Georgia Soil Tests

Silverbullet

New Member
I understand what the percentage of aluminum in the earth's crust is. But, when your farm soil samples test higher than this number ON THE SURFACE, something is not normal.
Losing several total crops last year, corn and tomatoes, I had it tested. Asking for a few other tests, the lab was shocked to see the results.
You cannot explain away this sudden change in soil samples. Too many other people and farmers are experiencing the same thing.
I admit you cannot see the aluminum particles on the soil, but they are definitely there.
The question is who is the head of the snake here? Will they answer questions and why are they doing whatever it is they are doing?
If this is some type of experiment, it is absolutely harmful to the citizens.
Furthermore, I have lost a number of friends in the last two years to UNDIAGNOSED respiratory disease. My daughter was also a victim of this event. She was a strong athletic type and after over a year of carrying an oxygen bottle every where she went, she is almost back to a normal life. She is 45 years old. Another of her friends has had lung transplants and neither of these wonderful, healthy women were smokers.
My cousin, never a smoker, has been to Johns Hopkins in NYC almost a dozen times with similar symptoms. He cant breathe.
His lungs are failing and one of the most renowned medical establishments in the world has no clue.
Two of these people live in Georgia, one in Pennsylvania and another, dead at age 46, lived in Houston, Tx.
What is going on people?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Silverbullet, what were the actual reported values of aluminum? And what is normal for that area?
 

Silverbullet

New Member
I could possibly go back to them and ask. I was told the values were at least 45% above what they would have considered to be 'normal' for this area. We dont have any type of aluminum manufacturing facility within hundreds of miles. Do you have a take (I just found out about this today) on why Monsanto has developed an aluminum resistant seed?

Mine cant be from any type of high water or such event because I am 125' above all water levels in the area and have been here for 20 years, never any surface water on our plateau.

Our corn crop was perfectly healthy as far as the stalks go but all the corn was deformed. I has always been (We save our own seed) a productive non hybrid variety. Tomatoes (Cherokee purple and brandywine) were non existent although there was a normal blossom count. We do have beehives for pollination of our crops. We had no pears for the first time in over 12 years, normal blossom count. Most shallow root plants, except blueberries which have a cover of about 1.5 feet of mulch and leaves, died. All the raspberry plants are dead.

All of our conservatory plants produced as normal. Watered with well water and also all is organic. Oranges, grapefruit, pineapple, limes, lemons, bananas all indoor citrus is fine. No rain gets to them at all.
 

Silverbullet

New Member
PS: Also moving our fish tanks into a new indoor conservatory. Cant keep doing this. I have been farming organic since 1967. Never had any of these experiences ever before.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
I could possibly go back to them and ask. I was told the values were at least 45% above what they would have considered to be 'normal' for this area. We dont have any type of aluminum manufacturing facility within hundreds of miles. Do you have a take (I just found out about this today) on why Monsanto has developed an aluminum resistant seed?

Hi Silverbullet, aluminum toxicity can be a problem in very acidic soils, where the aluminum (which is normally present in most soils) becomes much more soluble as Al+++ ions. Different components of the soil are more or less soluble/plant-available at different ranges of pH. See Acid Soils and Aluminum Toxicity. This limits the usefulness of large areas of acidic but otherwise good agricultural land in some parts of the world, thus the development of aluminum-resistant lines.

Who did your testing? Can you get a copy of the results?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I could possibly go back to them and ask. I was told the values were at least 45% above what they would have considered to be 'normal' for this area. We dont have any type of aluminum manufacturing facility within hundreds of miles. Do you have a take (I just found out about this today) on why Monsanto has developed an aluminum resistant seed?

See explanation for that here:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/341-Debunked-Monsanto-s-Aluminum-Resistant-GMOs-and-Chemtrails

The aluminum issue has been extensively discussed here. But it's hard to get a take on your situation without knowing exactly what they numbers are you are talking about, and exactly what was measured and why.
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
silverbullet,
What is your location. We would check to see if others nearby had similar problems. Unless you are willing to document your case, nobody benefits.
Monsanto hasn't developed an aluminum resistant seed, but the Brazilian Government did because the have always had naturally occurring aluminum toxicity in their soil. Unless your soil is below pH 05 you should have no problem, so there is probably another explanation.

