"Ghost Rockets"- UFO's, Meteors, Missiles, or what?

Jason

Senior Member
I was advised to start a new thread regarding this topic so here it goes. In the last thread people were discussing the most likely causes for triangular UFO sightings, summing it up to Stealth Bombers. Which I don't disagree with. My fascination about these "UFO's" deals mostly with pre-manned flight or before the advent of jets, stealth technology, and drones.

One particular incident that stands out are the infamous "ghost rockets" that were sighted all over Scandinavia during 1946. There were some 2000 sightings in a matter of 6 months between may and december. About 10% of them were verified by radar, and authorities recovered actual fragments. Some have tried to explain it away as meteors or possibly the V1 or V2 rockets the Russians were testing after they confiscated them after the war. The Russian theory was rejected by US, Swedish, and British intelligence because no rocket fragments were ever discovered. As for meteors, it's possible, but I can't remember a time in history that 2000 of them have ever been seen in the light of day within a 6 month window. If your lucky, you might see one a year and thats at night, but to see 2000 of them in a concentrated area is highly implausible, and many governments agree. Another reason why they don't believe the majority of them were meteors was because they made turns and didn't fall in the typical fashion that meteors fall in. Here's a top secret file from the USAF that was drawn up in response to these events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1948_Top_Secret_USAF_UFO_extraterrestrial_document.png.
"For some time we have been concerned by the recurring reports on flying saucers. They periodically continue to pop up; during the last week, one was observed hovering over Neubiberg Air Base for about thirty minutes. They have been reported by so many sources and from such a variety of places that we are convinced that they cannot be disregarded and must be explained on some basis which is perhaps slightly beyond the scope of our present intelligence thinking.
"When officers of this Directorate recently visited the Swedish Air Intelligence Service, this question was put to the Swedes. Their answer was that some reliable and fully technically qualified people have reached the conclusion that 'these phenomena are obviously the result of a high technical skill which cannot be credited to any presently known culture on earth'. They are therefore assuming that these objects originate from some previously unknown or unidentified technology, possibly outside the earth".
Content from External Source
So its obvious that the US intelligence community took this seriously and at face value based on what other scientist where telling them and based on radar images.
Investigations concluded that many ghost rocket sightings were probably caused by meteors. For example, the peaks of the sightings, on the 9 and 11 August 1946, also fall within the peak of the annual Perseid meteor shower. However, most ghost rocket sightings did not occur during meteor shower activity, and furthermore displayed characteristics inconsistent with meteors, such as reported maneuverability.
Content from External Source
One of the best known cases was;
The best known of these crashes occurred on July 19, 1946, into Lake Kölmjärv, Sweden. Witnesses reported a gray, rocket-shaped object with wings crashing in the lake. One witness interviewed heard a thunderclap, possibly the object exploding. However, a 3 week military search conducted in intense secrecy again turned up nothing.

Immediately after the investigation, the Swedish Air Force officer who led the search, Karl-Gösta Bartoll (photo right), submitted a report in which he stated that the bottom of the lake had been disturbed but nothing found and that "there are many indications that the Kölmjärv object disintegrated itself...the object was probably manufactured in a lightweight material, possibly a kind of magnesium alloy that would disintegrate easily, and not give indications on our instruments".[2] When Bartoll was later interviewed in 1984 by Swedish researcher Clas Svahn, he again said their investigation suggested the object largely disintegrated in flight and insisted that "what people saw were real, physical objects".[3]
Content from External Source
The Greek government also offered their own opinion after doing research;
The Greek government conducted their own investigation, with their leading scientist, physicist Dr. Paul Santorinis, in charge. Santorinis had been a developer of the proximity fuze on the first A-bomb and held patents on guidance systems for Nike missiles and radar systems. Santorinis was supplied by the Greek Army with a team of engineers to investigate what again were believed to be Russian missiles flying over Greece.

In a 1967 lecture to the Greek Astronomical Society, broadcast on Athens Radio, Santorinis first publicly revealed what had been found in his 1947 investigation. "We soon established that they were not missiles. But, before we could do any more, the Army, after conferring with foreign officials (presumably U.S. Defense Dept.), ordered the investigation stopped. Foreign scientists [from Washington] flew to Greece for secret talks with me". Later Santorinis told UFO researchers such as Raymond Fowler that secrecy was invoked because officials were afraid to admit of a superior technology against which we have "no possibility of defense".[7]
Content from External Source
So what are we to make of these "ghost rockets". We know that many governments were involved in the research of these incidents, and that it was taken seriously. We've heard all governments declare that its likely meteors could have made up the majority of them, but that there are too many cases where they've seen them make turns and move intelligently, coupled with the fact that there have been several craters found in lakes and on land with no remnants of missiles or meteorites. So I wanted to know what others thought.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Jason, while these UFO investigations are interesting, they are not really Metabunk material, as we try to focus in examinable claims of evidence. UFO reports that rely on eyewitness testimony are never going to be resolved either way.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Fascinating mystery, but unlikely anything definitive can be said about it unless some unknown evidence comes to light.
I don't know if anything sets it above what was technologically possible and being explored at the time, other than no-one has claimed responsibility for it.

edit...
Bad Ufo says 'maybe contrails' and even cites contrailscience.
http://badufos.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/famous-1946-ghost-rockets-in-sweden.html

Though it doesn't satisfy the reports of objects falling to earth.



Edit...

A timeline of the topic taking into account the political, military and technological dynamics of the time.

http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Though it doesn't satisfy the reports of objects falling to earth.
I don't want to read the wiki thing again. does it say the rockets literally hit the water? and splashed? if the contrails went off toward the horizon, then from a distance it would look like they 'went into the lake'.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Check the timeline link I posted, it's very detailed.
edit..
Sorry, didn't answer the question - yes it was witnessed crashing into the lake.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Jason, while these UFO investigations are interesting, they are not really Metabunk material, as we try to focus in examinable claims of evidence. UFO reports that rely on eyewitness testimony are never going to be resolved either way.
I agree Mick, thats why I put them in the General Discussion, sorry. They are interesting, and just wanted to get others opinions on the matter.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
16 Aug 46 - (TOP SECRET) From: US Naval Attache at Stockholm, Sweden Date: 16 August, 1946 Reference: MA Stockholm's Top Secret Report R334-46 of 13 August 1946 Subject: SWEDEN Guided Missiles Rocket Sightings Over Sweden

No tangible evidence to date as to nature or origin of rockets reported over Sweden, although Swedish Defense Staff insists that they are rockets. Swedish press and public aroused, but Swedish Air Force officers still on summer leave, aircraft warning not mobilized, and no attempts made to intercept missiles with jet fighters; improbable that rockets, if any, are Russian or British, but possible that they are Swedish. Swedish defense staff evasive and their communiques contradictory and confusing. Sweden may be experimenting with rockets, but is concealing the fact and encouraging belief that rockets of foreign origin are being launched over Sweden, with civilian observers reporting jet fighters, contrails and meteors as rockets.
Content from External Source
Undoubtedly the rockets were a real phenomenon, but possibly reports began to mix in other phenomena as well.
ETA ...
4. Although sightings of brilliant light phenomena over Stockholm on 11 August created a great furore in the Swedish press and considerable concern among the Swedish public, the Swedish Air Force has not called back its officers from their summer leave, and the Swedish aircraft warning net has not been mobilized to spot reported missiles. Considering the fact that hundreds of reports from all over the country have described cigar-shaped missiles with fiery tails at altitudes low enough for interception by Swedish jet-propelled aircraft, this apparently unconcern and lack of sustained energy on the part of the military organization is peculiar.
Content from External Source
:D
 

Jason

Senior Member
UFO witnesses sort of remind me of the Elephant Fable
Many people are familiar with the fable of the blindfolded men who encounter
an elephant but whose impressions of it are wildly different. I shall retell the
story here with liberal alterations to make a point.

