From the Emerald Isles: Clare Daly slams Obama as a "war criminal"

Grieves

Senior Member
A member of Parliament goes on a bit of a tirade regarding Obama's recent visit. As she addresses several issues that come up here often, I figured I'd share it. Lady's got some chops.
 
J

Joe

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Feisty red head she is , and she is 100% correct . IMO of course and hers
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I find she's most spot-on regarding the hypocrisy of claiming to be 'the wind at freedom's back' while supporting forces in Syria that, if triumphant, would inevitably see women's rights in that country set back a century or more. Assad might be a vicious prick, but that hardly has him standing out among the leaders of nations, and many Americans seem to fail to realize they're supporting the ousting of a secular regime that treats women as something like equals, while backing forces that would much rather see them treated as possessions comparative to livestock, only with a dress-code.
 

mynym

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I find she's most spot-on regarding the hypocrisy of claiming to be 'the wind at freedom's back' while supporting forces in Syria...

Question, why do you suppose that America is doing that?

This seems likely to me:
I.e. it's a relic of the Cold War and so forth. There's a lot of speculation about the petrodollar (banksters, a powerful faction) and Israel (Zionists, a powerful faction) but it seems to me that this was planned long ago from within the military industrial complex as a matter of Empire, as Clark seems to say. So various factions may be interested in creating war , supporting it or positioning themselves in a way to profit from false flags and so forth. But it's really because America is a global Empire by "neocon"/"neoliberal" design... and that's that. It'll either evolve into the final global government and United State or it'll fall apart like other Empires have.

It's not as if it's been the worst Empire in the world, in any case. I mean, it's not as if the Russians or Chinese would have necessarily done much better. But America does seem to be a part of the "Anglo Empire" and everything that follows that, including the stygian stench. Most Americans try not to smell it... but it's stinking more and more these days.
 

Mick West

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Staff member
Clarke's anecdote of seven countries (beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan) by 2007 turned out not to fully come to pass. Did plans change, or was it never really a plan, and more just one of those thought experiments that analysts like to do?
 

Oxymoron

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Clarke's anecdote of seven countries (beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan) by 2007 turned out not to fully come to pass. Did plans change, or was it never really a plan, and more just one of those thought experiments that analysts like to do?

Perhaps it is a plan still in progress... just taking longer than hoped or expected?
 

mynym

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Did plans change, or was it never really a plan, and more just one of those thought experiments that analysts like to do?

Some of the stuff he said sounded like it was mixed in with the opinions of an analyst and so forth.

But overall, it's fairly accurate even if "the base" get to choose between a shock and awe cowboy or a peace price winner to lead from behind while secretly assassinating any who hate Honey Boo Boo America for its freedoms and so forth. Whoever wins elections their hair turns gray, they break campaign promises... and they wind up doing the same overall things geopolitically even if they use different means. That seems to be the nature of the Empire. So it's likely that the next candidate will be the same as as these "war criminals." (It's easy to say that, when you're an Irish firebrand and it's not your hair turning gray. But I have to agree, they are criminals.)

It's the specific timing of things in a complex world that's worth a fortune, though. Same thing with anything, so everything I just wrote may be worthless. But at least it may give me a vague sense of what's going on in the world for now.

I bet you $20 that Iran will not be destabilized in the next 5 years.

That's just it. It's the timing that's worth a fortune, isn't it? It's the same thing with a scientific theory, if it's not rigorously specified and subject to verification/falsification then it becomes worth less and less. A satire: "The Strait of Hormuz will close and the debtopacalypse of the petrodollar will hit sometime within the next decade. No, it'll be within your lifespan... or somethin' and stuff." It's a long way from encrypting information in the language of mathematics and verifying that it has explanatory power with respect to formations of matter. But that's the way people and other organisms usually are, not as entirely explicable as some seem to imagine.

