GMO conspiracy theories

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Just because someone says something is the worst, doesn't make it so. Take the BP blowout, for example. It was larger than the Ixtoc blow out of 1979, but the damage it did was a fraction of Ixtoc's. Some of that was luck, some the well location, and some improved technology.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Just because someone says something is the worst, doesn't make it so.
Of course, but the fact remains there's absolutely no way of yet estimating the damage the Fukushima incident will do, as the crisis is still ongoing, with new and very serious complications arising, such as the recent discovery groundwater is leaking into the plant and being highly contaminated at an incredibly alarming rate. Clear-cutting forests on an Island-nation to make room for storage tanks of highly radioactive water is indicative to me of the problem being FAR more serious than mainstream media (which has hardly mentioned it in a year) lets on... especially considering there's no solid forecast as to when all this radioactive waste-water is going to stop piling up. Some estimates put it at a decade. Thus making any claim about the impact of Fukushima being lesser than that of Chernobyl, a crisis which has been resolved for some time (though the fallout persists to this day), is either suggestive of incredible powers of prescience or purely groundless presumption.

Our dependance on, or perhaps more accurately our fetish with Nuclear energy is akin to me to a kid obsessed with setting fires. Sure, fires are great: keep you warm, pretty to look at, fun to poke... but if a kid who's too young to really understand them makes enough of them, odds that the house will burn down are going to increase and increase. We don't understand how to control radiation well enough yet so far as I'm concerned to be risking what we're risking. What if there was a truly major global catastrophe, like an asteroid event or a sudden outbreak of serious quakes, and many nuclear power plants were destroyed or left to melt down? If something like that happened sooner rather than later, what in the world could we possibly do about it, other than watch the dead-zones spread?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I thought I should point this out, but there is some problems with scales in this link.

A Bq/Kg does not equal Bq/m2. Are you telling me a square meter of earth weights approximately 1 kilogram? That is laughable. Since the author of this blog cannot see the difference, once can easily discredit anything said there quickly. Doses in Belarus/Ukraine are far far higher than in any area of Japan in the exclusion zones.

No one said Bq/Kg equals Bq/m2. Read it again.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Supreme Court sides with Monsanto in major patent case
more:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...biotechnology-soybeans-supreme-court/2116333/

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court usually isn't friendly toward questionable patents, but it came down overwhelmingly on the side of agribusiness giant Monsanto Monday in a case that's bound to resonate throughout the biotechnology industry.

The court ruled unanimously that an Indiana farmer violated Monsanto's patent on genetically modified soybeans when he culled some from a grain elevator and used them to replant his own crop in future years.

"If simple copying were a protected use, a patent would plummet in value after the first sale of the first item containing the invention," Justice Elena Kagan ruled in a short 10-page opinion. "The undiluted patent monopoly, it might be said, would extend not for 20 years as the Patent Act promises, but for only one transaction. And that would result in less incentive for innovation than Congress wanted."

=====================================
Monsanto's Roundup-Ready patent expires next year. They are fighting for the whole patent system, for everyone, against those who would tear it down opening up the door for knock-off operations. Bully for them!
Jay
 

JonJson

Active Member
They are fighting for the whole patent system, for everyone, against those who would tear it down opening up the door for knock-off operations. Bully for them!
Jay

Don't kid yourself they are fighting for their corporate profits they are not fighting for everyone.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Monsanto's Roundup-Ready patent expires next year. They are fighting for the whole patent system, for everyone, against those who would tear it down opening up the door for knock-off operations. Bully for them!
lolololol.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.

I read the study here:
http://gmoevidence.com/dr-mezzomo-bt-toxins-toxic-to-blood-of-mice/

This was what sounds like an "overdose" test, using bacterial spores not GMO food, using a small sample of six mice.

Using oral 'gavage' (force-feeding), six mice were fed distilled water containing the actual BT spores(not the corn) at doses of either 27 mg/kg, 136 mg/kg, or 270 mg/kg.
They had previously found that exposure to more than 270 mg/kg caused mouse death.

The lower dose caused decreased red blood count or hemoglobin(anemia).
The mice didn't get leukemia, they had increased white blood cell count.
Even at the highest dose, there was no genetic damage using the micronucleus test
I don't consider myself qualified to interpret more.
The authors never used the phrase "Linked to Leukemia", which is cancer, so bogus reporting has already started.
I'm sure the anti-GMO propagandists will go wild over this and conflate what the paper actually says into calls for immediate bans.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
One of the problems that I see with many of the 'studies' done on GM foods or even other food items, is that in most of them they ONLY feed the 'target' food, instead of a balanced diet. How much of the issues they find are because of that?