Once upon a time there was a small remote village in which everyone was born without
eyesight. One day an elephant sauntered into town and paused to rest in the central
square. Attracted by the unusual smells and sounds of the beast, three villagers groped
their way to the animal. The first villager clutched the trunk.
"Why, it is a foul-smelling snake that hangs suspended in midair!" Villager 1 cried.
"What a fabulous discovery!"
The second villager found the ear.
"It is indeed evil-smelling, my friend," Villager 2 responded. "But this can only be
a strange sort of sailcloth that hangs suspended by a mysterious process."
Villager 3 grabbed the hind leg.
"You are both wrong," he retorted. "Strong of odor it is, but it is nothing more than
an unknown type of tree that has suddenly grown in the midst of the square."
Even though the three could not agree about the nature of their discovery, they
concurred that they had found something quite remarkable. As they went off to summon
family and friends, the elephant lumbered out of the village. Minutes later, the three
villagers returned with half the townspeople in tow. Disappointment and doubt filled
the minds of the other villagere when there was nothing remarkable for them to smell
and touch.
The local skeptic snorted, "Flying serpents, indeed! You must be touching a bit of
the brandy to be finding mysterious sailcloths and vanishing trees in the square!"
The other villagers echoed the skeptic's disdain as they trudged back to their jobs
and homes.
The elephant continued to make occasional stops in the village and the witness
stories became ever stranger: of flying snakes that sprayed water from two mouths, of
smaller aerial whips, of hard, curved and pointed cylinders that hung in mid-air, of a
massive soft rock growing out of moving tree stumps, and of loud bellows that must
surely be from the trumpets of angels. Finally, years later, long after the subject had
become thoroughly discredited, some clever locals figured out that it was all one thing:
an elephant. It turned out to be understandable after all . . . once the many pieces could
be fit into a proper whole.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I was advised to start a new thread regarding this topic so here it goes. In the last thread people were discussing the most likely causes for triangular UFO sightings, summing it up to Stealth Bombers. Which I don't disagree with. My fascination about these "UFO's" deals mostly with pre-manned flight or before the advent of jets, stealth technology, and drones.

One particular incident that stands out are the infamous "ghost rockets" that were sighted all over Scandinavia during 1946. There were some 2000 sightings in a matter of 6 months between may and december. About 10% of them were verified by radar, and authorities recovered actual fragments. Some have tried to explain it away as meteors or possibly the V1 or V2 rockets the Russians were testing after they confiscated them after the war. The Russian theory was rejected by US, Swedish, and British intelligence because no rocket fragments were ever discovered. As for meteors, it's possible, but I can't remember a time in history that 2000 of them have ever been seen in the light of day within a 6 month window. If your lucky, you might see one a year and thats at night, but to see 2000 of them in a concentrated area is highly implausible, and many governments agree. Another reason why they don't believe the majority of them were meteors was because they made turns and didn't fall in the typical fashion that meteors fall in. Here's a top secret file from the USAF that was drawn up in response to these events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1948_Top_Secret_USAF_UFO_extraterrestrial_document.png.
"For some time we have been concerned by the recurring reports on flying saucers. They periodically continue to pop up; during the last week, one was observed hovering over Neubiberg Air Base for about thirty minutes. They have been reported by so many sources and from such a variety of places that we are convinced that they cannot be disregarded and must be explained on some basis which is perhaps slightly beyond the scope of our present intelligence thinking.
"When officers of this Directorate recently visited the Swedish Air Intelligence Service, this question was put to the Swedes. Their answer was that some reliable and fully technically qualified people have reached the conclusion that 'these phenomena are obviously the result of a high technical skill which cannot be credited to any presently known culture on earth'. They are therefore assuming that these objects originate from some previously unknown or unidentified technology, possibly outside the earth".
Content from External Source
So its obvious that the US intelligence community took this seriously and at face value based on what other scientist where telling them and based on radar images.
Investigations concluded that many ghost rocket sightings were probably caused by meteors. For example, the peaks of the sightings, on the 9 and 11 August 1946, also fall within the peak of the annual Perseid meteor shower. However, most ghost rocket sightings did not occur during meteor shower activity, and furthermore displayed characteristics inconsistent with meteors, such as reported maneuverability.
Content from External Source
One of the best known cases was;
The best known of these crashes occurred on July 19, 1946, into Lake Kölmjärv, Sweden. Witnesses reported a gray, rocket-shaped object with wings crashing in the lake. One witness interviewed heard a thunderclap, possibly the object exploding. However, a 3 week military search conducted in intense secrecy again turned up nothing.

Immediately after the investigation, the Swedish Air Force officer who led the search, Karl-Gösta Bartoll (photo right), submitted a report in which he stated that the bottom of the lake had been disturbed but nothing found and that "there are many indications that the Kölmjärv object disintegrated itself...the object was probably manufactured in a lightweight material, possibly a kind of magnesium alloy that would disintegrate easily, and not give indications on our instruments".[2] When Bartoll was later interviewed in 1984 by Swedish researcher Clas Svahn, he again said their investigation suggested the object largely disintegrated in flight and insisted that "what people saw were real, physical objects".[3]
Content from External Source
The Greek government also offered their own opinion after doing research;
The Greek government conducted their own investigation, with their leading scientist, physicist Dr. Paul Santorinis, in charge. Santorinis had been a developer of the proximity fuze on the first A-bomb and held patents on guidance systems for Nike missiles and radar systems. Santorinis was supplied by the Greek Army with a team of engineers to investigate what again were believed to be Russian missiles flying over Greece.

In a 1967 lecture to the Greek Astronomical Society, broadcast on Athens Radio, Santorinis first publicly revealed what had been found in his 1947 investigation. "We soon established that they were not missiles. But, before we could do any more, the Army, after conferring with foreign officials (presumably U.S. Defense Dept.), ordered the investigation stopped. Foreign scientists [from Washington] flew to Greece for secret talks with me". Later Santorinis told UFO researchers such as Raymond Fowler that secrecy was invoked because officials were afraid to admit of a superior technology against which we have "no possibility of defense".[7]
Content from External Source
So what are we to make of these "ghost rockets". We know that many governments were involved in the research of these incidents, and that it was taken seriously. We've heard all governments declare that its likely meteors could have made up the majority of them, but that there are too many cases where they've seen them make turns and move intelligently, coupled with the fact that there have been several craters found in lakes and on land with no remnants of missiles or meteorites. So I wanted to know what others thought.
The articles seem to ignore one possibility. The rockets were real (several countries were testing the technology right after the war) but the militaries of the involved countries swept up the debris and kept the information for themselves. They just didn't share this with the general population This eliminates the requirement for extraterrestrial origin or the need for "special materials" to be used to explain the lack of debris.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
All reports suggest they were made to disintegrate, they would have been early tests for range, propulsion and control, and then later models were possibly used as reconnaissance over the coast of America, going by reports in the following years of American sightings.

