with deceptive and disingenuous arguments that avoid using the math that would trivially prove them false.

 

[DavidB66]

Why do flat earthers put the Arctic in the center and not the Antarctic? Do they base this on some measurements?

It is partly a historical legacy. Back in the 1850s or so, when the Flat Earth movement began, Antarctica was completely unexplored, and it was plausible(ish) to argue that distances and areas in the southern hemisphere generally were uncertain. So people like Rowbotham and Gleason fixed on the idea that the inhabited earth was surrounded by a Great Ice Wall to the south. (I have seen it stated somewhere that Rowbotham 'borrowed' the idea from an earlier source.) Even in the mid-19th century the doctrine could only be sustained by cherry-picked and dubious data, like the claim that Captain Cook took three years to circumnavigate the southern ocean. More recent flat-earthers have generally continued with the doctrine because they don't have any better answer to the inevitable question: if the earth is flat, where is the edge?

 

[Agent K]

It is partly a historical legacy. Back in the 1850s or so, when the Flat Earth movement began, Antarctica was completely unexplored, and it was plausible(ish) to argue that distances and areas in the southern hemisphere generally were uncertain. So people like Rowbotham and Gleason fixed on the idea that the inhabited earth was surrounded by a Great Ice Wall to the south. (I have seen it stated somewhere that Rowbotham 'borrowed' the idea from an earlier source.) Even in the mid-19th century the doctrine could only be sustained by cherry-picked and dubious data, like the claim that Captain Cook took three years to circumnavigate the southern ocean. More recent flat-earthers have generally continued with the doctrine because they don't have any better answer to the inevitable question: if the earth is flat, where is the edge?

If the Earth is flat, then all the problems with dozens of different map projections are solved! The actual map of the flat earth should show all the correct distances and shapes and sizes and everything.

Edit: By the way, when do flat earthers think the Big Globe conspiracy started? In ancient Greece or Islamic Caliphate, or with Christopher Columbus?

 

[AmberRobot]

Edit: By the way, when do flat earthers think the Big Globe conspiracy started? In ancient Greece or Islamic Caliphate, or with Christopher Columbus?

Do you believe their grasp of history is any better than their grasp of mathematics?

 

[Agent K]

Do you believe their grasp of history is any better than their grasp of mathematics?

Do they think history books are also fake, and that historians and museums are in on the conspiracy? I know that some flat earthers deny the Holocaust, so it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[deirdre]

Let's try to get back on topic, gents.

 

[chrono117]

Let's try to get back on topic, gents.

I think you all have offered some great arguments.

 

[Chris Rippel]

In the early to mid 1980s, Ethiopia had a terrible drought. Starving Ethiopians were shown every night on TV news. I met a young man who claimed starving Ethiopians were "not real people, but cardboard figures put there by God to make white people feel guilty." At the time, I naively thought convincing someone the figures on the other side of the TV camera were real people would be easy. I was wrong. I failed. Afterward, it occurred to me that more facts and counter evidence to his claim are not likely to succeed because that guy would distort anything I said through his warped view of the world.

I think most Flat Earthers have a similar warped perspective about the world.

In the Youtube videos of flat earthers explaining why they are flat earthers, they often don't talk about the shape of the Earth, but rather the meaning and purpose of their lives. Science describes a big universe that makes flat earthers feel small, insignificant, and unloved. So they reject the globe for a giant terrarium proving someone loves them. And create online communities and conferences where they will be accepted and loved.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU


So I am skeptical we can convince many Flat Earthers the Earth is round because the shape of the Earth isn't really the point. It's about the meaning of their lives.

We can, however, convince potential Flat Earthers of the error of Flat Earthism.

And, for me, I have learned a lot about the Earth trying to figure out the errors of their claims.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Stefan Leahu]

And I don't mean that unkindly. I think all Christians (and other religions) have a varying degree to which they think certain things in holy books are literal, or figurative. There are many things in which a literal interpretation is in serious conflict with reality, so it's parsed differently. But there's almost always someone who takes it "more literally" than you do.