When compared to people, it is even worse. We don't eat only corn or beef or soft drinks. We have some popcorn at the theater with a soft drink, then stop for a burger and fries and a beer. We may had had corn on the cob and hot dogs at a cook out. We go out to eat and have a spinach salad, a t bone, and a loaded baked potato. Even those that don't follow the food guidelines, eat a variety of foods. It is not ALL the same. Most likely the variety of potato in those fries and in that baked potato is not the same. The source of the corn sugar that is in the Pepsi you get at the theater and the Dr Pepper you had at the picnic are not the same. Variety is important.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
One of the problems that I see with many of the 'studies' done on GM foods or even other food items, is that in most of them they ONLY feed the 'target' food, instead of a balanced diet. How much of the issues they find are because of that?

The mice were allowed their normal food and drink, though it didn't say if they could eat anything for the seven days before they were killed with ketamine and their blood sucked out.
I imagine those given the near-lethal dose of 270 mg/kg didn't have a very good appetite!

I weigh about 12 stone, so if I were participating in the study at that rate my dose would be 20,500 mg of bacterial spores. :p
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
http://esciencecentral.org/journals/JHTD/JHTD-1-104.php?aid=11822?aid=11822

It has been reported that Cry toxins exert their toxicity when activated at alkaline pH of the digestive tract of susceptible larvae, and, because the physiology of the mammalian digestive system does not allow their activation, and no known specific receptors in mammalian intestinal cells have been reported, the toxicity these MCAs to mammals would negligible [8,22,23]. However, our study demonstrated that Bt spore-crystals genetically modified to express individually Cry1Aa, Cry1Ab, Cry1Ac or Cry2A induced hematotoxicity, particularly to the erythroid lineage. This finding corroborates literature that demonstrated that alkali-solubilized Bt spore-crystals caused in vitro hemolysis in cell lines of rat, mouse, sheep, horse, and human erythrocytes and suggested that the plasma membrane of susceptible cells (erythrocytes, in this case) may be the primary target for these toxins [33].

Can someone with a lot more knowledge on this explain this better please?
I get the first bold part, does the second bold part mean they simulated digestion in an alkaline solution before giving it to test subjects?

 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
http://esciencecentral.org/journals/JHTD/JHTD-1-104.php?aid=11822?aid=11822

However, our study demonstrated that Bt spore-crystals genetically modified to express individually Cry1Aa, Cry1Ab, Cry1Ac or Cry2A induced hematotoxicity, particularly to the erythroid lineage. This finding corroborates literature that demonstrated that alkali-solubilized Bt spore-crystals caused [/FONT][/COLOR]in vitro hemolysis in cell lines of rat, mouse, sheep, horse, and human erythrocytes and suggested that the plasma membrane of susceptible cells (erythrocytes, in this case) may be the primary target for these toxins [33].

Can someone with a lot more knowledge on this explain this better please?
I get the first bold part, does the second bold part mean they simulated digestion in an alkaline solution before giving it to test subjects?

Erythroids are red blood cells, the erythroid lineage I think are RBC's that are forming in the bone marrow. So, the research showed that the doses of bacterial spores given were toxic to the forming cells in the marrow.

Hemolysis is the rupturing of blood cells. Previous research had shown that in '"in vitro" (test tubes) the spores were able to caused hymolysis (red blood cell rupture) to some extent, if they were made soluble in alkaline conditions. The authors thought that the "plasma membranes" (cell walls) were susceptible.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
So they only showed the toxins do harm if put directly into the cell but still cannot be absorbed through the normal method of ingestion?

Edit: Sorry I'm just confused on how they got the cry to be taken into the blood through ingestion.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
But in humans we have a very acid environment in our digestive system. It is acid to help protect us from many things.

I remember when I was taking microbiology and realized that many bacteria can't survive temps over 100 degrees, so fever is protective when it is that low. It changed how I treated a low fever in both me and my dogs.

I was looking up rabies in Opossums the other day, since I seem to have one living in my yard. It seems that their body temp is too low for the rabies virus to survive in them.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Are the cry that were tested actually being used in any Bt crops currently for mammalian consumption?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
The spores are not in any GM food.