23 Jan 47 - US War Department WDGS Intelligence Division "Intelligence Review" (S) article "Ghost Rockets Over Scandinavia" - "Flying missiles were first reported over southern Sweden in late May 1946 by the press, which gave the missiles the name of 'Ghost Rockets.' In June, these missiles also had been reported over Finland and Denmark. By July, the number of sightings over Sweden had greatly increased, and several also had been reported over Norway. The great majority of these reports were made by untrained observers and, as would be expected, vary widely in the description of the actual missiles as well as, of their course, altitude and speed. Descriptions of the Missile. The two most common descriptions of the missiles were 'a ball of fire with a tail' and a 'shiny cigar-shaped object.' The reported direction of flight covered all points of the compass, with a northerly direction being slightly predominant. Variations in altitude ranged from treetop height to 160,000 feet, the higher altitudes almost exclusively being reported from Finland. Speeds reported were from 65 m.p.h. to 'lightning fast,' with the majority described as having great or very great speed. The missiles generally have been reported as diving into the ground or into lakes, or exploding in the air. In no case have fragments been found other than bits of material described as 'nonmetallic slag.'...Conclusions. The Soviets are known to be working on various guided missiles. They have the ability to produce, and probably have tested, missiles of the V-1 type. Without warheads and with slightly improved motors, these missiles could have a range of 500 miles, and are the only available German missiles believed capable of horizontal flight at low altitudes. There is some evidence that such work has been carried out at Stolp (in Polish-administered Germany) or on the Baltic islands of Oesel or Dago. Three of the people reporting sightings have mentioned the sound of an outboard motor, a characteristic of the impulse duct motor used on the V-1 by the Germans; and one of them stated that what he saw looked like the V-1 he had seen over London during the war. Others have reported little or no sound, a condition which may indicate the use of a turbo-jet instead of a pulse-jet. The best evidence, at present, is that there have been only 2 or 3 real incidents, perhaps as many as 5 or 10, of low-flying missiles of the V-1 type. The high-altitude missiles reported seem definitely to have been meteors or fireworks. The Swedish Defense Staff probably has taken advantage of the situation for political purposes and allowed newspapers to make a big story out of the missiles, without admitting that the Staff had any evidence to indicate that there actually were any such missiles. This was done at a time when the Swedish public was demanding reductions in defense expenditures."
...

10 Dec 48 - [TS] Air Intelligence Study 100-203-79, "Analysis of Flying Object Incidents in the U.S." concludes that, "Assuming that the objects might eventually be identified as foreign or foreign-sponsored devices, the possible reason for their appearance over the U.S. requires consideration. Several possible explanations appear noteworthy, viz:

a. To negate U.S. confidence in the atom bomb as the most advanced and decisive weapon in warfare.
b. To perform photographic reconnaissance missions.
c. To test U.S. air defenses.
d. To conduct familiarization flights over U.S. territory.



Content from External Source
Honestly, that link is a fascinating and comprehensive read.
http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm
 
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Jason

Senior Member
The articles seem to ignore one possibility. The rockets were real (several countries were testing the technology right after the war) but the militaries of the involved countries swept up the debris and kept the information for themselves. They just didn't share this with the general population This eliminates the requirement for extraterrestrial origin or the need for "special materials" to be used to explain the lack of debris.
The article doesn't ignore the fact that it could've been V1 or V2 rockets that the Russians were testing after the fall of Germany. Its says it could've been a likely cause, but the US, British, and Swedish military's dismissed that notion. Are we supposed to believe that the Russians, fired roughly 2000 of their "highly classified" rockets over other nations by accident, to only have other governments swoop in to recover them. Don't you think that would be considered an act of war? If the Swedes or any Scandinavian Nation discovered that these were in fact missiles from Russia, I'm sure it would've been pretty big news and not something that would've been kept secret. Just so they could backward engineer these for their own use. These rockets were widely known after the fall of Germany, and both the US, and Russia had their hands on this technology along with the scientist that developed this technology. Why is it ok to assume that the governments "under cover" collected ALL of the fragments to keep a lid on this, but we can't "assume" that governments can't keep anything else a secret. Fair is fair, and it has to work both ways.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The article doesn't ignore the fact that it could've been V1 or V2 rockets that the Russians were testing after the fall of Germany. Its says it could've been a likely cause, but the US, British, and Swedish military's dismissed that notion. Are we supposed to believe that the Russians, fired roughly 2000 of their "highly classified" rockets over other nations by accident, to only have other governments swoop in to recover them. Don't you think that would be considered an act of war? If the Swedes or any Scandinavian Nation discovered that these were in fact missiles from Russia, I'm sure it would've been pretty big news and not something that would've been kept secret. Just so they could backward engineer these for their own use. These rockets were widely known after the fall of Germany, and both the US, and Russia had their hands on this technology along with the scientist that developed this technology. Why is it ok to assume that the governments "under cover" collected ALL of the fragments to keep a lid on this, but we can't "assume" that governments can't keep anything else a secret. Fair is fair, and it has to work both ways.
there were 2000 ghost rockets or 2000 Sightings?
 

Bill

Senior Member.
The article doesn't ignore the fact that it could've been V1 or V2 rockets that the Russians were testing after the fall of Germany. Its says it could've been a likely cause, but the US, British, and Swedish military's dismissed that notion. Are we supposed to believe that the Russians, fired roughly 2000 of their "highly classified" rockets over other nations by accident, to only have other governments swoop in to recover them. Don't you think that would be considered an act of war? If the Swedes or any Scandinavian Nation discovered that these were in fact missiles from Russia, I'm sure it would've been pretty big news and not something that would've been kept secret. Just so they could backward engineer these for their own use. These rockets were widely known after the fall of Germany, and both the US, and Russia had their hands on this technology along with the scientist that developed this technology. Why is it ok to assume that the governments "under cover" collected ALL of the fragments to keep a lid on this, but we can't "assume" that governments can't keep anything else a secret. Fair is fair, and it has to work both ways.
You're right fair is fair. 2000 sightings is not 2000 impacts. In 1946 most militaries would have been able to track any actual rockets that accidentally entered Swedish airspace and impacted. None of these rockets are reported to have fallen on population centers and if they were accidents there would be no reason to advertise them and upset a populace that was just recovering from a major war. I understand both sides raided German technology. You don't necessarily collect the debris with the objective of backwards engineering. Find out if the Russians had made any improvements would be reason enough. If they hadn't the debris would eventually end up on the scrap heap. I have to wonder why if there were 2000 objects entering Swedish airspace the Swedish military did not respond?

