Fire on the SS Noronic as an illustration of possible 9/11 fire effects

Cairenn

Senior Member.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
..However there is no evidence of fire affecting steel skyscrapers because heat is transferred by steel as its a metal and therefore won't weaken as there was 47 core columns all connected...
Please clarify this. Heat does not weaken steel? The heat just gets passed on with no consequence to itself?
 

Alienentity

Active Member
Steel cannot fail from fire. Only thermite/thermate can do that. Nanothermite is extra special so it does it even more better.
;)
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I really wonder what it is that blacksmiths use to soften iron, in a coal fired forge. Do they add 'pixie dust'?

I have spent a couple of hours a day helping a smith, I thought it was heat.
 
I see its twisted and warped yes , Im no expert in steel fires but the energy dissipates in steel skyscrapers , the more steel the better .
 

gerrycan

Banned
Banned
The steel deck
I don't see a collapse. The vessel was partially taken apart afterwards, and then the hull was refloated, meaning that the structure itself survived the fire. And this is despite the fact that the interior of the ship was lined with oiled wood rather than fireproofed material.
 

gerrycan

Banned
Banned
You mean like the fire in the SS Noronic in 1949 that only took 20 min to turn the steel hull white hot , buckle and sink ?
It took weeks for workers to remove the decks after the fire. You need to examine the pictures that you posted a little more closely, in fact, a LOT more closely, because what you are looking at are pictures of the ship being wrecked by workers after the fire. They spent a long time removing the decks of the ship before they towed the remainder of it away to Hamilton.
Here's one of the pictures that you posted:

Note the 2 pieces of steel on the RHS of the rectangular opening.
Here's a better quality pic of them from below....
s0372_ss0100_it0498.jpg Here's a close up of the deformed tubular steel piece.
bent tubular noronic.jpg 2014-01-12 08-19-31.jpg
For perspective, here is a HQ shot of the dining room of the SS Noronic......
7209543076_ff2937a9e9_k.jpg
And now, note the shape of the only deformed element in this picture.......
s0372_ss0100_it0482.jpg


Tell me what, in your opinion as a "fire officer" is common in the failures that you are attributing to fire, and if you can, show me a girder that has failed catastrophically on the SS Noronic.
 
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Hitstirrer

Active Member
So I was right then. Others can claim that a coal forge demonstrates that steel can be melted but if I mention surviving woodburner stoves/BBQs/Ovens and saucepans, my post is deleted. Instead we have a new thread ludicrously attempting to compare a ship, loaded with fuel and soft furnishings, and with all its steel with no fireproofing -- with tall buildings. Trust me, ships are not built like a steelframe building. I would certainly expect to see lightweight steel framing in a ship buckling if its coal bunker caught fire.

But however hard you squirm around you will not get hydrocarbon fires in an open atmosphere to melt steel as it does in a forge. And you will not get office (or ships) furniture to burn hot enough or long enough to overcome a large highrise steel frame structure. Even attempting to compare the two in such a thread is risible.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I think he's saying it can't be a fire because the wooden lifeboats didn't burn?

However it seems that the fire was mostly contained within the steel hull, only "breaking through" some windows as illustrated by the photo on this page- so the damage to the boats is probably entirely from radiated heat.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
A building that had it's core fireproofing blown away in the crash and that was full or flammable items like office furnishings and synthetic fabrics. Many synthetic fabrics burn at a higher temp than natural ones. There is a reason that anyone working with an open flame like in soldering, glass working, or blacksmithing will only wear natural fibers.

Ignoring that steel softens and bends in heat is silly. it does,
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
if I mention surviving woodburner stoves/BBQs/Ovens and saucepans, my post is deleted
It should be, if you continually ignore the fact that the material is never allowed to get to its critical weakening temperature in such products because it is being continually cooled in air.

you will not get hydrocarbon fires in an open atmosphere to melt steel as it does in a forge.
Steel cannot be melted in a forge.

And you will not get office (or ships) furniture to burn hot enough or long enough to overcome a large highrise steel frame structure. Even attempting to compare the two in such a thread is risible.
What is risible is that you write this when the evidence is before you.

.
 

Mark Barrington

Active Member
I don't think those are wooden lifeboats. Corrugated steel had been used to lifeboats for quite some time before that that looks similar to the lapping used in wooden boats. Here's an example: http://amhistory.si.edu/onthewater/collection/AF_1645(14).html

These are probably the Francis Life Car brand of lifeboat: [url]http://amhistory.si.edu/onthewater/assets/object/full/2009-5587.jpg[/URL]

I don't think there's much chance they're made of word, since wood does not distort like that under heat.
 

gerrycan

Banned
Banned
I don't think those are wooden lifeboats. Corrugated steel had been used to lifeboats for quite some time before that that looks similar to the lapping used in wooden boats. Here's an example: http://amhistory.si.edu/onthewater/collection/AF_1645(14).html

These are probably the Francis Life Car brand of lifeboat: http://amhistory.si.edu/onthewater/assets/object/full/2009-5587.jpg

I don't think there's much chance they're made of word, since wood does not distort like that under heat.
Yeah, fair point. I agree that these look like steel life boats.
 

FactChecker

New Member
I always enjoy
But however hard you squirm around you will not get hydrocarbon fires in an open atmosphere to melt steel as it does in a forge. And you will not get office (or ships) furniture to burn hot enough or long enough to overcome a large highrise steel frame structure. Even attempting to compare the two in such a thread is risible.

So... why do we fireproof the steel girders?

That's the question that always go unanswered and ends this conversation.
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member.
Given the myriad of examples of partial collapses due to fire alone it is cognitive dissonance to then claim that fire cannot ever overcome the ability of steel to carry a load.
 
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