# Global Skywatch Conference Call with Dane Wigington, Nov 2012

Discussion in 'Contrails and Chemtrails' started by Jay Reynolds, Nov 26, 2012.

1. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

The conversation began normally enough. Russ Tanner droned on about ideas for activism.
He says they plan to use "Fear Based Marketing" to reach their goal.

Dane Wigington said that chemtrails/geoengineering was more of a threat than thermonuclear annihilation.
He expects the end won't be too far off.
He has spent over $50,000 on chemtrails so far. He also claims that "spraying" started sixty years ago and any contrails seen now, even those that dissipate are probably spraying. Russ Tanner agrees, even non-persistent contrails are spraying, none of the others had a problem with that claim. He says a lawsuit is being filed against Shasta County, no details, he made that claim over a year ago. He admits that "spraying is unprovable", but thinks the courts are rigged anyways. He described Michael J. Murphy as "living in a tent in Hawaii", very frugally, but in need of funds regularly, maybe$500.00/ month.
He also wants funds to support Yvonne Nachtigal who he says runs geoengineeringwatch.org. I think he is in charge now.

Murphy has a lawyer named Larry Becraft, a bottom of the barrel "tax protestor" lawyer, to set up a non-profit to be called The International Coalition For Geoengineering Education. I suppose this cuts all ties to Murphy's former Co-producer G. Edward Griffin who is no longer mentioned by Murphy in interviews.

Neither Geoengineeringwatch.org or Global Skywatch have had success raising funds. Global Skywatch reports $100.00 received selling bumper stickers. In order to raise funds, Russ Tanner, who builds websites for vitamin and herb sellers says that he will set up any individual with a 500 page website and supply products from "Nature's Sunshine" if part of the profits go towards the perrsonal expenses of Michael J. Murphy and Yvonne Nachtigal who work 24/7/365 for chemtrails. Yvonne has had recent brain surgery, and Michael is in Hawaii. The attorney "Lexy/Lexie?" Hunter spoke at length about how she is consulting a "Dr. Bill Deagle" for a new lawsuit. She says that he has "treated the pilots who fly the sprayplanes". Good luck with that........ Hunter also knows for sure that John Holdren is in charge of the spraying, since all environmental oversight was removed from Congress, whatever that means. I asked about their change in definition of a chemtrail from just the persistent contrails to any contrail at all being "spraying". When I pressed the argument, I was disconnected. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Edit by Mick West, 2013-07-02]: I'm editing this post and the thread title since Wigington's word may have been referring to something else The following is the initial paragraph from this post: This was very hard to hear, but it happened. Someone made a suggestion that funds be used to buy planes to protect our airspace and blow those planes out of the sky", Dane Wigington said, "We all feel that way." [URL='https://www.metabunk.org/posts/20478https://www.metabunk.org/posts/20478[/URL] Absent a recording, and given Dane's striden denials, there is not enough to insinuate that Dane was agreeing with shooting down planes. As far as I know Dane has never suggested anything like this, and seems like a peaceful, if rather fixed-minded, person Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013 2. ### Mick WestAdministratorStaff Member Did he actually say that (fear based)? That's usually how skeptics describe the marketing of the promoters, so it's kind of interesting to hear them use the term themselves. After speaking briefly with Dane at the conference, I think he basically believes that the Arctic Methane Emergency Group is either correct, or that people in power believe they are correct. So in his mind there's this huge motivation for the PTB to perform geoengineering. It was interesting, as he seemed fully aware of the problems of global climate change, and yet violently opposed to what he though were covert measures to combat it. Unfortunately he failed to recognize that most climate engineers agree with him (except for the "it's currently happening" bit). Last edited: Nov 20, 2013 3. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member Russ Tanner certainly did say that. An exact quote. Yes, he mentioned something like "methane eruption". It was all surreal and unexpected. They all sound quite mad. • Like x 1 4. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member One other particularly bizarre exchange I had during the call was when I asked if Global Skywatch was going to stick with this statement by Russ Tanner: Dane Wigington said he absolutely agrees! The man who has spent$50,000 fighting chemtrails told me the main reason why he considers any contrail at all to be evidence of spraying is that contrails only form when air temperature is colder than -70 celsius, and he said that it hardly ever gets that cold at flight altitudes. And of course, they have been doing it for sixty years so any photos from that far back are just more evidence of spraying....