Come back with real information and maybe this can be figured out.
 

Silverbullet

New Member
I would suppose my primary question here is quite simple. I dont use chem ferts, only my own organics from my chicken manure. PH is around 6.7. I save ashes and use some lime that I crush myself from local stone when needed. Suddenly, after growing most of my own food for most of my life, I cant grow anything. Located in the Georgia Piedmont, south of Atlanta. What I'M interested in here is some possibilities or solutions. Anybody got any? You pretty much know my circumstances. I will look up the test. It was performed back in July/August.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I'd be looking for local changes to upwind industry as a possible source of air pollutants, and talking to local agricultural groups about their experience.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I would suppose my primary question here is quite simple. I dont use chem ferts, only my own organics from my chicken manure. PH is around 6.7. I save ashes and use some lime that I crush myself from local stone when needed. Suddenly, after growing most of my own food for most of my life, I cant grow anything. Located in the Georgia Piedmont, south of Atlanta. What I'M interested in here is some possibilities or solutions. Anybody got any? You pretty much know my circumstances. I will look up the test. It was performed back in July/August.

Like Mike says, you should talk to some local experts. Maybe these guys:
http://www.caes.uga.edu/
http://www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/fieldcrops/forages/soils/SP.html

I'd note though that if it were from some aerial spraying, then the effect would be widespread and even, and we would have heard a lot more about it. How are your neighbors doing? Have you tested for deficiencies? Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium?
 

Silverbullet

New Member
Also patented, with rights granted now to the United States Government, is the following and most critical is the genetic changes can be spread into other species,the thing we have all been concerned about with terminator seed:


USPTO # 7,582,809

ABSTRACT

The major aluminum tolerance gene, the SbMATE gene, encodes a root citrate efflux transporter that is Al-inducible at the level of gene transcription and is also Al-activated at the level of protein function. High level of expression of the SbMATE gene and the protein was found in roots. SbMATE orthologs with high degree of sequence homology were found in other higher plants, including rice. Successful transformation of Arabidopsis provides strong evidence that SbMATE can work across species to enhance tolerance to Al in other important crops grown in localities worldwide where Al.sup.3+ cations are present in acid soils and are toxic to plants.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I apologize for taking up so much space here, but no one seems to know this is a real problem. Read and learn.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5003186

We are familiar with the various arguments. I've been looking at the chemtrail theroy for over five years, other have looked at it much longer. We've seen things like that patent come up literally hundreds of times.

Patents don't prove usage. There's no evidence of actual spraying.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Also patented, with rights granted now to the United States Government, is the following and most critical is the genetic changes can be spread into other species,the thing we have all been concerned about with terminator seed:


USPTO # 7,582,809

ABSTRACT

The major aluminum tolerance gene, the SbMATE gene, encodes a root citrate efflux transporter that is Al-inducible at the level of gene transcription and is also Al-activated at the level of protein function. High level of expression of the SbMATE gene and the protein was found in roots. SbMATE orthologs with high degree of sequence homology were found in other higher plants, including rice. Successful transformation of Arabidopsis provides strong evidence that SbMATE can work across species to enhance tolerance to Al in other important crops grown in localities worldwide where Al.sup.3+ cations are present in acid soils and are toxic to plants.

One thing at a time please SB. If you want to discuss something, then ask a question, and discuss it. Spamming with endless separate issues is not going to help.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
We've looked extensively at the claims about aluminum, Monsanto, and the geoengineering patent.
You can start with this, comment if anything is incorrect or not understandable:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/341-Debunked-Monsanto-s-Aluminum-Resistant-GMOs-and-Chemtrails

This link is to a google map showing organic farms in Georgia.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...yYHIBw&usg=AFQjCNFLiiMLXBUTj5wlmOONgVB-tHqKRA

There are many in your area. Pick the one nearest to you and tell us the link, and I will ask them if they have had similar problems. If not, your problem is highly localized, likely individual, and could not be associated with a stratospheric geoengineerng claim.