There is always going to be some assumption in events where there is only anecdotal evidence. This only increases the farther back you go in history. It helps if you have access to the original sources. People, especially people try to sell books, tend to selectively from reports to bolster their case. An example of this would be that first claim in the Wikipedia post you listed in the other thread.

upload_2014-3-16_3-2-36.png

On the surface it looks like a possible UFO sighting. Then lets look at the other portents reported by Livy.

Some of these portents were: that a free-born infant of six months had cried “Triumph!” [2] in the provision market; that in the cattle market an ox had climbed, [3??] of its own accord, to the third storey of a house and then, alarmed by the outcry of the occupants, had thrown itself down; [4] that phantom ships had been seen gleaming in the sky; that the temple of Hope, in the provision market, had been struck by lightning; that in Lanuvium a slain victim had stirred, and a raven had flown down into Juno's temple and alighted on her very couch; that in the district of Amiternum, in many places, apparitions of men in shining raiment had appeared in the distance, but had not drawn near to anyone; [5] that in the Picentian country there had been a shower of pebbles; that at Caere the lots had shrunk;1 that in Gaul a wolf had snatched a sentry's sword from its scabbard and run off with it.
Content from External Source
The History of Rome, Book 21, Chapter 62

If you accept the phantom ships as factual then we have to accept the other portents as factual as well, including the declarative six moth old, the suicidal ox, the slain victim stirring, and the rain of pebbles. If the are not accepted as true events then the phantom ships have no basis in truth.

I'm kind of rambling so I'll shut up now. I probably shouldn't try to do this at 3:30 in the morning.
 

Jason

Senior Member
You're right fair is fair. 2000 sightings is not 2000 impacts. In 1946 most militaries would have been able to track any actual rockets that accidentally entered Swedish airspace and impacted. None of these rockets are reported to have fallen on population centers and if they were accidents there would be no reason to advertise them and upset a populace that was just recovering from a major war. I understand both sides raided German technology. You don't necessarily collect the debris with the objective of backwards engineering. Find out if the Russians had made any improvements would be reason enough. If they hadn't the debris would eventually end up on the scrap heap. I have to wonder why if there were 2000 objects entering Swedish airspace the Swedish military did not respond?
There is always going to be some assumption in events where there is only anecdotal evidence. This only increases the farther back you go in history. It helps if you have access to the original sources. People, especially people try to sell books, tend to selectively from reports to bolster their case. An example of this would be that first claim in the Wikipedia post you listed in the other thread.
Well said Bill, and you make a great point. I can understand that argument about wanting to keep it under lock and key because the region just experienced a World War, and they didn't want to frighten the public with the notion of another war. Using UFO's as the culprit, would of equally instilled fear in the public. They would've worried about aliens attacking them from the sky, which would've given the governments the opportunity to increase funding in the military to keep the citizens at bay. That all makes sense, and I'm somewhat sure all governments have used this form of propaganda. Who knows, maybe the US government was instrumental in doing this so they could increase their military influence in the Region. We all know the US feared Russia and vice versa, so maybe the US was involved so they could set up satellite radar stations all over Europe (Iron Dome rings a bell). I can buy this, but as you note it still doesn't make sense that Scandinavian governments would've sat idly by while Russia launched missile after missile into their countries. Surely phone calls would've been made, and even more likely Russia would've been hearing the news coming out of these countries and would've been worried about these other nations stealing their technology. You theorized that these rockets had a range of 500 miles, and if we look at Russia, we can see its a really big place. Much larger than 500 miles, in fact before it broke up it was incredibly large. If I was Russia, and I speaking off the cuff now, I would've rather fired my secret missiles over sovereign land, like in the north near Siberia. I've could've easily fired these without worrying about them falling into the hands of other countries. Thats the only concern I have about the Russian Theory, and I suspect thats why other nations dismissed this as a cause..

And maybe the Russians or local governments were trying to figure this issue out; It seems a great deal of these rockets had issues and would break up. (which could've been what witnesses were seeing from the ground.) We also cant dismiss the fact that this could've very likely been Scandinavian countries firing these v-2 missiles in an attempt to intimidate Russia.
Airburst problem[edit]
Content from External Source

Through mid-March 1944, only 4 of the 26 successful Blizna launches had satisfactorily reached the Sarnaki target area[27]:112, 221–222, 282 due to in-flight breakup (Luftzerleger) on entry into the atmosphere.[30]:100Initially, excessive alcohol tank pressure was suspected, but by April 1944 after 5 months of test firings, the cause was still not determined. Major-General Rossmann, the Army Weapons Office department chief, recommended stationing observers in the target area – c. May/June, Dornberger and von Braun set up a camp at the centre of the Poland target zone.[3]: After moving to the Heidekraut,[14]:172,173 SS Mortar Battery 500 of the 836th Artillery Battalion (Motorized) was ordered[27]:47 on 30 August[26] to begin test launches of eighty 'sleeved' rockets.[16]:281 Testing confirmed that the so-called 'tin trousers' – a tube designed to strengthen the forward end of the rocket cladding—reduced the likelihood of airbursts.[30]:100
Content from External Source
 
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Jason

Senior Member
there were 2000 ghost rockets or 2000 Sightings?
D, I think you can say both. That there were 2000 sightings or 2000 ghost rockets. Surely, a portion of them could've easily been shooting stars like during the Perseid Meteor shower where they experienced an uptick in sightings between Aug 9 and the 14th, but the majority of these "ghost rocket" sightings were witnessed in the light of day.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
D, I think you can say both. That there were 2000 sightings or 2000 ghost rockets. Surely, a portion of them could've easily been shooting stars like during the Perseid Meteor shower where they experienced an uptick in sightings between Aug 9 and the 14th, but the majority of these "ghost rocket" sightings were witnessed in the light of day.
no, I mean if you live across town from me. and we both see a 'ufo' tonight and report it. do they consider that one sighting? or two?
 

Jason

Senior Member
no, I mean if you live across town from me. and we both see a 'ufo' tonight and report it. do they consider that one sighting? or two?
Ah, great point D. I don't know to be honest with you, but I would suspect that initially it would be multiple sightings of the same sighting, but once the research is done it would be designated as one sighting by multiple witnesses. I'm assuming this by the way
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
this site it seems is calling each report a sighting... it IS an interesting question, how many actual separate things in the sky were there.
At least several hundred thousand (estimated) UFO sightings have been documented over the last 50 years, and the total number of UFO sightings is estimated to be in the millions. At least several thousand sightings are reported each year. Only a small percentage of those who see a UFO report the sighting.
Content from External Source
http://ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp
 

Jason

Senior Member
this site it seems is calling each report a sighting... it IS an interesting question, how many actual separate things in the sky were there.
At least several hundred thousand (estimated) UFO sightings have been documented over the last 50 years, and the total number of UFO sightings is estimated to be in the millions. At least several thousand sightings are reported each year. Only a small percentage of those who see a UFO report the sighting.
Content from External Source
http://ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp
I agree, but as others have point out it took place so long ago that it will be difficult to answer questions like yours. I think your question is important in that it would be nice to know if there were 200 actual sightings, with 2000 witnesses. Honestly, that should've been addressed back then if you think about it, so that they could've identified how many "individual" cases there were, and for all we know maybe the "2000" has already been identified as individual cases. Great question though
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Once upon a time there was a small remote village in which everyone was born without
eyesight. One day an elephant sauntered into town ...some clever locals figured out that it was all one thing:
an elephant. It turned out to be understandable after all . . . once the many pieces could
be fit into a proper whole.
And then some patriotic truth-lovers posted a YouTube video explaining how the elephant was really
a time-traveller--sent by aliens--in a "false flag" operation designed to take the villagers' guns.

p.s. And why were gov shills allowed to dismiss the chemtrails that genetically blinded the all the villagers anyway?!?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
so maybe the US was involved
I don't know how you can think this, as the documents clearly show they were trying to figure out the puzzle as well.

