Eyewitness accounts of explosions

Grieves

Senior Member
Thank you. To be fair to you, no other truthers have a clue either.
Yeah, I see that one beaten out a lot. "Solve the crime with a comprehensive list of perpetrators and their means! Otherwise, no reason to suspect any broader crime was carried out whatsoever, and no reason for further investigation!" Pretty goofy stuff.

But Grieves I agree with you about eyewitnesses detailing accounts contrary to the OS....its just that I haven't seen any accounts that are truly contradictoryy...I haven't seen any accounts of people SEEING bombs go off...just that they HEARD explosions...which given the nature of the catastrophe, I think would be expected...in the heat of the battle so-to-speak- I think it is logical and likely that people first conclusion is to think that the explosion or loud noise they heard was a "bomb" when it very well could have been...any number of things- elevators crashing to the ground or any number of combustible materials exploding...but since they were just attacked they assume its a "bomb".
well, try this one, in which firefighters still recovering from a blast-event, one of whom was clearly injured by it, discuss how they experienced first-hand what they describe as secondary explosions within the lobby and AFTER the collision of the planes, when the fires had already been raging. These firefighters seem to have a pretty clear idea of what they're talking about. The blonde didn't break his own nose. These guys aren't alone. There are many reports of secondary explosions in the lobbies of the towers. These are typically blamed on 'jet fuel rushing down the elevator shaft' (a lot of fucking jet-fuel to make such huge explosions so high in the building but then somehow make it down around 100 floors), but that can't possibly account for what these men describe, as they clearly state the fires were already burning above. These men didn't 'just hear' an explosion and get confused, they physically experienced a blast event, and claim to have witnessed resultant injuries and deaths. Shouldn't this testimony alone be enough to warrant a degree of suspicion? I find the last line the injured firefighter, alert and adamantly spoken, is the most telling.
"You people don't understand..." he says, "...any one of these fuckin' buildings could blow up. This ain't done yet." He firmly believes he experienced a bomb.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I see that one beaten out a lot. "Solve the crime with a comprehensive list of perpetrators and their means! Otherwise, no reason to suspect any broader crime was carried out whatsoever, and no reason for further investigation!" Pretty goofy stuff.


well, try this one, in which firefighters still recovering from a blast-event, one of whom was clearly injured by it, discuss how they experienced first-hand what they describe as secondary explosions within the lobby and AFTER the collision of the planes, when the fires had already been raging. These firefighters seem to have a pretty clear idea of what they're talking about. The blonde didn't break his own nose. These guys aren't alone. There are many reports of secondary explosions in the lobbies of the towers. These are typically blamed on 'jet fuel rushing down the elevator shaft' (a lot of fucking jet-fuel to make such huge explosions so high in the building but then somehow make it down around 100 floors), but that can't possibly account for what these men describe, as they clearly state the fires were already burning above. These men didn't 'just hear' an explosion and get confused, they physically experienced a blast event, and claim to have witnessed resultant injuries and deaths. Shouldn't this testimony alone be enough to warrant a degree of suspicion? I find the last line the injured firefighter, alert and adamantly spoken, is the most telling.
"You people don't understand..." he says, "...any one of these fuckin' buildings could blow up. This ain't done yet." He firmly believes he experienced a bomb.

Sure he does, and from his limited perspective that was probably what it seemed like. But there were a lot of people there that day, lots of different reports. There was lots of stuff burning, blowing up, falling hundreds of feet. Of course some of them would think there were bombs. They had no idea what was going on. It was noisy chaos.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Sure he does, and from his limited perspective that was probably what it seemed like. But there were a lot of people there that day, lots of different reports. There was lots of stuff burning, blowing up, falling hundreds of feet. Of course some of them would think there were bombs. They had no idea what was going on. It was noisy chaos.
Right, right... they were just confused. How would trained firemen know the difference between some debris falling around the building they're in and an explosion impacting the very room they're standing in? Perhaps the building just shook, he slipped and hit his face, and mistook all that for an explosive event which brought the lobby down around him and his team. But maybe not, right? Maybe we should consider investigating their claims in a comprehensive fashion, just in case? Naaaaaahhhhhh, fuck it. What's the big deal, right?
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
well, try this one...He firmly believes he experienced a bomb.

of course, he does- he was under the impression they were under attack- the context driven conclusion would be a "bomb"

But how does experiencing loud noises and impacts contradict the OS?