Even if your soil had high aluminum, at a pH of 6.5 none would be available.

The plant patent you mention is for a gene found by reseach which occurs naturally in sorghum that gives sorghum its aluminum resistance. That gene "can work across species" only through genetic engineering methods, or else it would have already worked its way "across species naturally. You seem to have misunderstood the terminology.
 
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Silverbullet

New Member
Hiya Happy Monday,
I dont have a clue. Im going to start growing everything indoors. (conservatory) It is the only way I can control the environment. My first conservatory has been very successful. All citrus. So Im going to do it with everything else, except the corn. Dont have room for that. And the ultimate question is if I knew, could I do anything about it?
 

HappyMonday

Moderator
Hiya Happy Monday,
I dont have a clue. Im going to start growing everything indoors. (conservatory) It is the only way I can control the environment. My first conservatory has been very successful. All citrus. So Im going to do it with everything else, except the corn. Dont have room for that. And the ultimate question is if I knew, could I do anything about it?

I see. It's just that the Welsbach patent is one of the 'smoking guns' of chemtrail theory, and your posting of it seemed a little incongruous.

Do you believe in the chemtrail conspiracy? I'm sorry if I've missed you establishing this elsewhere...
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Mention of Welsbach materials, no mention of locality, aluminum, units, measure? Hmmm... I wonder if that's all we are going to get. And what "Q" is...
 

Silverbullet

New Member
They are within a percentage or less of being right on the money. The other test I had done was by a private lab. The U. S. Soil Conservation Service evidently doesnt do the testing for 'unusual components'. I had the other lab test for things you wouldnt normally test for in a soil sample.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
They are within a percentage or less of being right on the money. The other test I had done was by a private lab. The U. S. Soil Conservation Service evidently doesnt do the testing for 'unusual components'. I had the other lab test for things you wouldnt normally test for in a soil sample.

So, what was the result for aluminum?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
They are within a percentage or less of being right on the money. The other test I had done was by a private lab. The U.S. Soil Conservation Service evidently doesnt do the testing for 'unusual components'. I had the other lab test for things you wouldnt normally test for in a soil sample.
Before you continue, could you please answer the following questions:
1. Where are you, roughly?
2. Where is the aluminum figure?
3. What does "Q" stand for?
4. What units do the figures represent?
 

solrey

Senior Member.
Granite mining in the Piedmont region might explain seemingly high aluminum levels in the soil.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5572540_georgia-granite-mines.html

The Piedmont area, where granite is most plentiful in Georgia, stretches from Savannah to the Broad River.

The aluminum saturation index is one of three classifications of granite.

http://petrology.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/11/2033.full

This geochemical classification of granitic rocks is based upon three variables. These are FeO/(FeO + MgO) = Fe-number [or FeOtot/(FeOtot + MgO) = Fe*], the modified alkali–lime index (MALI) (Na2O + K2O – CaO) and the aluminum saturation index (ASI) [Al/(Ca – 1·67P + Na + K)].

A mention of Southern Piedmont soils and granite:

http://www.ga.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/soils/red.html

Soils in much of Georgia, particularly the Southern Piedmont region of North Georgia, developed in materials weathered primarily from granite and gneiss. These rocks are black, white, and gray, and are relatively low in bases, or natural fertility. Georgia has a climate of warm (hot) temperatures and high rainfall, so there has been intense weathering of the rocks over the years. High rainfall has leached out most of the bases that were present.

Materials that remain are composed mostly of iron, aluminum, and silica, and it is the iron that gives the soils the red color.

Then there's also dust transport from the Southwest, Midwest, and even coal mining country to the north, as elucidated in an article about a recent dust plume settling on Georgia from the plains.

http://wizarmy.11alive.com/news/weather/141415-giant-dust-plume-moves-plains

Also, the winds around 1000ft, as you can see down below, have been howling across most of Alabama and NW Georgia this afternoon and has transported the dust into this part of the country!

SB, you said you use ashes to amend the soil. What kind of wood was burned? Some trees have a high tolerance to aluminum.

http://www.plantstress.com/articles/toxicity_i/Al toxicity.pdf


In a third group, Al tolerance is directly associated with Al accumulation by the tops; such plants have high internal tolerance to Al particularly pine trees, tea and mangroves.

