How can we interpret witness reports of buckling?

Jedo

Member
The following witness report of the collapse of 7 WTC, that included a mention of buckling, is taken from the blog https://undicisettembre.blogspot.de, recommended by @Oystein in another thread:

I felt quite confident that this is some valuable witness report that corroborated the NIST findings of buckling, like shown in this picture:


However, by checking the Oral histories on the N.Y. Times website, which luckily exists also in a compiled and searchable single pdf file on archive.org (maybe complied by someone in the truth movement?), I found several other references to buckling, however, this time only related to the collapse of the Twin Towers:


Supervisor Fire Marshall Brian Grogan
Firefighter Scott Holowach
Firefighter John Moribito

Firefighter Dean Beltrami
Now what makes me wonder is whether these reports all refer to the phenomenon of buckling as it is understood in the NIST reports.

The Merriam Webster Online Dictionary has the following definitions of the verb to buckle (which could make sense here):


So my questions are:
  1. Is there video or photographic evidence the Twin Towers had some buckling too?
  2. Can 'buckling' be understood in a more general way or is it always meant in the oral histories I've quoted in the way NIST uses it for describing the phenomenon how the columns or the external frame of WTC 7 buckled in the NIST simulations?
 

Jeffrey Orling

Senior Member
What strikes me as odd about these quotes is that they were able to identify the floor which "buckled" from close to the building at street level. Maybe they should have said 3/4 from the bottom or similar. These quotes sound like people talking and don't know how to describe what they saw.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
What strikes me as odd about these quotes is that they were able to identify the floor which "buckled" from close to the building at street level. Maybe they should have said 3/4 from the bottom or similar. These quotes sound like people talking and don't know how to describe what they saw.
Only one of those interviews mentions a specific floor. The interview was five weeks later, and he may well have incorporated the videos and descriptions from the constant TV coverage into his account.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So my questions are:
  1. Is there video or photographic evidence the Twin Towers had some buckling too?
  2. Can 'buckling' be understood in a more general way or is it always meant in the oral histories I've quoted in the way NIST uses it for describing the phenomenon how the columns or the external frame of WTC 7 buckled in the NIST simulations?
1. Just the inward buckling/bending. Seen at 1:20 here:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJPYTVjxug


2. People are going to use "buckling" to mean a range of things. It think in the context of the towers it's more used as a descriptor for sudden loss of support. It's not a common everyday word, and most people will encounter it in the semi-figurative usage of a person collapsing, "their knees buckled" — i.e. a sudden loss of support.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Even in a structural context, there's two very distinct types of buckling. There's slender column buckling, which in the WTC case would happen over several floors. Then there's local buckling, which a shorter section of a box column might experience.
squidgedColumnBIG.jpg


What you mostly see in the collapse of the towers is the exterior sections coming apart at the joins. Kind of bucking like a knee does.
 
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