How do random "bombs" in the lobby well before the actual collapses logically contribute to the idea of a CD? is that typical procedure for a CD?

What do you think the effects of a severed elevator falling 50+ floors would be like?

Is it possible that there could have been other things in the WTC that exploded but were not "bombs"?

What typically happens to tall buildings when jet planes are flown into them at 400+ mph?



Why were there no such concomitant explosions associated with WTC 7?

Were WTC 1&2 demolished by a different method than WTC7?







Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.
Content from External Source
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm
 

Grieves

Senior Member
of course, he does- he was under the impression they were under attack- the context driven conclusion would be a "bomb"
They were under attack. Perhaps the context-driven conclusion was reasonable?
But how does experiencing loud noises and impacts contradict the OS?
the OS does not account for these testimonies, nor any of the other many testimonials regarding explosives/explosions, other than to dismiss them without addressing them. The use of 'loud noises and impacts' instead of 'explosions' as they were described is an ever-interesting choice. The guy's speaking clearly. Why twist his words?

How do random "bombs" in the lobby well before the actual collapses logically contribute to the idea of a CD? is that typical procedure for a CD?
Bombing the lobbies would potentially serve to limit/cut off the access of fire-crews/good Samaritans, obstructing escape efforts both for maximum shock-value and minimal material witnesses of the state of the interior, which many survivors suggest was damaged prior to collapse in ways the plane-impact didn't explain.

What do you think the effects of a severed elevator falling 50+ floors would be like?
perhaps dramatic, but apparently not all that explosive.

Is it possible that there could have been other things in the WTC that exploded but were not "bombs"?
Vaguely, but what would instigate such explosions so far from any source of fire?

Why were there no such concomitant explosions associated with WTC 7?
There are reports of hearing/witnessing explosions by civilians/firemen who witnessed/fled from the building 7 collapse. No rescue efforts were taking place in building 7 however, so reports on what was occurring inside the building are scant at best.

Were WTC 1&2 demolished by a different method than WTC7?
It would certainly appear so.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Lots and lots of eyewitness accounts detailing elevators falling and fireballs traveling via shafts...

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.

I’m looking from the lobby up to a mezzanine area or the second floor where they lined up all the people to go up to the rooftop, and I’m looking up expecting something, building parts to be coming down, because I wasn’t quite sure what that noise was.

But I found out later, when the plane came through the building, it cut the hoist ropes, the governor ropes, of (the) 6 and 7 cars, which was the observation cars.

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.
Content from External Source
Firefighter Geroge Kozlowski: We did see bodies that got pulled out of the elevators because all the elevators fell. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110308.PDF


Firefighter Craig Dunne: We proceeded to go into the lobby of tower one. We got in there. The glass was down in the front. There was a gentleman -- you saw people that were jumping from the building. You had to look up and make sure you didn't get hit by any jumpers or anything. We saw a couple of people that were burnt on the outside of the building. There was a gentleman that was burnt inside when we went in. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110490.PDF


Firefighter Peter Fallucca: Before we got in, all the elevators were crashed down in the lobby, and we were going to the stairwell. See all the elevators were crashed down, big slabs of marble on the floor, all the ceiling tiles of the dropped ceiling was falling down, wires hanging. You see wires and stuff hanging inside the elevator shafts, because the doors were blown right off the elevators. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html


FDNY Lieutenant William Walsh: In the center of these two elevator shafts would be the elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That’s where the service [freight] elevator was also. …They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110442.PDF