This is the leadership of the chemtrails movement, a self-proclaimed 'climate researcher'.
Of course he is quite wrong, about the temperature. The correct answer is both -40F or -40C.
5. ### Fred259New Member

Why not look at this differently folks. A very small minority of people who are behind this nonsense are frankly systemically upset.

They started with aircraft spraying, then it was tankers, then Morgellons (whatever that is) now its shoot-down. Its like a self propagating storm. They have to keep the deception alive.

Most normal people start investigating and perhaps arrive at a site like this. I’m seriously impressed at the number of visitors to Contrail Science and this forum. These visitors arrive and perhaps have a look around and go away feeling much more relaxed about the whole subject. This forum brings the subject into prospective.

You are winning this argument. Its really only about common sense and so visitors take great comfort from that. However a small minority feel cheated and deceived. Its only human nature and so the small minority then go back and tell Kerry Cassidy for example exactly what they think of her. Cassidy in turn then responds with even more outrageous comments and I would suggest that this shoot-down nonsense is part of that process.
6. ### FreiZeitGeistSenior Member

This claim is easy to debunk. Just ask a canadian (or Siberian) what happens if you blow out a cup of boiling water at winter-times at temperatures -40°F or -40°C (both temperature-scales are equal at this point)

This happens:

• Like x 3

The -70 thing originates with William Thomas, who incorrectly converted -40C to -70F (it's actually -40F) in his "Chemtrails Confirmed" book, and it's propagated over the years, evidently now down to -70C (-94F)

I explained this to him in person a few months ago, he seemed quite concerned about it, realizing he'd got it wrong for ten years.
• Like x 5
8. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

I have had a few hours to think about what these folks said, not directly related to the shoot down stuff. It seems to me that there is some factionalization going on. After admitting that there is no evidence for chemtrails, Rosalind Peterson is probably on the way out. The power grab is on, and last night's conference call was perhaps the beggining.

Quite a bit of talk by Russ Tanner and Dane Wigington about having two main portals:
geoengineeringwatch.org
and
GlobalSkywatch.com

They want people to build other websites or blogs to feed traffic into the above central sites. The central sites will feed content back to the sub-sites.
They approached the subject by telling the group that they wanted a Big Tent approach where people with "different persuations" would be free to express themselves. But here's the rub:

It is basically a top-down model, command and control from Tanner and Wigington, with an illusion for the sub-site owners of having "their own sites".
I guarantee them that Russ will be in charge, he is egomaniacal/delusional, in my opinion.

So far as Tanner and Wigington as a combination, they are an interesting pair. They both seem to have stuck on the extreme idea that even non-persistent contrails are evidence of spraying. Tanner's claim that no pilot he spoke to had ever seen a contrail is so completely bizarre, I doubt that he will get many followers, but we will see. He certainly hasn't been able to show even one of those of pilots yet, and how long the believers will let him get away with that claim is really the only question.

Turns out, Russ Tanner says Global Warming is a scam, while Dane Wigington says that the world is in imminent danger from Global Warming........Strange bedfellows indeed!
• Like x 2
9. ### FreiZeitGeistSenior Member

I recognized that the German leading Chemtrail-Activist "Bürgerinitiative sauberer Himmel" (Citizen-Movement "clear Sky") is actually more and more argumenting with articles from Geoengineeringwatch. ... and they also have their own "Contrails are impossible"-Claims wich they spride a lot into the german Chemtrail-Scene and mention it by any chance.

Please copy this link: www.sauberer-himmel.de/2012/07/26/warum-die-vielen-streifen-am-himmel-keine-kondensstreifen-sind/ into the clipboard. Google for it and click then to "translate" ... they argue much the same way as William Thomas did, but not with temperature, but with humidity. For them, Relative Humidity over 100% are absolutly rare in higher altitudes. They pick up some real scientific papers, for exapmple from the german Air-and-space-organisation DLR and cherry-picking one or two sentences out of a 100-pages-paper. ignoring the whole rest of this articles...