Oct 48 - USAF Air Intelligence Digest - Chief of Soviet Long Range Air Force on cover [DA Air Chief Marshal Aleksandr Golovanov]. Under Sweden heading - “Fires in the Sky” - “An increase in number of incidents over Sweden during summer may be connected with Soviet guided missile tests in the Lake Seliger area (57 N. - 33 E.) or along the Baltic coast of Estonia. About 32 launching sites reportedly exist in areas fronting on the Baltic Sea. Swedish sources claim to have confirmed the existence of three such sites. Reoccurrence of so-called rocket incidents over Sweden is important in view of the reported move of Peenemünde launching facilities to locations in the USSR. Earlier, the greatest number of incidents in Scandinavia occurred in 1946, when the Peenemünde facilities reportedly were being used in trial launchings of German World War II missiles then being manufactured in the Soviet Zone of Germany. Sightings of rockets over Scandinavia ceased with the reported removal of Peenemünde facilities but began again almost coincidentally with the reported establishment of test facilities in the USSR. Any missiles being test-fired by the Soviets in areas such as the Baltic probably are slightly improved versions of German World War II types, and those which may be under development at installations in the interior regions of the USSR possibly are more advanced types [Secret]” [Lake Seliger location is partially correct. Groettrup German rocket team had been transferred to facility in lake on Gorodolmya Island in 1947]


24 Feb, 1949 - Schweinfurt, Germany:

American authorities in Germany are baffled over the origin of four mysterious projectiles which have landed and exploded in the same area, just east of Schweinfurt, since October, 1946. The last of the rocket- or jet-propelled missiles landed last Jan. 31, 1949, and eye-witnesses said it came from the northeast and had a 20-foot-long flaming tail. Experts so far have been unable to reconstruct the projectiles from the small bits recovered from the craters.

Content from External Source
If you have any interest in the subject then read the link! I can't believe you haven't already.
http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm
 

Jason

Senior Member
I don't know how you can think this, as the documents clearly show they were trying to figure out the puzzle as well.
1 Jun 46 - Aftonbladet: "Helsingfors, Saturday. Mysterious objects, considered to be some kind of peculiar 'meteors' or some new V-bomb being tested, have flown over Helsingfors. The mysterious wingless projectiles, which fly on a north-east--south-west course, appear to have their 'bases' somewhere north of Lake Ladoga. The objects flew over Helsingfors last week, on Friday night." (quoted in PRO Air Intelligence files)
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This states that the most likely origin of these missiles (Ghost Rockets) came from north of Lake Ladoga in Russia. If that is true then how did Missiles go as far as;
28 May 46 - Morgon-Tidningen: "It is not only in Landskrona and Gavle that fireballs and lighted [?word missing] without wings are seen. Also from Karlskrona and Halsingborg are similar observations reported, and many persons in the Stockholm area stated to the MT that they saw the same phenomenon in Huddings and Hagalund. No one really knows what is going on. One guess is of experiments with secret weapons, but aviation experts think that in such a case it is curious that no sound is reported in connection with the observations - long range bombing practice gives off noise."
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Here's a map of their location https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...2!3m1!1s0x4653b5e5f3793aa7:0xdeb8cfbc1250e463.
Thats a distance of roughly 756 miles, and thats from the lake itself, not north of the lake. Karlskrona is also 657 miles from Lake Ladoga, and Halsingborg is 753 miles from Lake Ladoga. The problem with V-2's is that they could only fly for about 200 miles, and surely the Russians might have made improvements to the V-2, but I doubt they quadrupled the flight time in a short year after the war ended. I'm not arguing they couldn't be rockets. Its quite possible every sighting seen in Scandinavia was due to Russian's launching these secret missiles across the baltic sea. But the question I have is why would the Russians be testing their rockets so close to other nations knowing they could possibly steer off course and fall into the hands of other nations, especially other nations that were allies with the US.

And why did the USAFE draw up a top secret document in 1948 indicating the "ghost rockets" had an ET origin. Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1948_Top_Secret_USAF_UFO_extraterrestrial_document.png
;
Here is what was written in the document in case its hard to read thanks tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_rockets
"For some time we have been concerned by the recurring reports on flying saucers. They periodically continue to pop up; during the last week, one was observed hovering over Neubiberg Air Base for about thirty minutes. They have been reported by so many sources and from such a variety of places that we are convinced that they cannot be disregarded and must be explained on some basis which is perhaps slightly beyond the scope of our present intelligence thinking.
"When officers of this Directorate recently visited the Swedish Air Intelligence Service, this question was put to the Swedes. Their answer was that some reliable and fully technically qualified people have reached the conclusion that 'these phenomena are obviously the result of a high technical skill which cannot be credited to any presently known culture on earth'. They are therefore assuming that these objects originate from some previously unknown or unidentified technology, possibly outside the earth".
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And Neubiberg Air Base is located about 1180 miles from Lake Ladoga
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I think they were designed to disintegrate/self-destruct/burn up, possibly made of lower-grade materials or self-consuming and considered disposable as test flights, data being collected remotely.
Slag material was recovered in some cases.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I think they were designed to disintegrate/self-destruct/burn up, possibly made of lower-grade materials or self-consuming and considered disposable as test flights, data being collected remotely.
Slag material was recovered in some cases.
How could the data be recovered remotely? I don't think that was possible then, and if it was possible then they surely would've known their rockets were landing in other countries that were allies to the US. The Germans used radio to guide their missiles but thanks in large part to the US and British military they figured out how to jam these radio singles sending alot of missiles crashing into the waters between England and Europe. Who knows maybe they employed these jamming devices after the war and thats why Russian missiles were going off course and heading towards Europe. It just doesn't make any sense for Russia to fire these secret missiles over the Baltic Sea and towards Scandinavia, even if they had the ability to self destruct, because the chances of this technology falling into the hands of the US and its allies would've increase significantly. I said the US could've been behind as a last ditch effort to explain it away. Maybe the US didn't start it, but added to the affect hoping these countries would call us in to help them figure it out and help them defend their shores. Its really weird that there was a sighting that lasted over 30 minutes near Neubiberg Air Base which is almost 1200 miles away. There wasn't anything either side had at the time that could fly that far. Neubiberg was a joint air force base shared between the Germans and US up until it closed in 1991.