As he waited for orders, Meldrum, the chauffeur (Fire engine driver), noticed that all windows in the high lobby were blown out. Glass and marble from busted walls littered the floors, crunched underfoot. He caught an occasional whiff of jet fuel, a smell like kerosene, wafting from elevator shafts. On the floor by the elevators he saw burned people. http://www.projo.com/words/st20021016.htm


Lobby
Firefighter David Sandvik: We got down to the lobby, and when we got out of the stairwell, the lobby was deserted. Nobody was down there except the people coming out of our stairwell. We were walking through and the elevator doors were blowing [blown?] off. The lobby was just like a complete mess. I remember grabbing the proby that day and we were looking down the elevator bank and I said, man, this would make a hell of a picture. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110375.PDF


Firefighter John Moribito: I noticed that some of the elevators had been blown out of their shafts. They came down and crashed out of the shaft. They were buckled, and I had noticed that there were people still in the elevators. I believe that they were at that point deceased. Then I saw the lights in both buildings went out, and I heard the rumble. At that point, I didn’t know what was happening, but 2 World Trade Center was collapsing. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110354.PDF
Content from External Source

https://sites.google.com/site/911stories/wtcelevatorshafts
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
They were under attack. Perhaps the context-driven conclusion was reasonable?

Indeed - reasonable to jump to that conclusion- but doesn't necessarily make it accurate...especially in hindsight given what we know about what did happen and what did explode and cause loud noises.

the OS does not account for these testimonies, nor any of the other many testimonials regarding explosives/explosions, other than to dismiss them without addressing them.


Not true:

A three year study into the collapse of the towers found that airplane debris sliced through utility shafts in both towers' cores, creating conduits for burning jet fuel and fiery destruction throughout the buildings.

Supplement to the report notes that elevator lobbies throughout the building were particularly affected by the airplane impacts, likely by the excess jet fuel ignited by the crash pouring down the elevator shafts.

NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder explains that the burning jet fuel simply followed the path of least resistance. The core of the building is where a large number of elevator shafts and stairwells were damaged. These provided an easy path for jet fuel to traverse down," Sunder tells Pop Mechanics.

NIST investigators spoke with more than 1,000 survivors and witnesses of the attack as part of their attempt to determine the progression of damage to the buildings. A number of witnesses reported seeing pockets of fire in locations far from floors directly affected by the aircraft impacts.

NIST granted all witnesses anonymity in exchange for their cooperation- One witness, near an elevator between the 40th and 50th floors of the North Tower recalled,

"I saw the elevator in front of me had flames coming out of it. The elevator was closed but the flames came from the front where the doors meet and on the sides...I saw a chandelier shaking; it was really moving...black smoke started filling the corridor, it got really dense fast." And a survivor in the basement of the North Tower at the time of the attack recalled, "I saw a big bright orange color coming through the basement with the smoke...A fireball came shooting out the basement door."

Investigators heard additional reports that some elevators "slammed right down" to the ground floor in loud violent crashes. The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died", says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. On the day of the attacks, the French brothers were making a documentary about Tony Benetatos, a rookie NY City firefighter blocks from the WTC. Benetatos became one of the first responders to the N Tower. As Jules Naudet followed him into the lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, the filmmaker saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to record.
Content from External Source



The use of 'loud noises and impacts' instead of 'explosions' as they were described is an ever-interesting choice. The guy's speaking clearly. Why twist his words?

Simply pointing out how the loud impact of a falling elevator might be misconstrued as a "bomb".
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Right, right... they were just confused. How would trained firemen know the difference between some debris falling around the building they're in and an explosion impacting the very room they're standing in?

Yes, how would he? Do they train them in "how to recognize what a bomb is like"?

Unless he's previous experience both of:

A) A bomb going off
B) A ton of debris hitting the ground at 100 mph

Then how would he know the difference, especially if it knocks him off his feet and stuns him?
 