So truth is, it's likely that no one really knows. And I include myself in that. It's just that some people are "higher information content" than others in Honey Boo Boo America. For instance, everyone here that would bother or care enough to read a forum designed to produce accurate information is already higher information content than most. Not that that is saying much, unfortunately.
 

lee h oswald

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I bet you $20 that Iran will not be destabilized in the next 5 years.
Presumably you've not heard of the sanctions currently imposed on Iran? Just how 'destabilized' does it need to be before you win your 20 bucks? I mean, is it based on how many people need to undergo surgery without anaesthetic or maybe how many infants need to be malnourished; or how many starve to death? How would you define an infant? What's the measure here?
 

lee h oswald

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Regime change by internal uprising or external military action.
Regime change, eh? That's a favourite verbal chestnut of the neo-liberal warmonger, isn't it? What I'm asking is how many dead children does it take for you to win your twenty? But 'dead-children' of the non-worthy (the official enemy) don't get counted - they're not even in the lexicon. They get edited out - into the memory hole.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
not enough Honey Boo Boo

What's Honey Boo Boo America exactly? Is it the new hate-word for 'white bread', middle class, bible-belt, 'middle america' bourgeoisie?
How did it get such a stupid label? It tells me nothing.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Regime change, eh? That's a favourite verbal chestnut of the neo-liberal warmonger, isn't it? What I'm asking is how many dead children does it take for you to win your twenty? But 'dead-children' of the non-worthy (the official enemy) don't get counted - they're not even in the lexicon. They get edited out - into the memory hole.

I'm not betting about dead children. I'm betting about if something on Clarke's list comes to pass.
 

pseacraft

Active Member
Wesley Clark is a quack, as in piss poor leader. I think you all are giving him far too much consideration, I know very few who served under him would pay him any mind. His poor grasp of reality cost us as an operating force in the Balkans.
 

lee h oswald

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What's Honey Boo Boo America exactly? Is it the new hate-word for 'white bread', middle class, bible-belt, 'middle america' bourgeoisie? How did it get such a stupid label? It tells me nothing.
But if Terry had written it, it'd likely have been your 'signature'.
 

lee h oswald

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I'm not betting about dead children. I'm betting about if something on Clarke's list comes to pass.
That's exactly what you're betting on, get real. You obviously don't know about Iran sanctions - or just 'prefer' not to admit they exist.by ignoring them? Anyway - maybe you should start a new thread for that - it's just a bit off topic, your betting habits. I agree with Clare - Obama's a war criminal and in line for hypocrite of the year. What do you think?
 

Mick West

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Staff member
That's exactly what you're betting on, get real. You obviously don't know about Iran sanctions - or just 'prefer' not to admit they exist.by ignoring them? Anyway - maybe you should start a new thread for that - it's just a bit off topic, your betting habits. I agree with Clare - Obama's a war criminal and in line for hypocrite of the year. What do you think?

I think she makes some good points, but is rather hyperbolic.

From what I know about it, I'm against the drone program. My feeling is that it's an infected band-aid. But then I don't really know.
 

Oxymoron

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Question, why do you suppose that America is doing that?

This seems likely to me:

That is one hell of a video... he really nails it. I had forgotten about it... now how terrible is that... there is so much going on that I manage to forget something as intrinsic as that.
 

Oxymoron

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I bet you $20 that Iran will not be destabilized in the next 5 years.

As Lee says, it is already massively destabilised and the people are suffering terribly. It is exactly the same tactic that was used on Iraq and resulted in millions dying and suffering before it was weakened enough for the coup de gras of the invasion and occupation and rule by proxy and seizure of it's assets by the west's corporations.

Yes Saddam was despicable but are we any better?
 

pseacraft

Active Member
As Lee says, it is already massively destabilised and the people are suffering terribly.