And equally if the Russians were engaging in this type of activity wouldn't we also expect similar reports to come out of Russia. Shouldn't there be stories about "ghost rockets" that surfaced in the Russian news like it did in Europe. Surely we would've expected to hear something from other regions west, north and south of where they were launching these rockets, unless Russia intended to fire every missile in the direction of Europe and them veering off course wasn't the case.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
It just doesn't make any sense for Russia to fire these secret missiles over the Baltic Sea and towards Scandinavia,

Well the political climate at the time was pretty paranoid on all sides, Russians may have been trying a little intimidation to psychologically catch up to the Nuclear technical superiority of the West, Sweden was a neutral country at the time.
It may not make sense looking at it from our current state of the world, but things were quite tense back then.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Well the political climate at the time was pretty paranoid on all sides, Russians may have been trying a little intimidation to psychologically catch up to the Nuclear technical superiority of the West, Sweden was a neutral country at the time.
It may not make sense looking at it from our current state of the world, but things were quite tense back then.
I can agree with that, but if we can assume that Russian did this to showcase their might or to intimidate then we can't discount the fact that the US might have been trying to do the same thing, and to influence the region in a post war to use the US and its military to defend them. The US's only intentions by being in the area was a matter of proximity to Russia. To keep an eye on them, and early detection for Ballistic Missile capabilities. And most importantly to keep them out of east of Germany.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well that then assumes all the US memos and military reports puzzling over the phenomenon are faked or out of the loop, which may be an unnecessary complication as that implies a whole further chain of events/implications to it.
The early Russian origins theory was rejected by Swedish, British, and U.S. military investigators
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This sentence in the wiki article is confusing because the timeline article doesn't seem to imply that, it seems their best guess *was* that it was Russia.
Be nice if we could see some Russian internal memos of the time.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Content from external source
The early Russian origins theory was rejected by Swedish, British, and U.S. military investigators
This sentence in the wiki article is confusing because the timeline article doesn't seem to imply that, it seems their best guess *was* that it was Russia.
Be nice if we could see some Russian internal memos of the time.
I agree Pete, and I even tried to do a search on the author of the Timeline article; Joel Carpenter, and I came up with nothing. I have no idea what his intentions were when he wrote that or who he was affiliated with. There are way too many discrepancies to know for sure what really happened, and when that happens its usually a sign of Government Intelligence Propaganda. I also keep in mind that we're getting that out of wikipedia, which at times could state incorrect information. Where was the article written, and why is it called Project 1947 when the dates in the Timeline Article are 1937-1953. You know what I mean, what made the author arbitrarily choose the year 1947. Whats the significance of that year as opposed to all the other years he could've chosen from.

And if you think about it, this sort of ties into the Foo Fighters claims as well.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Hmm, you think it's a smokescreen? I'm just going to go with what it is what it looks like on the surface, and the author's other work in case studies of UFO's exhibit the same thoroughness.

http://www.project1947.com/articles/dow.htm
http://www.nicap.org/trentphoto.htm
http://www.nicap.org/reports/lockufoinc.htm

And the main site hosting the timeline is dedicated to documenting UFO reports of that era.

PROJECT 1947, an ongoing intensive research effort into the UFO wave of 1947, will accomplish several important tasks:


  • Screen over 5,000 newspapers from all over the world for UFO reports.
  • Search for UFO reports in libraries, historical societies, universities, archives and other institutions in the US and Canada.
  • Compile the reports and data into the most comprehensive study of the 1947 UFO Wave yet done. The first volume of this study, PROJECT 1947: A Preliminary Report, was published by The UFO Research Coalition.
PROJECT 1947, with its primary focus on the 1947 wave, will also look forward as far as 1965 and back to 1900 for certain selected significant topics in UFO research. The 1900-1946 period will be examined for UFO-like reports.
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So I think suspecting the author of fabricating the report is not really that plausible, to me and my level of suspicion anyway. He seems to have an established pedigree as researcher, and he is referred to in other UFO case-studies.

Anyway, here is a declassified note to the president which covers the American view, so you don't have to suspect Joel of fabrication.
22 August 1946
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

Since preparation of original memorandum dated 1 August 1948 on the subject of "Ghost Rockets" over Scandinavia, additionnal intelligence indicates that the former tentative conclusions should be somehow modified.

  • 1. The weight of evidence now points to Peenemunde rather than to the Golf of Finland as the probable launching site of most of these "rockets".
    • a. While it was originally believed that the German installations at Peenemunde had been dismantled and shipped to the U.S.S.R., General McNamary now reports that Peenemunde is operational.
    • b. The U.S. Military Attache Moscow has reported that a key Swedish Officer stated that, on the basis of the Swedish radar course-plotting, most of the launching have been identified with the Peenemunde area.
    • c. An S.S.U. sources indicates that a Soviet ship is reporting by radio to shore stations on the passage of these missiles from Peenemunde over the North baltic.
    • d. The Leopoldville radio reported in July that the Soviets were warning shipping against the passage through certain parts of the Baltic and were threatening to death penalty the seamen who might disclose the "phenomena" that they saw.
  • 2. On the basis of the above evidence it seems probable that the U.S.S.R. is carrying out large-scale guided-missile tests around the Baltic, in which most of the missiles are launched from the Peenemunde area and traverse Sweden toward the Gulf of Bothnic.
  • 3. It is believed of CIG that scientific experimentation is the primary Soviet objective and that political considerations, although thoroughly appreciated, are secondary.
    • a. In view of transportation difficulties it would seem logical for the Soviets to center their experimental program around Peenemunde where manufacturing facilities, material and German personnal would be close at hand, rather than to set up new installations in Russia.

      http://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/foia02.htm
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Jason

Senior Member
So I think suspecting the author of fabricating the report is not really that plausible, to me and my level of suspicion anyway. He seems to have an established pedigree as researcher, and he is referred to in other UFO case-studies.

This was right above what you copy and pasted from the declassified document.
A MEMO TO PRESIDENT TRUMAN:
This document is the first page of a secret report from General Hoyt S. Vandenberg to President Harry Truman regarding the "Ghost Rockets" being reported over the Scandinavian countries in 1946-1947. In this document, General Vandenberg explains that these are really rockets, of German world war II technology, and launched by the Russians from the Peenemunde Base.