Grieves

Senior Member
the OS does not account for these testimonies, nor any of the other many testimonials regarding explosives/explosions, other than to dismiss them without addressing them.


Not true:

Content from external source:

A three year study into the collapse of the towers found that airplane debris sliced through utility shafts in both towers' cores, creating conduits for burning jet fuel and fiery destruction throughout the buildings.

Supplement to the report notes that elevator lobbies throughout the building were particularly affected by the airplane impacts, likely by the excess jet fuel ignited by the crash pouring down the elevator shafts.

NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder explains that the burning jet fuel simply followed the path of least resistance. The core of the building is where a large number of elevator shafts and stairwells were damaged. These provided an easy path for jet fuel to traverse down," Sunder tells Pop Mechanics.

NIST investigators spoke with more than 1,000 survivors and witnesses of the attack as part of their attempt to determine the progression of damage to the buildings. A number of witnesses reported seeing pockets of fire in locations far from floors directly affected by the aircraft impacts.

NIST granted all witnesses anonymity in exchange for their cooperation- One witness, near an elevator between the 40th and 50th floors of the North Tower recalled,

"I saw the elevator in front of me had flames coming out of it. The elevator was closed but the flames came from the front where the doors meet and on the sides...I saw a chandelier shaking; it was really moving...black smoke started filling the corridor, it got really dense fast." And a survivor in the basement of the North Tower at the time of the attack recalled, "I saw a big bright orange color coming through the basement with the smoke...A fireball came shooting out the basement door."

Investigators heard additional reports that some elevators "slammed right down" to the ground floor in loud violent crashes. The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died", says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. On the day of the attacks, the French brothers were making a documentary about Tony Benetatos, a rookie NY City firefighter blocks from the WTC. Benetatos became one of the first responders to the N Tower. As Jules Naudet followed him into the lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, the filmmaker saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to record.
The quote you included does not address the testimonies of these firemen, which cannot be explained by jet-fuel in the elevator shaft. Additionally a previous post detailed why a falling elevator, even one with all of its cables cut, wouldn't be responsible for the extensive damage observed.

Simply pointing out how the loud impact of a falling elevator might be misconstrued as a "bomb".
The above testimonies do not describe a falling elevator, though. The 'falling elevator + jet-fuel' scenario, even with the problems surrounding it, doesn't apply to the event described by these men.

Then how would he know the difference, especially if it knocks him off his feet and stuns him?
A ton of debris hitting the ground outside had the power to smash the interior of the WTC lobby, injuring and killing? The force of high-speed car impacts don't tend to blow out the windows of all the cars on the road around them. I've never heard of a non-explosive collision instigating a shock-wave with a wide destructive range.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Why can't they be explained by jet fuel in the shaft? Seems like pretty much the only thing that could set people on fire inside a moving elevator.

Falling debris can throw up lots of shrapnel when if hit, shattering windows.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
The quote you included does not address the testimonies of these firemen, which cannot be explained by jet-fuel in the elevator shaft. Additionally a previous post detailed why a falling elevator, even one with all of its cables cut, wouldn't be responsible for the extensive damage observed.

The above testimonies do not describe a falling elevator, though. The 'falling elevator + jet-fuel' scenario, even with the problems surrounding it, doesn't apply to the event described by these men.

A ton of debris hitting the ground outside had the power to smash the interior of the WTC lobby, injuring and killing? The force of high-speed car impacts don't tend to blow out the windows of all the cars on the road around them. I've never heard of a non-explosive collision instigating a shock-wave with a wide destructive range.


What?? They described waiting in the lobby and then an explosion "collapsed the whole lobby" - that sounds almost identical to the other descriptions of damage done to the lobby by falling elevators fireballs of jet fuel:

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.
Content from External Source
How do you KNOW they are not describing a falling elevator and/or fireball of jet fuel bursting forth into the lobby? They do not know what they are describing- only an "explosion'- so, how do YOU know.