I'm biased on this, but literal christians are literal to a varying degree, depending on their church. My ex converted to evangelical christianity, and they praised themselves on being literal. Which meant they had hours upon hours of bible study to 'show the right way to see the bible'. They don't necessarily have a coherent view. They can be calvinists, as in believing everything is god's will, but still call people sinners and supposing they have a choice in the matter. In general, literal christians agree on a few things, including creationism, opposing birth control and, the newest trend, flat earth. What binds them is a view that the world is evil and against them, and this leads them to conspiracy theories, which generally makes them the worst of the bunch, if not just the loudest. Some of the stuff they believe in might not even be from the Bible, or might be a rough interpretation, but it's ok as long as it fits their story.

Fine. Now , as far as debunking FE without NASA , or, worse, without internet..There are a few things that make sense on globe earth, but not on FE. You can show her the phases of the moon, and how it coincides with its angle versus the sun. She will absolutely agree it is round, as that is visible even at new moon . You can show her the planets through a telescope. And you can show her how wrong the distances would be in the southern hemisphere, even on land. Sure, they get away by makling the continents look normal and filling the rest with water, but there are ways. If you can use internet, show her the daylight times in the southern hemisphere using webcams.On FE, you wouldn't have day in both South America and South Africa at the same time. The list can go on if you can use internet. The inverted moon in southern hemisphere, rough parallax calcullations using webcams, etc etc.

Edit: However, you have to bear in mind that a lot of these people are, how should I say it, almost pathologically ignorant. Perhaps that comes after years of religious dogma. I saw it often when they kept getting shunned by family&friends. Always a bible quote about how hard it will be for them, and the others are sinners who don't want to repent. It was never the other side's view, that most of the 'sinners' were in fact fairly normal people who just didn't want to deal with all the circus and the 'evangelizing' They already have their answers, and aren't really interested in anything except trying to convert you as well. Same can be said about us, ,except we are open to scientific proof. So, if one wants to believe in FE, they will always find a youtube video that gives them some half-brained answer to any issue that comes up. The key is to make them think a bit about the clues that are all around us, mainly in the night sky. But even so it might not be enough if they're well into the rabbit hole conspiracist mentality.

 

[Jesse3959]

I'm what most would call a literal Christian, but I'm not stuck on one translation and I certainly am not a flat earther. I seen the curve myself.

As to the "earth cannot be moved" - it was David extolling what God did. If any human thinks he can move the earth I'd like to see him try.
Besides, let's say God were to set the earth on a foundation, who's to say it had to be a particular kind of foundation? If the foundation's purpose was to be at the right distance to the sun, then an orbit around the sun is an excellent foundation.

Here are some possible ideas for showing people the curve in simple terms without invoking NASA or internet or authority.

If you can find a place where you can get 1000 feet or higher and can see mountains 100 miles away, you can sometimes find that you have to look down to see mountains that are 3 times taller than you. For example, I found a spot at 2250 feet and set up a water level with a 16 ft long tube full of water with red food coloring. This shows what level is, and it becomes clear that entire mountain ranges (that are like 6500 feet tall and 125 miles away!) are below eye-level.
https://imgur.com/a/WNYOmnl


"If the earth is flat, how come you have to look down to see mountains that are above you?"
Experienced flat earther's try to blame it on perspective of course, so I ask "Well what if the earth flooded 2250 feet deep, would the mountain still stick out of the water? Would I still have to look under water level to see it?"

Another spot is if there is 20 miles of water with a city on the other side. In my case, my observation point is 50 ft high and the city across the water is on a 53 foot high hill - but you can only see the sky scrapers because the water bulges up 66 feet between us. https://i.imgur.com/UGLqSe3.jpg

"If the earth is flat, how come the water is blocking view of the hill that the city is on? How can water that is 50 feet below us get between us? (us being observer and distant city.)"

It's best to have some distance above the water because close to the water there are often a lot of light bending inconsistencies that sometimes allow you to see farther around the curve than you would expect.

One more thing is to use a theodolite to measure the height of a distant mountain, but that requires the flat earther to know a little geometry, which usually they don't, with all respect to your kindly mother of course.

All the best,

Jesse