SB, have you contacted other local agriculturalists or the extension service?

Being an avid gardener, I'm curious as to the scale of your operation as well.

cheers
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
The list of elements there is basically a list of soil micronutrients. Aluminum would not usually be included in such a list, because it's not a plant nutrient. So, was additional testing done beyond what is listed there?
 

Silverbullet

New Member
Jazzy,
In the Georgia Piedmont south of Atlanta. You must have missed that in an earlier post. Did you miss anything else of importance?
Al concentration: 4.9 Um. Measured in mass rather than weight. I suppose due to the light weight of Al.
It only takes, as I am told, a 1 or 2 point rise in concentration to destroy any crop. And it has been determined the uptake of Al or its presence in the soil decreases the amount of water/nutrients the plant can uptake. Unfortunately it also has a toxic effect on other soil dwellers such as bacteria, worms, etc. So the MO of the effect of Al is to decrease the uptake of vital nutrients. Another clue common to my situation, which I also mentioned earlier, is the plant looks healthy but does not fruit/bear.
"Q" is likely a metal, probably silvery white or metallic gray in color, but not able to be proven to be Al. It currently exists as a non permanent/proven element on the atomic chart.
The numbers posted were from tests from my soil additives, organic and in %.


I havent made any statements about the chemtrails other than there is a USPTO patent which includes some of the elements claimed to be accumulating an a more than normal rate in various states by different posters. I dont really care what the problem is as long as I can figure a way to continue to grow my food.

Here is the summation, as I recollect, in a nutshell.
So why would we be finding aluminum traces "above normal expected for your area" on the surface of soil with a ph of 6.7?

How many of you posters here on this topic are farmers?
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Al concentration: 4.9 Um. Measured in mass rather than weight. I suppose due to the light weight of Al.
That would probably be uM, as in micromolar (a measure of concentration in solution). So this would be soluble Al only. Who did the testing?
Silverbullet said:
It only takes, as I am told, a 1 or 2 point rise in concentration to destroy any crop.
No, there's a range of tolerances for different plants.
Silverbullet said:
And it has been determined the uptake of Al or its presence in the soil decreases the amount of water/nutrients the plant can uptake.
Aluminum is abundant in most soils. It's the availability/solubility of Al as Al+++ that's involved in toxicity, and that is primarily driven by pH.
Silverbullet said:
The numbers posted were from tests from my soil additives, organic and in %.
Not clear on how these were relevant, then.
Silverbullet said:
Here is the summation, as I recollect, in a nutshell. It has been demonstrated that the relationship between soil solution pH and soluble aluminum concentrations and demonstrated that above a pH of 5.0 soluble aluminum is not measured (Figure 7.2). This data supports the conclusion that at a soil pH of 5.0 and higher, soluble aluminum does not occur and toxicity associated with aluminum in soils is not expected. Mulder et al. (1989). So why would we be finding aluminum traces "above normal expected for your area" on the surface of soil with a ph of 6.7?
Here's the graph you were looking for, note that it's in millimoles/cubic meter, not the same units:
Al solubility.jpg
I'm a little puzzled by your statement "surface of soil". Were you just scraping off of the surface? Was the pH measured with the same sample?

What you have to understand is that it's not that there's more aluminum in acid soils - it just that with lower pH, it becomes more soluble, and thus able to interact with plants. Your test result doesn't show you the total amount of Al in your soil, but rather the concentration of soluble Al.
silverbullet said:
How many of you posters here on this topic are farmers?
Not a farmer, but I do work in the agricultural sciences.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
silverbullet said:
Al concentration: 4.9 Um. Measured in mass rather than weight.
Concentration is a ratio. Mass is not concentration. Something fishy about this.

silverbullet said:
"Q" is likely a metal, probably silvery white or metallic gray in color, but not able to be proven to be Al. It currently exists as a non permanent/proven element on the atomic chart.