You really seem to be ignoring/dismissing ALL the numerous accounts of falling elevators and fireballs of jet fuel in the lobby levels...instead cling to vague descriptions of "explosions".

Why?

Can you tell what the impact of an elevator free-falling 100 stories would be like?

Can you tell us what would the effect of a fireball of jet fuel traveling down an elevator shaft have on the lobby? What would it be like to experience it if you were in the lobby?



You seem to put so much stock in the quotes of those 3 firemen in the heat of the moment...are these accounts not equally compelling?

"She was stepping off the elevator when the plane hit," Wertz recalls. "There was an explosion on top of the elevator as if someone had thrown a hand grenade. I jumped out, fell to the floor and looked behind me. I saw the elevator disintegrate in a ball of flames and fall down (the shaft). There was a big hole in the ceiling above the elevator. I saw the cables fold up as if they'd become detached. It took no more than two seconds."
Content from External Source
..a survivor in the basement of the North Tower at the time of the attack recalled, "I saw a big bright orange color coming through the basement with the smoke...A fireball came shooting out the basement door."

Investigators heard additional reports that some elevators "slammed right down" to the ground floor in loud violent crashes. The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died", says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. On the day of the attacks, the French brothers were making a documentary about Tony Benetatos, a rookie NY City firefighter blocks from the WTC. Benetatos became one of the first responders to the N Tower. As Jules Naudet followed him into the lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, the filmmaker saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to record.
Content from External Source
Why do not give as equal weight to this man's account?

 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
What?? They described waiting in the lobby and then an explosion "collapsed the whole lobby" - that sounds almost identical to the other descriptions of damage done to the lobby by falling elevators fireballs of jet fuel:

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.
Content from External Source
How do you KNOW they are not describing a falling elevator and/or fireball of jet fuel bursting forth into the lobby? They do not know what they are describing- only an "explosion'- so, how do YOU know.

Do you really think that elevators fall down a lift shaft in this day and age or even in the 60's or 70's? Maybe in the 30's but they have all sorts of safety features on them now.

Not only that, the lifts did not go all the way up. They were staggered.



So how do you account for that? Are you suggesting the fuel took the lift down, changed elevators 2 or 3 times and exploded just before arriving at the lobby?
 
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SR1419

Senior Member.
Interesting comment from Mr. Jones:

Well you’re talking seconds now. It could take you on an average trip up, if you went non-stop at full speed, these cars, these elevators, the shuttle cars were designed to run at 1,600 foot per minute. I’m not sure how long it took to get up to the 107th floor, full speed. I think it was less, little less than a minute, little over a minute, I believe. But coming down at that rate, you’re free-falling and it’s dead weight, so it came down like a bomb, and that’s what it sounded like.
Content from External Source
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Any idea what causes this at about 1:00 into the video?
It seems to be a pretty strong force. No, it's probably not a bomb...

Viewer discretion is advised.
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
Mick West asked a pertinent question (Post #990, just above):

"@Hitstirrer, In any of the events of building collapse on 9/11, where are the sounds of explosives? They seem to be abundantly absent.

You mean that NIST told you there were no reports of sounds of explosives.

Errrrr -
Mark 2:03. That came from the WTC7 vicinity. Its a long vid - because there were so many reports of explosive events that it takes 2 hrs to list them.

All ignored by the official report.

These people all testified to the official investigations. All of their reports were dismissed, and not even mentioned in the final report, which is why you can now ask that question.

Of course people in here would seek to 'explain' the multiple sounds as being car gas tanks, or propane tanks, or pools of jet fuel, in fact anything except what the victims report experiencing. A Firefighter inside a building that is thrown aside like a rag doll might give you an argument there. But was ignored.

And worse still, you claim that there were no sounds at all, so that you don't need to even postulate an alternative explanation.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Mark 2:03. That came from the WTC7 vicinity. Its a long vid - because there were so many reports of explosive events that it takes 2 hrs to list them.