As German with a bit scientific background, i can say it´s totally nonsense what they conclude from this selected parts from the linked papers, but my english skills are not good enogth to tell you why. Sorry for that...

But there is an interesting conformity between these strategies to argue by our "Chemtrails-Leading-Movement" and "Geoengineeringwatch".

And as i wrote - saubererHimmel doesn´t only argue in the same manner, they also refer much more to Geoengineeringwatch in the last times...
• Like x 1

11. ### Pete TarSenior Member

Why were you part of a conference call on chemtrail awareness strategy, or was it an open web-forum thing?
12. ### TWCobraSenior Member

I wrote to Russ Tanner a couple of weeks ago about his claim that airline pilots had contacted him to thank him for his stand. They were all phone calls apparently so no paper trail. i replied thus..,

Ok, can I tell you that I have been flying for 34 years, 25 years as an airline pilot and have seen them since I was a kid. I fly in what you would call a chemtrail with no ill effects, odors or anything else. I can show you a video of me doing precisely that if you like.
You haven't quoted any names of these pilots, I am happy for you to quote my name with the above quote.

Or does the fact that what I say conflicting with your beliefs disqualify me from being quoted?

The response was interesting and reveals a one dimensional attitude;

That is the mindset we are dealing with. What I said conflicted with his beliefs, therefore I must be lying. No middle ground... or inquiry... "well thats interesting"... none of that. I simply must be lying.
• Like x 7
13. ### HappyMondayModeratorStaff Member

The chosen few...

Quoth Aaronovitch in Voodoo Histories -

"They also understand what everybody else doesn't, what everybody else would like to deny. They are the lonely custodians of the truth..."
• Like x 1
14. ### Noble1965New MemberBanned

Which is why it's kinda silly to "debate" these people. I think the best we can do is post the truth where they post their lies and hope that anyone on the fence has enough sense to properly research this subject...not just google "chemtrails" and accept everything they find as truth.

I think the fact that EVERY SINGLE bit of "evidence" the chemtrail advocates come up with is easily debunked is very telling. But, people like Russ Tanner have already been indoctrinated. There is NO WAY he will ever admit he is mistaken. He has too much invested.

I remember going to some site he runs...it's a snake oil site...and I posted a polite rebuttal to one of his claims and immediately, he posted my IP, where I worked, and the name I gave as my real name, in some effort to sick his minions onto me.

The guy is more than unreasonable.
• Like x 3
15. ### George BExtinct but not forgotten Staff MemberStaff Member

His response was totally inappropriate . . . there is no way to justify his reaction . . . the truth can handle honest debate and contribution from legitimate sources of all types . . .
16. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

The prime function of the chemtrails movement, as with all cults, is to maintain and increase membership.
To do this they must constantly recruit new fodder to make up for attrition.

Even the legal battles they spoke about were not at all designed to win a case, they simply want publicity and to make a show to give the impression that there is substance and numbers, just an illusion, and they know it. That is why Dane Wigington stated that all of their cases are "unprovable".

They aren't at all looking at solving any mysteries anymore. They assume they know enough and no more investigation is needed.
This is demonstrated by a total lack of interest in getting down to the meat of the matter, a real resolution.
The whole thing about a 'movement' is motion, not solution.
The model they are using is a Pyramid Scheme, a top=>down approach in which members function as the collective to support the upstream.
The goals discussed in this meeting were increasing membership and sending funds upstream for the personal use of Michael Murphy and Yvonne Nachtigal.

Look at it this way.
Everybody has seen how crimes are solved and a conclusion is reached in the real world.
From Sherlock Holmes to Miss Marple to 'Law and Order:Criminal Intent', there are 24 hour channels of this stuff, our whole lives.
I sent my children to Crime Scene Investigation summer camp to develop critical thinking skills. Kids do this.
Identify the crime. Collect evidence. Establish motive. Identify suspect. Make the case down to a group or individual. Present the case.

What part are they missing, totally?