I'd like to see some proof of this. How many Iranian nationals who actually live there do you know personally? I know several here in Cyprus and many more in the UAE and their families have no issues from the sanctions. Iran gets around nearly all of the UN sanctions and the people are far from suffering from them. The Persian people are wonderful, they are only suffering from a shitty government much like the rest of the world. If the sanctions worked then Iran would not have new Russian and Chinese Air Defense systems and military aircraft. I highly doubt our main power plant on Cyprus would have been blown up by over 200 tons of high order explosives that Iran was shipping to the Hezbollah - the shit should never have made it this far. Destabilized my ass.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Oxy blames the US and the UK for all the ills of the world it seems. We denied children food, in the oil for food program. He excuses Sadam and his corrupt government of any of the blame.
 

mynym

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From what I know about it, I'm against the drone program. My feeling is that it's an infected band-aid.

How would you feel about the possibility of using directed energy weapons to "vaporize" possible Iranian nuclear sites? Twinkle, twinkle.. little satellite in the sky, zing! (???)

Random note, someone should do a study on how likely it is for fine and upstanding Mormons/Masons to be involved in NASA and/or incorporated into the military industrial complex. (The Mormon mafia almost got Obama on Benghazi... I'd imagine. But I'm glad that Romney isn't president. Seriously. All this is from my perspective as a simple fellow. I'm pretty much an iconic Cave Man* according to Masonic creation myths... of course. Whoa, the illusions of ordered brain events emerging from a void of nothing but chaos! Imagine that.)

*"When I see a solar eclipse, like the one I went to last year in Hawaii, I think 'Oh no! Is the moon eating the sun?' I don't know. Because I'm a caveman -- that's the way I think." --Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer

But then I don't really know.

Me neither.

Generally wish people would stick to the Constitution because it was an ingenious and clever way of dealing with the fact that psychopaths are drawn to power/control closer to the top where the all seeing eye is, as the Founders knew. Or in modern times, closer to the "top secret" surveillance state where the drones are flying around with their all seeing eyes in the sky. (At least, until someone winks... because there's always the human element.)
 

mynym

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Oxy blames the US and the UK for all the ills of the world it seems.

That would be the case with any superpower, mainly because it's usually true.

We denied children food, in the oil for food program.

Here's an interesting contrast having to do with perspectives:

Madeline Albright before seeing things from a different and less psychopathic perspective on the Grand Chessboard.

After:

Side note.

He excuses Sadam and his corrupt government of any of the blame.

Shrug. Most of it is a matter of perspective. And I doubt that you're really imagining things from his perspective accurately.

Side note, on things being a matter of perspective...
 

mynym

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I highly doubt our main power plant on Cyprus would have been blown up by over 200 tons of high order explosives that Iran was shipping to the Hezbollah...

Confiscating the Cypriot's bank accounts and the spontaneous combustion of a weapons depot of non-aligned powers by happenstance... that might be beneficial, from the perspective of some aligned powers. In any case, mental note... try to avoid living next to places where explosives are being stored. After all, you never know how hot it might get outside or how many spontaneous fires there may be.

The Evangelos Florakis Naval Base explosion in Mari occurred on 11 July 2011, when 98 containers of explosives that had been stored for 2½ years in the sun on the Evangelos Florakis Naval Base near Zygi self-detonated. The resulting explosion killed 13 people, and damaged all of the buildings in Zygi, the island’s largest power station, then responsible for supplying over half of Cyprus’ electricity.
....
The Cypriot government declined offers from Germany, the United Kingdom and the United States to remove or dispose of the material, fearing adverse reaction from Syria. [2] The government had instead requested that the UN effect the removal, but claimed that its request had been rejected.
...
Cyprus’s final compliance, albeit half-hearted, came only after a full-court international press from the UN Security Council and EU. Cyprus did not win any favours with the US or UN for its acquiescence.
Wikileaks

...the shit should never have made it this far.

Excrement happens, especially with different groups of psychopaths involved on all sides and so forth. But all is well that ends well if the way that excrement happens seems to be on your side, I guess. At least, until you smell something and begin to look down on your "side" and see that there's some excrement on it.