All ignored by the official report.
Actually if you continue to listen beyond 2:03 up to 2:30 you here the reporter explaining the situation on the ground from the field office, and he states that "what the people (reporters) on the ground don't realize is one of the twin towers has collapsed". There was an incredible amount of confusion on that day and ordinary people lived through extremely horrifying events on that day. We can clearly see that the first tower had collapsed and that these people "who heard explosions" were simply explaining what they heard and "smelled" while the tower was dropping. It had nothing to do with explosions going off and more to do with the sounds of a giant sky scraper collapsing on itself and the typical sounds associated with that.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Please resist the urge to respond sarcastically, it doesn't achieve much. If you disagree, explain your reasons.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Of course. What was I thinking ? Thanks for explaining it to me.
Actually, I misunderstood you and fast forwarded to the 2hr and 3 minute mark, no the 2 minute and 3 second mark. There does appear to be the sound of an explosion or some kind of loud noise.
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
Please resist the urge to respond sarcastically, it doesn't achieve much. If you disagree, explain your reasons.

I will resist. It's hard when you don't also ask @Jason to explain his reasons for 'handwaving' away that video evidence. But you require me to fully explain why I disagree with his armchair conclusion that all those witnesses were imagining things. He just asserts that " It had nothing to do with explosions going off " - zero evidence for that bare assertion but he isn't challenged to provide credible reasons to support his assertion. But I am required to explain fully why I challenge his bare assertion. That's par for the course in here and one reason that I left many months ago.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I will resist. It's hard when you don't also ask @Jason to explain his reasons for 'handwaving' away that video evidence. But you require me to fully explain why I disagree with his armchair conclusion that all those witnesses were imagining things. He just asserts that " It had nothing to do with explosions going off " - zero evidence for that bare assertion but he isn't challenged to provide credible reasons to support his assertion. But I am required to explain fully why I challenge his bare assertion. That's par for the course in here and one reason that I left many months ago.
It's not 'handwaving' away video evidence. I noted that I mistook your time reference and fast forwarded to 2hrs and 3minutes instead of 2minutes and 3 seconds. It is important however to note that what people were hearing in the streets or while in the buildings could have easily been misunderstood, as evidenced in the 2hr 3minute portion of the video you attached where people and reporters were saying they heard explosions but were corrected by the field office because they didn't know the towers fell (which most people probably never thought would've happened at the time). Point being, it was easy to be mistaken on such a tragic day for those on the ground.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I will resist. It's hard when you don't also ask @Jason to explain his reasons for 'handwaving' away that video evidence. But you require me to fully explain why I disagree with his armchair conclusion that all those witnesses were imagining things. He just asserts that " It had nothing to do with explosions going off " - zero evidence for that bare assertion but he isn't challenged to provide credible reasons to support his assertion. But I am required to explain fully why I challenge his bare assertion. That's par for the course in here and one reason that I left many months ago.
I don't think he made a bare assertion, he provided his reference for the comment.
You could have just challenged what you saw as the bare assertion, and explained why you thought it was wrong and yours was right. The conversation didn't advance.
(not that debate on these topics ever really do, but still...)
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
I noted that I mistook your time reference and fast forwarded to 2hrs and 3minutes instead of 2minutes and 3 seconds.

You handwave away the evidence as a result of listening to the media handwaving it away. You are just repeating what you have been told rather than properly investigating on your own behalf and deciding for yourself whether these numerous witnesses heard massive explosions or not.

My time reference was correct at 2 minutes 3 seconds onwards. That huge explosion that so startled the Firemen was nothing to do with the fall of a tower. It came from the direction of WTC7 as can be determined from plotting the location of that phone station. Another vid shows that location after it was plotted, and plays the same clip of that huge explosion. This vid is only 7 mins long. It records many explosions heard. Another interesting interview is made near the end of this 7 minute vid. None of these reports made it into the official reports.