Even if they assume they have real evidence(which Wigington already knows is "unprovable"), they haven't closed the case past the suspect level.
Every part of the effort has been to establish, maintain, and grow the Borg Collective.
Even the 'Chemtrails Project', they collected samples nationwide, but where is the analysis for the evidence?
None of that was designed to solve anything, it was all about creating 'buzz' and 'awareness'.

They avoid anlayzing the evidence because to do so would reveal it's flaws.

They avoid making the case beyond the suspect level because that is all conspiracy theories do
.
• Like x 3

Tanner is extremely unreasonable, he makes two very unique claims that really should demonstrate that he does not know what he is talking about:

1) The smaller a particle, the faster it will fall, so the "nano" particles of metal in chemtrails fall really fast.
2) He's never seen a plane leave a contrail, even a short non-persistent trail.

The first is just bad physics. But the second flies in the face of the experience of 99% of chemtrail believers - who all repeat the mantra "normal contrails last a few minutes at most".

So yes, debating Tanner is no going to do anything to Tanner - he seem totally resistent to science. However he's very glib, very articulate, he has a detailed web-site, and he has followers. What he says still needs to be countered. I would hope that pointing out that the basis of his theory (no normal trails at all) is actually something the reader already believes to be false, then that might cause then to question some of the other things he says.

(and if there's any chemtrail theorist reading this: I'm not saying that if he gets one thing wrong then everything he says is wrong. That's a fallacy. I'm saying that if he gets some things REALLY wrong, then it's probably an indication that you need to at least independently verify the other things he says.)
• Like x 1

I think they are actually even further back in the CSI chain than you describe. When you arrive at a crime scene and there's a dead body with gunshot wounds to the head, then you know there's a crime that has been committed. You've identified the crime. The rest is not figuring out if a crime was committed, it's figuring out who did it.

The chemtrail believers think they are at the "make the case" stage. But they haven't even got to the first stage. They have not identified the crime - i.e. they have not even given sufficient cause to START the investigation.

So there's a huge disconnect with most of them. They think that it's obvious that a crime has been committed, and so move on to the "what" and the "why" and the "who", and entirely skip the "are they spraying" stage, which, if they really wanted to make a case, is where they should focus all their efforts. Where's the body?
• Like x 3
19. ### George BExtinct but not forgotten Staff MemberStaff Member

Good analogy . . . it is a murder investigation without a body . . . so maybe it is more of a missing persons inquiry . . . I sort of like that !! The assumption is there is evidence because they see persistent trails . . .
• Like x 1

More like a missing person inquiry for some guy they kind of remember from high school, but their classmates do not, and their evidence so far is that he was not at the 20 year reunion party.
• Like x 3
21. ### George BExtinct but not forgotten Staff MemberStaff Member

LoL!!! Maybe to you but they heard he was being chased by organized crime and could be in the witness protrction program and someone thought they saw him at the Walmart last Tuesday . . .
22. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

I agree, but to them, the visual counts as evidence, and yes, it really is just an observation from which they make a hypothesis.

They proceed to test their hypothesis(get ground level samples)
and make conclusions:
What-spraying occurred(what was found on the ground came from the sky)
Why- a plethora of new hypotheses

But my point is that, even if they get this far, they must realize the next step would be Who(the suspect).
They are leaving it right there. Everything remains vague at that point, except for pointing at identifiable people like David Keith.

They are leaving it right there because the whole point of conspiracy theories isn't to finalize the connections or to close the case, they remain allegations.
Conspiracy theories remain theoretical because the believers short circuit the logic tree at various points and never close the case.

The believers, as individuals, need to be shown this. They may not get it from the leadership.
Michael J. Murphy has already been questioned by his people about when he will reveal the Who In The World Is Spraying. He knows that he must respond eventually.

He said, "It might be my last film." The inference is his excuse, he wants sympathy, he needs an excuse for why in the world he is taking years to close the case.
He is trying to find a way to short-circuit the process and avoid closing the case because it holds peril for him.

If he names names he becomes liable for defamation, he has gotten close already with David Keith and some others.
If he identifies the airplanes, which are obviously commercial carriers, the same defamation plus his case if pressed to a unique specific single aircraft will show no equipment.