Government spokesman Stefanos Stefanou said investigators had ruled out sabotage as a cause for the blast, but wouldn't elaborate. He said there was no risk of further blasts, and experts from abroad will help police and National Guard investigators determine the cause of the explosion. Link

If the experts from abroad are there now then everyone is probably safe again, especially if they get an investigation ongoing. After all, they always have our best interests at heart. In fact, they're probably more likely to have our best interests at heart than local investigators, our local politicians, our local authorities and even our local psychopaths. Ok, just kidding. Even a psychopath will care about you too some extent if you keep their interests local and aligned with your community and not global or aligned with geopolitics, just saying.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I bet you $20 that Iran will not be destabilized in the next 5 years.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/senate-votes-to-back-possible-strike-on-iran-nuclear-weapon-program/
“If the Government of Israel is compelled to take military action in legitimate self-defense against Iran’s nuclear weapons program, the United States Government should stand with Israel and provide, in accordance with United States law and the constitutional responsibility of Congress to authorize the use of military force, diplomatic, military, and economic support to the Government of Israel in its defense of its territory, people, and existence,” the resolution reads.

I admire your twenty dollars of confidence in saner minds prevailing, but certainly don't share it.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Will you take the bet then?
Nah. If I lost I'd be out 20 bucks, and I don't think I'm quite cynical enough yet to accept people in Iran being bombed, presumably the deciding factor, as a win.
 

lee h oswald

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I'd like to see some proof of this. How many Iranian nationals who actually live there do you know personally? I know several here in Cyprus and many more in the UAE and their families have no issues from the sanctions. Iran gets around nearly all of the UN sanctions and the people are far from suffering from them. The Persian people are wonderful, they are only suffering from a shitty government much like the rest of the world. If the sanctions worked then Iran would not have new Russian and Chinese Air Defense systems and military aircraft. I highly doubt our main power plant on Cyprus would have been blown up by over 200 tons of high order explosives that Iran was shipping to the Hezbollah - the shit should never have made it this far. Destabilized my ass.
If you'd really 'like' to see some proof - why not try a Google search? I know information is hard to come by - when you don't want to find it. But try 'Iran sanctions effects' and you'll get a meagre ten million seven hundred thousand pages to look at - if you really like. News for iran sanctions effects US Sees Sanctions Impact On Iranian Politics NPR ‎- 6 days ago WASHINGTON (AP) — American officials are hailing the election of an Iranian president who vows to seek relief from international sanctions as ... US sees impact of sanctions on Iran politics The Japan News‎ - 2 days ago US officials: Rowhani election shows Iran sanctions are working Haaretz‎ - 6 days ago U.S. sanctions against Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._sanctions_against_Iran‎ Jump to Effects and criticism – [edit]. Many of the Iran sanctions programs are administered by the United States of the Treasury Office of Foreign Assets ... Sanctions against Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iran‎ Jump to Effects – Effects[edit]. See also: Smuggling in Iran. See also: Economy of Iran. U.S. and EU leaders are trying to tighten restrictions on business ... Iran's Deteriorating Economy: An Analysis of the Economic Impact of ... www.iar-gwu.org/node/428‎ Iran's Deteriorating Economy: An Analysis of the Economic Impact of Western Sanctions. Iran's economy is rapidly going downhill, but where resentment will be ... [PDF] Iran Sanctions - Federation of American Scientists www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS20871.pdf‎ by K Katzman - 2013 - Cited by 32 - Related articles Jun 13, 2013 – international community on Iran's nuclear program. And, the strategic effects of sanctions might be abating as Iran adjusts to them economically ... Iran sanctions 'having devastating effect' - Telegraph www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › Middle East › Iran Sep 27, 2012 – Benjamin Netanyahu's increasingly bellicose position towards Iran has been undermined by his own foreign ministry after it reported that ... The Impact of Sanctions on Iran's Nuclear Program | Arms Control ... www.armscontrol.org/events/RoleSanctionsIranNuclear‎ Today our focus is the impact of sanctions on Iran's nuclear program. Sanctions constitute a very important part of the international community's strategy to deal ... Iranian economy feeling effects of Western sanctions - UPI.com www.upi.com › Business News › Energy Resources‎ May 1, 2013 – Western sanctions on Iran are biting deeper than ever with oil exports tumbling to a 26-year low only weeks before the Iranian presidential ... Iranians Feel Bite of Sanctions, Blame U.S., Not Own Leaders www.gallup.com/.../iranians-feel-bite-sanctions-blame-not-own-leaders.asp... Feb 7, 2013 – Effects of sanctions on Iranians' livelihoods.gif ... The effect of sanctions on Iran appears to go beyond macroeconomic factors: Iranians' ... The Counterproductive Effects of Leveling Sanctions on Iran www.huffingtonpost.com/.../the-counterproductive-eff_b_2578434.html‎ Feb 6, 2013 – The regime in power rarely feels the effects of sanctions. Instead, it is the average citizen who bears the burden of sanctions. Ironically, the ... Report: More Iran sanctions won't work - Leigh Munsil - POLITICO.com www.politico.com/.../report-more-iran-sanctions-wont-work-92...‎ by Leigh Munsil - in 426 Google+ circles Jun 5, 2013 – But Iran's populace doesn't tie the economic effects of U.S. sanctions to the nuclear program, and therefore, the measures aren't working as ... Searches related to iran sanctions effects first sanctions on iran how sanctions affect iran impact of sanctions against iran impact of iranian sanctions sanctions on iran working list of sanctions against iran what countries have sanctions against iran iranian embargo
 