INTEREST:
This document dated August 22, 1946 shows that high military headquarters estimated that the rockets were of Russian origin, or that they had no better way to explain them to the President.
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I never said he fabricated the story, please don't put words into my mouth. All I said was I couldn't find information about him on the web when I did a "simple" search. I don't know who he was affiliated with, where he was from, or why he wrote the "timeline" article. I feel like you bated me into that answer by what you stated as being "curious". So I ran with it, and asked questions about the authors intention. Its all well and good that you found a declassified document that was written to President Truman by General Hoyt S. Vandenberg. The President wanted answers, and their "best guess" was to blame it on Russia. Its seems to me that they didn't have any reasonable answer as to what was going on, or why it was going on. Most importantly, for the President of the United States to take an interest in this and ask for direct communication should lend credence to the severity of these claims. I think the aforementioned 1948 Declassified Document which states something entirely different makes this whole thing confusing. In the 1948 memo from the USAFE, they denote that it could be of ET origin (thread #23). This was written 2 yrs after the fact, Why? Why was it written 2yrs later, after already notifying the President that it was probably Russia? Does that make any sense to you? What that says to me is, they had no idea what was causing these "ghost rockets" in 1946, so they continued to investigate the matter. That they didn't have answers for the President, who likes to surround himself with YES men.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Robert Scheaffer wrote to me in 2010 about that article, he was quite enthusiastic about the contrail idea - but I told him I'd have to go with a tentative: "maybe some sighting were contrails"
The sightings of what were called "ghost rockets" in Europe, mostly in Sweden, in the aftermath World War II, is well-known to students of UFOlogy, if not to the general public. They were "ghost rockets" in the sense that people reported seeing objects they described as "rockets" or "missiles," yet no evidence of the actual existence of such objects has ever turned up. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_rockets ) Some of the objects were reported to crash into lakes (why was it never a forest?), but despite numerous searches no rocket parts were ever recovered from any lake, or anywhere else.
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Great article Mick, and I took the first paragraph from it to show he didn't write the article with an open mind. His sarcasm about these "ghost rockets" only landing in lakes isn't true. Craters were found and so were some remains.
and authorities recovered physical fragments which were attributed to ghost rockets
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I don't think its hard to imagine why people noticed projectiles landing in a body of water vs land. Its easier to see them landing in water from a distance rather than in a forest with trees. You can see the water react with the projectile. Just like dropping a rock into a body of water, but not that simple obviously.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I feel like you bated me into that answer by what you stated as being "curious". So I ran with it, and asked questions about the authors intention.
That's your interpretation, but okay.
No baiting, was just wondering how they got the idea that America rejected the Russian origin explanation, as there's no citation for it, but the timeline is made up of actual communications on the subject in which they strongly question that possibility.

Why was it written 2yrs later, after already notifying the President that it was probably Russia? Does that make any sense to you? What that says to me is, they had no idea what was causing these "ghost rockets" in 1946, so they continued to investigate the matter.

Yep , they had no confirmation either way by that time. It was still a mystery to them during the 50's, but they strongly suspected Russia of sending something over US airspace then and related it to these earlier incidents.
The report just states the opinion of the Swedes, it doesn't really state what US thought and is not a conclusive opinion on the matter. I'm sure ET was considered as possibility, but priority would have gone to Russian origin.
It would be interesting to see if there were any more recent Military summaries of the whole period allowing for greater time and hindsight.
BUT, all these internal US communications do indicate that America was not behind it, which I think you alluded to as a possibility.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I found another mammoth and well researched article on the subject,
http://www.saturdaynightuforia.com/html/articles/articlehtml/ghostrocketsof1946.html
which actually uses the recently translated memoirs of a Russian rocket researcher Chertok to give insight into the state of Russian research at the time.
Over the course of the 1990s, Boris Chertok produced Rockets and People, a four-volume memoir of the Soviet missile and space program. In 2005 the office of the NASA Historian began a mammoth project translating the work into English, and posted it at the NASA site.
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While there was definitely much work being done to understand and utilise the German research, it seems the timing of their program cannot account for the Swedish activity.
What's still missing however is any internal Russian report mentioning the ghost rockets and whether they themselves were perplexed by them.

Also there was a wave of Swedish sightings in the 30's, 'ghost fliers', though these more readily have characteristics of airplanes.

THE STRANGE NAME given the reported rockets harkened back to the 1930s, when sightings of seemingly mysterious airplanes over Scandinavia -- called 'ghost fliers' in the Swedish press -- gripped public attention between 1933 and 1934. The 'ghost fliers' caused considerable consternation because they were unmarked, flew at night -- at that time a very rare occurrence in aviation -- and often were said to project beams of light.
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Also this article mentions in the notes that the 1948 memo mentioning the Swedish opinion of otherworldly technology was from 1946, perhaps referring tot the time of the visit to Swedish Air Intelligence.
8. Another interesting sidelight occurred two years later, as found in a United States Air Force document marked "Top Secret". Although the document is dated 4 Nov 1948 it apparently refers to events of 1946:
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So I would back up a little on my opinion that it was most likely Russian tech as the Russian program seems slightly out of whack with the timing. I still think it's more likely to be a combination of military experimentation and meteor showers, but will likely remain indefinite.
 

Jason

Senior Member
That's your interpretation, but okay.
No baiting, was just wondering how they got the idea that America rejected the Russian origin explanation, as there's no citation for it, but the timeline is made up of actual communications on the subject in which they strongly question that possibility.



Yep , they had no confirmation either way by that time. It was still a mystery to them during the 50's, but they strongly suspected Russia of sending something over US airspace then and related it to these earlier incidents.
The report just states the opinion of the Swedes, it doesn't really state what US thought and is not a conclusive opinion on the matter. I'm sure ET was considered as possibility, but priority would have gone to Russian origin.
It would be interesting to see if there were any more recent Military summaries of the whole period allowing for greater time and hindsight.
BUT, all these internal US communications do indicate that America was not behind it, which I think you alluded to as a possibility.
I found something that might interest you, and I wish I could copy and past it but I can't because it's from google books. The book is called; "The Mammouth Encyclopedia of ET Encounters". Here it is, and it opens up right to the discussion involving ghost rockets; http://books.google.com/books?id=ma20lQsUdhQC&pg=PT263&lpg=PT263&dq=russian news about ghost rockets&source=bl&ots=0UyatLazk4&sig=uBhyeMfhkCE3wO41-RpVPmkMC8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0AonU-P-OpOQ0gGg04EQ&ved=0CIUBEOgBMAk#v=onepage&q=russian news about ghost rockets&f=false. The book discusses how the governments took this extremely seriously, and the US and its advisors asked the nations like Sweden, Norway, and Finland to not discuss the location of the sightings any longer publicly or in the media. All three nations suppressed the media as of late July 1946, and early August, and as a result no more stories were being printed and the governments stopped discussing sightings altogether. If thats the case, it could help explain why there isn't much in terms of media archive of actual events. It's also brings into question how the "Timeline article" was written with such specific dates and locations after July of 1946. Check it out if you can, its only 3 pages.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I found something that might interest you, and I wish I could copy and past it but I can't because it's from google books. The book is called; "The Mammouth Encyclopedia of ET Encounters". Here it is, and it opens up right to the discussion involving ghost rockets; http://books.google.com/books?id=ma20lQsUdhQC&pg=PT263&lpg=PT263&dq=russian news about ghost rockets&source=bl&ots=0UyatLazk4&sig=uBhyeMfhkCE3wO41-RpVPmkMC8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0AonU-P-OpOQ0gGg04EQ&ved=0CIUBEOgBMAk#v=onepage&q=russian news about ghost rockets&f=false. The book discusses how the governments took this extremely seriously, and the US and its advisors asked the nations like Sweden, Norway, and Finland to not discuss the location of the sightings any longer publicly or in the media. All three nations suppressed the media as of late July 1946, and early August, and as a result no more stories were being printed and the governments stopped discussing sightings altogether. If thats the case, it could help explain why there isn't much in terms of media archive of actual events. It's also brings into question how the "Timeline article" was written with such specific dates and locations after July of 1946. Check it out if you can, its only 3 pages.
but nothing you are providing sounds even remotely 'non human'. it sounds decidedly military in every aspect. now if they had seen silver rockets with fins in 1774 you might have something.
Even a 'scientist' or two suggesting it might be ET ("what do you think? he said) is not non human in the least. Considering he most likely grew up reading Jules Verne.
 