To defeat him we need to either force his hand so that he leaps to far and gets in trouble or get the membership to do the job for him and thus close the case.

Leaving it in his hands gives him a way out, which will be another movie like WHYWATS which actually contained absolutely nothing NEW, just rehashed WITWATS with some new unsupported accusations.
• Like x 2
23. ### SR1419Senior Member

I tried to counter his "any contrail is extremely rare" meme once by showing him numerous videos of commercial aircraft leaving contrails (dissipating and persisting) from the perspective of other aircraft- so, they were really quite close and you could clearly identify them as commercial planes.

His response was that they were military planes disguised to look like commercial planes.

Its a mindset that is really quite fascinating, frustrating and sad all at once...just complete and utter denial in the face of clear evidence to the opposite of his beliefs.

Not to make it personal but it makes me wonder if he is equally obstinate in the face of other realities in his life.
• Like x 1
24. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

Something has already made him expect that he will be judged mentally ill, he is warning others about that, at least.
Something put that into his mind. On his web page it sounds at first like a general discussion, but look closer and you will see he is describing himself.
Perhaps he has had contact with the mental health system?

I wouldn't want to get too personal with this, and suggesting that it might be in his head is only going to reinforce his idea that I'm "one of them" trying to get people to think he's crazy, but his articulate and well-spoken expositions of his nonsensical case reminds me of both the TI people (particularly John Allman) and the Morgellons people. Both groups of people often seem very normal, quite sensible, intelligent, good listeners, well spoken and usually fairly ordinary people getting on with normal life. But then they have this one idea that they won't let go off, even when it's clearly demonstrated to be wrong.
26. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

In the conference call, Russ made some comments about the business he is in, which was interesting to me. He is a distributor of "Natures Sunshine" supplements.

He, along with his SO partner Laura, is also a professional in the business of providing a 3rd party service for supplement manufacturers. The way he described it, supplement manufacturers are restricted on the claims they can make. They can, however, let 3rd parties make claims they cannot. This is one of the reasons why many of the supplement makers don't market their products directly and keep all the profit. They need the ability to accomplish Fear Based Marketing through a technically separate entity, a distributor which canmake claims which they cannot, testimonials and vague inferences of efficacy.

Russ offers this service: http://hartonweb.com/AboutUs.html which provides carefully selected (dis?)information designed to support some of the claims that the manufacturers cannot make. Of course, the information Hartonweb provides will exclude any references which conflict with the prime goal, to sell a product. If a study comes out which contradicts one which may have shown efficacy, that reference will certainly not appear on the site.

Russ has experience as a mercenary. He makes his living this way for the supplement industry.

If Russ gets his way, he will be using this model for chemtrails.

Geoengineeringwatch.org will do the work of hartonweb and provide content for the sub-sites, donations buttons and products will be on those sites to be sold in a Fear Based Marketing program to generate cash and bunk and feed new members into the up-line. I don't know if it will work, but he is offering this up as his vision of how it might work.
• Like x 2

Nature's Sunshine is a Multi Level Marketing company. Basically it's pyramid selling, where you try to make money by selling overpriced and inefficacious stuff to your friends and relatives, but really relies on getting you to sign up other people "downstream" to perpetuate the pyramid via subscriptions and selling stuff like their product guides.
28. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

Maybe you are just emphasizing the way it works, but my point is that Tanner does more than that. He is already in the business beyond the multilevel part, beyond the pyramid. As the downline passes money up to the top of the pyramid, Tanner's job is to pass back down the line more bunk they can use to close the sale.

Tanner's Hartonweb works as a 3rd party which sells licensed information compilations which are then sold to the lower level distributors. Tanner and Laura produce bunk for the industry. To them, being disinformationalists is not something new, they are already in the business of Fear Based Marketing products designed to persuade.

For Russ, making a Globalskywatch website pyramid work the way of the other pyramids do isn't much different than what he already does.
• Like x 1

I was trying to make the point that he was not really offering a service for the manufacturers, but to the the pyramid of distributors.