Mick West

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Nah. If I lost I'd be out 20 bucks, and I don't think I'm quite cynical enough yet to accept people in Iran being bombed, presumably the deciding factor, as a win.

I'd take some kind of peaceful popular uprising. Basically some significant shift in the power structure that you think was deliberately influenced by the US. Bombing is optional.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I'd take some kind of peaceful popular uprising. Basically some significant shift in the power structure that you think was deliberately influenced by the US.
Like the one in Libya?
View attachment 3308

Or the one in Syria?

I've made this suggestion before, but I don't see how a popular uprising, especially a peaceful one, should involve the military/logistical support of foreign powers. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a joint action by Israel and the US was called a 'popular uprising' when and if it happens in the future.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Like the one in Libya?
View attachment 3308

Or the one in Syria?

I've made this suggestion before, but I don't see how a popular uprising, especially a peaceful one, should involve the military/logistical support of foreign powers. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a joint action by Israel and the US was called a 'popular uprising' when and if it happens in the future.

I'd take violent uprising too. My point is that the plan involving lists of countries does not seem to be being carried out.
 

lee h oswald

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David Fraser

Senior Member.
Like the one in Libya?
View attachment 3308

Or the one in Syria?

I've made this suggestion before, but I don't see how a popular uprising, especially a peaceful one, should involve the military/logistical support of foreign powers. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a joint action by Israel and the US was called a 'popular uprising' when and if it happens in the future.

What about Bosnia or Rwanda? The Spanish Civil War could have done with some League of Nations intervention. It really is a difficult point to answer as I used to believe that civil affairs should remain that, but if "Peace keeping" is ineffective should one take sides? A very subjective question and needs to be asked on an individual basis but often Yes.
 

mynym

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Basically some significant shift in the power structure that you think was deliberately influenced by the US.

It was curious when the green revolution was on and Obama didn't have much to say in support of it. But he led from behind in Lybia* and now he wants to arm similar groups of rebels and mercenaries in Syria? I'm still glad that Romney didn't win, otherwise we'd have to fight over Iran's path to the sea... or something like that.

It's enough to make one wish that we had evil geniuses with top secret plans in charge of things, huh? But supposedly we don't, so we're left with people like Romney and Obama. Bummer.

*A satire of Gaddafi, "I'm meeting with Blair and giving up my WMDs... wait, no... I'm giving up my WMDs!" Etc.
 
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