Jason

Senior Member
but nothing you are providing sounds even remotely 'non human'. it sounds decidedly military in every aspect. now if they had seen silver rockets with fins in 1774 you might have something.
Even a 'scientist' or two suggesting it might be ET ("what do you think? he said) is not non human in the least. Considering he most likely grew up reading Jules Verne.
Agreed, but I summised it could've possibly been the US as well to bolster our need in the region. It just doesn't make any sense for Russia to fire their missiles across the baltic and towards Europe and allies of America. I'm willing to accept, as Mick pointed out in the second post, that while this interesting, its likely we won't ever get to the bottom of it.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
It's also brings into question how the "Timeline article" was written with such specific dates and locations after July of 1946.
Because the investigator had access to declassified internal military memos from the time, it wasn't just made up of press reports, and as well it seems most of the events in 47 were focusing on the American saucer incidents and some happening in other parts of the world. There is no real mention of further significant Swedish incidents in 47.
There is this though.

26 Nov 47 - AFOIR memo - Subj, Mysterious Missiles Reported in Sweden - desc conf at AFOIR Hq on 7 Oct 47 where Capt Therien, Royal Swedish Navy, stated that GRs were fired from Peenemünde. Sighted making 180 deg turn, 33 were believed to be factual, missiles were flying again, new launchings believed made from Petsamo area (WNW of Murmansk, see 12 Nov) (Petsamo transferred from Finland to USSR at Paris Conference in 1947). Bernt Balchen, fmr col, USAF, interviewed by personnel this Hq on 14 Oct 47. [see 13 June 44] Gave info concerning two radar locations in Petsamo area and rocket firing incident observed in same area. Gen Kessler, USMA Stockholm, did not agree with Therien
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And further intrigue...

17 Feb 48 - AFOIR-AA memo. A Swedish Dr Wilkenson described efforts of Swedish govt and his company to perfect V-1-type guided missiles; had called in a German scientist who was expert on V-1 for assistance with range deficiency. Dr Wilkenson had ideas about GRs but Col von Schinkel shouted him down
Content from External Source

Unrelated, but of interest to 'HAARP as weapon' speculation, this...

12 Nov 47 - Frm AFOIR-DD to CG, USAF ATTN: Asst Chief of Staff A-1 SUBJ: Russian Experiments near the Arctic Circle - "With regard to your request in basic communication, the following comments are submitted: The Russian experiments on Nowaja Zemalaja are believed to be experiments in nuclear physics, especially concerned with cosmic rays...The earth's 'electronic atmosphere' (ionosphere) does absorb Actinic Rays (extreme ultra violet light) from the suns radiation. 'Roentgen Rays' (X-Rays) are not believed to be present to any appreciable extent in the sun's output. Focusing these actinic rays by any 'means of instruments and glasses' is not considered likely, as they are absorbed by practically all materials...The 'electronic atmosphere' is conventionally called the 'ionosphere'. Any energy which men might apply to de-ionize a 'gap' in this 'ionosphere' would have to equal or exceed the energy the sun applies to the same area. This energy would be exceedingly high, more than that consumed by a large electrified city...While this report may indicate a serious research project that is worthy of watching, the specific information and its purported explanation of 'saucers' are not considered worthy of any action at this time. FILED UNDER: 373.2 Winter Operations"
Content from External Source
 

Jason

Senior Member
Because the investigator had access to declassified internal military memos from the time, it wasn't just made up of press reports, and as well it seems most of the events in 47 were focusing on the American saucer incidents and some happening in other parts of the world. There is no real mention of further significant Swedish incidents in 47.
There is this though.

26 Nov 47 - AFOIR memo - Subj, Mysterious Missiles Reported in Sweden - desc conf at AFOIR Hq on 7 Oct 47 where Capt Therien, Royal Swedish Navy, stated that GRs were fired from Peenemünde. Sighted making 180 deg turn, 33 were believed to be factual, missiles were flying again, new launchings believed made from Petsamo area (WNW of Murmansk, see 12 Nov) (Petsamo transferred from Finland to USSR at Paris Conference in 1947). Bernt Balchen, fmr col, USAF, interviewed by personnel this Hq on 14 Oct 47. [see 13 June 44] Gave info concerning two radar locations in Petsamo area and rocket firing incident observed in same area. Gen Kessler, USMA Stockholm, did not agree with Therien
Content from External Source
And further intrigue...

17 Feb 48 - AFOIR-AA memo. A Swedish Dr Wilkenson described efforts of Swedish govt and his company to perfect V-1-type guided missiles; had called in a German scientist who was expert on V-1 for assistance with range deficiency. Dr Wilkenson had ideas about GRs but Col von Schinkel shouted him down
Content from External Source

Unrelated, but of interest to 'HAARP as weapon' speculation, this...

12 Nov 47 - Frm AFOIR-DD to CG, USAF ATTN: Asst Chief of Staff A-1 SUBJ: Russian Experiments near the Arctic Circle - "With regard to your request in basic communication, the following comments are submitted: The Russian experiments on Nowaja Zemalaja are believed to be experiments in nuclear physics, especially concerned with cosmic rays...The earth's 'electronic atmosphere' (ionosphere) does absorb Actinic Rays (extreme ultra violet light) from the suns radiation. 'Roentgen Rays' (X-Rays) are not believed to be present to any appreciable extent in the sun's output. Focusing these actinic rays by any 'means of instruments and glasses' is not considered likely, as they are absorbed by practically all materials...The 'electronic atmosphere' is conventionally called the 'ionosphere'. Any energy which men might apply to de-ionize a 'gap' in this 'ionosphere' would have to equal or exceed the energy the sun applies to the same area. This energy would be exceedingly high, more than that consumed by a large electrified city...While this report may indicate a serious research project that is worthy of watching, the specific information and its purported explanation of 'saucers' are not considered worthy of any action at this time. FILED UNDER: 373.2 Winter Operations"
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Its amazing and thats why I love this forum. We have the opportunity to learn a great deal. Sure we can research this stuff on our own, but its hard to get all perspectives when doing so because you go into it either believing one way or another. Pete you've done an excellent job laying out the facts to the best of your ability and I appreciate that. You've made an excellent attempt to point the finger at Russia, and while doing so I'm inclined to believe you. There are a number of things that still don't make any sense. First being the 1948 declassified document from the USAFE which discussed ET origins right on wiki, but your right this letter was "second hand" knowledge of the events. It only supported what other eye witnesses claimed, but didn't rule out it could've been something else. Second, I think the declassified document you provided to Truman from General Hoyt proves that the Americans assumed all along that the most likely culprit was Russia but didn't have enough evidence. Thats why further investigation pursued after the letter to Truman. Thirdly, why would Russia fire these "secret" missiles over the Baltic Sea towards Europe when they had thousands of miles to the east and north to test these rockets. Testing these rockets in that direction would've kept their technology a secret or at best more secretly. Lastly, I don't think we can entire discount the fact that this benefitted the US and its desires to remain in the region. We can all attest to the fact that these nations brought the US and its experitise into the region to help explain these events.
 
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