Anyway, yes, they are selling things with bunk one way or another. An interesting question is how much Tanner actually believes of his own bunk. He seems to me like he 100% believes his "no normal contrails" theory - as it's really to ridiculous to be credible, and hence can't really be that effective as a sales tool.
30. ### Ross MarsdenSenior Member

Articulate he may be, but he can't spell "troll".
http://globalskywatch.com/terms-of-service.html
31. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

It turns out that "Lexie" Hunter, who was described as an attorney, is only a paralegal. Educated in private schools in the US and Europe, it seems. She has bought into the punk's Chemtrail Forecast, so the million dollar education was a waste.
Tanner is promoting it as well.

Here is Dane Wigington's latest, basically an appeal to increase the Borg Collective:
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/so-how-do-we-stop-the-spraying/

You need to know about your adversary. Tanner and Wigington will host another call and invite the public to participate. Listeners will gain insight into what they plan and how they think. They are more open when talking amongst themselves.
http://globalskywatch.com/go/index.html

You may have to watch the Global skywatch facebook page as the call-in number and access code is liable to change at the last minute.

-how will they handle the dichotomy between geoengineeringwatch.org which promotes global warming and Tanner's site which calls it a hoax?
-how will they deal with debunkers at contrailscience and metabunk?
-will they ever create a concise and accurate definition of chemtrails?
-will major decisions of the group be put to a vote, or are the foundational beliefs simply up to the beholder?
-what are the implications of presenting mixed messages?
-at what point will the group reject the calls for violence seen on twitter, video comments, and facebook?
-is it generally held that identifiable commercial planes are making chemtrails?
32. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

I need someone to help listen to confirm what is said here:

Next Date: Monday, December 3rd, 2012, 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific
Phone #: 559-726-1300 Access Code: 156230
Agenda: http://GlobalSkywatch.com/go
33. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

Clifford Carnicom from the Carnicom Institute will be joining us on this week's Global Skywatch phone conference. We will cover our agenda very quickly and then have a discussion with Clifford about the work he does and the discoveries he's made. This will be followed by a question and answer session. All are welcome to attend.Time: Monday, December 10th, 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific
Call In Number: 559-726-1300 Access Code: 156230
Conference Call Webpage: GlobalSkywatch.com/go
34. ### HappyMondayModeratorStaff Member

Is anybody going to listen in with you Jay?
35. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

I is not possible for me to listen as I am not on terra firma. This is one of very few times I have heard Carnicom being publicly available, a golden opportunity to ask why he hasn't ever shown a single lab test, or if he uses an autoclave to prepare culture medium, that sort of thing, if anyone is interested.
36. ### HappyMondayModeratorStaff Member

Somebody definitely should!
37. ### Steve FunkSenior Member

I see that the link has an option to listen to previous conference calls. I wonder if it would be a violation of FCC rules if someone rerecorded or embedded an already recorded conversation.

Listening to this now. He basically says he does not trust labs, and he could not afford proper lab equipment.

I don't think there are more than a handful of people listening, mostly Morgellons sufferers. He tried to keep away from the the Morgellons topic at first.

Interesting, he just said "the general public is subject to the type of issues that [Morgellons Sufferers] have". Probably saying that everyone has Morgellons. But the alternative interpretation is that Morgellons is mostly about interpretation of symptoms, not an actual condition.

He's getting back to his old "the EPA did not test my sample in 1999" claim.

They did not test it because that's not what they do.
40. ### Jay ReynoldsSenior Member

Carnicom sent a box of unidentified stuff (probably spiderwebs) to the EPA director's office.

EPA likely knew of Carnicom promoting Larry Wayne Harris' original contrails hoax.

There had been a spate of people sending anthrax hoax letters in the mail from 1998, when Harris was charged with mail fraud for ordering anthrax through the US mail..

It should have been no wonder that EPA never responded, but when I forced their hand, they sent it back to Carnicom, telling him that he had failed to provide a chain of custody. That was true.

In the meantime, I instructed Carnicom as to how he could get the material identfied.

He never did. Clifford Carnicom is an abject failure, and needs to admit that his failures have been to the detriment of many people, including himself.