I am guessing the alkaline digestive system is why it works in caterpillers and is safe for everything else.

I am not sure, but I think BT itself can be used on even organic crops.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I am sure you are correct on that. I now wonder what 'Cry1Aa, Cry1Ab, Cry1Ac or Cry2A' are ? Are they the toxins that kill the caterpillers?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I'm guessing Bt used in organic farming hasn't been genetically modified.

Yes, I was using powdered BT spores on organic crops in the 1980's, it s certified for organic farming. Works well except at later stages on larger caterpillars. It is certified organic biological warfare.

As I understand it, the cry proteins are expressed at different rates in the plant. For instance, for corn the target pest is european corn borers, you may have seen "wormy" corn. The moth adult lays eggs on the undersides of the leaves, and the larva attack the leaves and eventually the ears. You would not necessarily want the cry to be expressed in the corn grain itself, you would want most or even all of it to be expressed in green tissues like leaves or ear husks to hurt the worms before they get into the ears. I believe this is done but don't know the exact rate of expression in various parts of the corn.

If there is significantly less in the ears of corn, it would make it less likely that anything eating the grain would ingest the cry.

There are many parallels in nature where one part of the plant, tomatoes, for instance are quite edible while the rest of the plant is rather toxic.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Even things like the green skin on potatoes is toxic.

Isn't it the BT corn that has stronger stalks? I remember an article about the cut stalks piercing tractor tires. If so, that would make me think that they are having it expressed in the stems and leaves, instead of the corn itself.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
So GM Bt crops don't produce the Bt spore-crystals but directly produce the cry?

Yes. You can buy the spore which does produce cry, but the GMO corn has a gene inserted which allows the plant to make the worms cry. Don't know about stronger stalks, but the worms can make stalks weak and allow corn to lodge if they attack the stalk. Very young corn (even non-GMO)concentrates other natural toxins and isn't badly affected by worms. Maybe if you ate young corn stalks their toxins would give you leukemia?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
I'm just confused on how the cry produced by GM Bt crops is absorbed into the blood through ingestion. Since mammals don't have insect receptors in their guts and the cry only activate in an alkaline (not acidic like mammals) environment. Is the study suggesting this has changed? Does the plant activate the toxins or does the worms alkaline gut?

All you need to do is follow the worms!
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I am a fellow Coca Cola addict
Same. Its a stated goal of coke to have more people drinking their product than they do water. They're succeeding... at least in my case. >.>

Worst part of it has to be that the stuff is only good for about 5 minutes after the can/bottle cracks, then it loses its fizz and you become aware of what a noxious, syrupy, putrid substance it really is at its heart. One of my great shames is my willingness to suck can after can of that crap down.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Same. Its a stated goal of coke to have more people drinking their product than they do water. They're succeeding... at least in my case. >.>

Worst part of it has to be that the stuff is only good for about 5 minutes after the can/bottle cracks, then it loses its fizz and you become aware of what a noxious, syrupy, putrid substance it really is at its heart. One of my great shames is my willingness to suck can after can of that crap down.
Oh God I know what you mean. I can drink two liters on a hot day, when I'm beyond the gaze of my wife.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I can easily do 3-6 cans a day, and I try to drink more water than Coke. When I am on my Adderal for ADD, I drink less Coke.

Of course I can down 2 cans and go to sleep in 15 min.
 

RustyShackleford

New Member
I read the study here:
http://gmoevidence.com/dr-mezzomo-bt-toxins-toxic-to-blood-of-mice/

This was what sounds like an "overdose" test, using bacterial spores not GMO food, using a small sample of six mice.

Using oral 'gavage' (force-feeding), six mice were fed distilled water containing the actual BT spores(not the corn) at doses of either 27 mg/kg, 136 mg/kg, or 270 mg/kg.
They had previously found that exposure to more than 270 mg/kg caused mouse death.

The lower dose caused decreased red blood count or hemoglobin(anemia).
The mice didn't get leukemia, they had increased white blood cell count.
Even at the highest dose, there was no genetic damage using the micronucleus test
I don't consider myself qualified to interpret more.
The authors never used the phrase "Linked to Leukemia", which is cancer, so bogus reporting has already started.
I'm sure the anti-GMO propagandists will go wild over this and conflate what the paper actually says into calls for immediate bans.
I am no expert on the subject but doesn't this still point to toxicity?
 
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