Sounds like nonsense.


silverbullet said:
The numbers posted were from tests from my soil additives, organic and in %

You previously said this was a soil test, not a test of a soil amendment.
I want to see the actual test, and I asked you to identify a known organic farm close to your location for comparison, which you have not done.
There is a lot which doesn't make sense here, solely because you aren't properly documenting your case. Is this intentional?
Are you joking with us? It is starting to seem like it to me, with all the changes and things which don't add up, discrepancies.
Yes, I am critical, but that is what it takes when you come with incomplete information which doesn't make sense, has discrepancies, and when stories change.

Yes, I have farmed as a profession in both the tropics and subtropics, but I am currently working as an engineer. I have some college level ag courses including soil science. Jazzy is an avid permaculturist. Just post the actual test so it can be considered, and identify a working organic farm in your area for reference.
If not, why not?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
My cousin, never a smoker, has been to Johns Hopkins in NYC almost a dozen times with similar symptoms. He cant breathe.
His lungs are failing and one of the most renowned medical establishments in the world has no clue.

Your cousin has been to John's Hopkins in NYC almost a dozen times, eh?

Maybe in a parallel universe.......;)
 

solrey

Senior Member.
"Q" is likely a metal, probably silvery white or metallic gray in color, but not able to be proven to be Al. It currently exists as a non permanent/proven element on the atomic chart.

Nope, there is no element with the symbol "q", even as a placeholder. The letter q only appears, not as the symbol itself, but as one of the letters in the symbol for the placeholder name for element 114, ununquadium, which has the symbol Uuq.

In appearance, it is likely a metal, probably silvery white or metallic gray in color.

Sound familiar? That's from the following link:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_letter_Q_appear_on_the_periodic_table

But Uuq has been discovered and named Flerovium.

The discovery of ununquadium was recognized by JWG of IUPAC on 1 June 2011, along with that of ununhexium.[13] According to the vice-director of JINR,[15] the Dubna team chose to name element 114 flerovium (symbol Fl)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flerovium

Flerovium DOES NOT EXIST IN NATURE. It has to be produced in an accelerator and the most stable isotope only lasts for a couple of seconds.

Source: Flerovium / Ununquadium is a synthetic radioactive metal, created via nuclear bombardment, and has only been produced in minute amounts. Flerovium is produced by bombarding 244Pu with 48Ca in a heavy ion accelerator.

Isotopes: Flerovium has 5 isotopes whose half-lives are known, with mass numbers from 285 to 289. None are stable. The most stable isotope is 289Fl, with a half-life of 2.6 seconds.

Like Jazzy, I would also identify myself as a permaculturist. Also, see my post .


Ditto that...
 
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Silverbullet

New Member
Im certainly appalled at the demeanor of the comments relating to my situation. It is without a doubt the largest concentration of egocentrics Ive ever encountered. Im sure my experience is not worthy. I have been a plant researcher for over twenty years. Looking for some answers or suggestions, I mistakenly came here. My innovative discoveries enabled me to retire at age 45, over twenty years ago and I havent gotten a paycheck since. Ive been involved in volunteer environmental projects world wide. Ive tried court cases, although Im not an attorney but I do read about 7000 words per minute and have a photo mem. And just one example, I invented my first operational solar energy system mounted on a house and producing energy in 1967. Then tens of thousands more. Not my only invention, by far.
As I said, compared to you folks, Im not worthy. The only helpful suggestion was concerning granite. My house/farm sits on a piece of orphan Stone Mountain granite. It was bare thirty years ago but now is plush and green supporting all types of plant life. It is 125' above the surroundings. Yes, I did sample from the surface and below the roots of my spoiled corn crop. Aluminum anomalies were from the surface soil.
Im not sure I have time for all this. Im busy building a new conservatory. What are you guys doing? Well, never mind, Adios Farewell Goodbye Good Luck So Long.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
My house/farm sits on a piece of orphan Stone Mountain granite.
Then Solrey's post No. 30 (oops and of course Belfrey's post no. 34, sorry) probably answers your question. IMO acid rain* is leaching your granite. The source can be far way from you - some town or industrial complex. Good luck with that.

* Which means you merely have to make your soil more alkaline by adding lime. It's possible to maintain your soil alkalinity so that it would never be able, ever, to release its aluminum. Problem solved.
 
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