 

Mackdog

Senior Member.
You handwave away the evidence as a result of listening to the media handwaving it away. You are just repeating what you have been told rather than properly investigating on your own behalf and deciding for yourself whether these numerous witnesses heard massive explosions or not.

My time reference was correct at 2 minutes 3 seconds onwards. That huge explosion that so startled the Firemen was nothing to do with the fall of a tower. It came from the direction of WTC7 as can be determined from plotting the location of that phone station. Another vid shows that location after it was plotted, and plays the same clip of that huge explosion. This vid is only 7 mins long. It records many explosions heard. Another interesting interview is made near the end of this 7 minute vid. None of these reports made it into the official reports.

The explosion sound could be either a floor collapsing or a transformer exploding. Wouldn't make sense that a bomb would be planted in the tower if they flew planes into it. I mean, why would they plant a bomb in there? What would the point be?
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
The other day, several people in Saginaw, MI reported an explosion on Bay Road near Boardwalk Liquor Store. My business was outside the evacuation zone, but a bunch of people who had to leave their jobs for the bomb squad to investigate were milling around my parking lot for a half hour or so. In reality, a truck's diesel engine catastrophically failed due to oil and coolant leaks, which can be a fairly loud event with lots of smoke and fire, but is not an explosion. The fact that the majority of witnesses described it as an explosion does not make it an explosion.

Many building collapses are accompanied by reports of explosions from eye witnesses, most of which turn out to be people not actually knowing what a real explosion looks like, and assuming a loud noise with an expanding cloud of smoke and debris must be an explosion because that's how it works in the movies.
 

Chew

Senior Member.
It came from the direction of WTC7 as can be determined from plotting the location of that phone station.

You know what else can be determined from plotting that location? The time of day.

Murray street runs on an azimuth of 120°/300°. See attached kmz file. At 1:40 you can see the shadows of the firemen. The shadows appear to be from about 130°. That corresponds to about 10:34 AM.

You can check the azimuth of the Sun using Heavens-above for Manhattan. Enter the date and time and it will calculate the azimuth of the Sun.

http://www.heavens-above.com/sun.aspx?lat=40.7903&lng=-73.9597&loc=Manhattan&alt=26&tz=EST

If the explosion was the sound of controlled demolition why did it take another 7 hours for the building to collapse?
 

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Hitstirrer

Active Member
That corresponds to about 10:34 AM. If the explosion was the sound of controlled demolition why did it take another 7 hours for the building to collapse?

That sun azimuth exercise was done many years ago. I would agree that the huge explosion heard on that vid was late morning - after the second tower's demise and after dust clearance. I would think it would be a while later than your estimate of 10:34 because all the second tower's dust had settled.The firefighters were checking in to report that they had survived. That explosion we hear on that video was after 10:30 and before 11:00.

But don't forget that Barry Jennings reported being trapped inside WTC7 much earlier by a huge explosion, and that whilst there he heard numerous explosions in the building. He said that he was trapped by a huge explosive event inside WTC7 that demolished a stairway he was actually descending. Crucially, before 9:59 which was when the first tower fell. And that when he and Hess then went back up higher to break a window to shout for help - he saw both towers still there as he did that.

As you infer, that particular explosion wasn't responsible for WTC7 falling down. Perhaps it contributed. Who knows. But this thread is about 'eyewitness accounts of explosives' - and as such the vid must be considered as such evidence.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
But don't forget that Barry Jennings reported being trapped inside WTC7 much earlier by a huge explosion, and that whilst there he heard numerous explosions in the building. He said that he was trapped by a huge explosive event inside WTC7 that demolished a stairway he was actually descending. Crucially, before 9:59 which was when the first tower fell. And that when he and Hess then went back up higher to break a window to shout for help - he saw both towers still there as he did that.

Please don't paraphrase. Quote what he said, and when he said it.
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
Please don't paraphrase. Quote what he said, and when he said it.

I would have thought that Barry Jenning's testimony had been covered multiple times in here. Seems not. So here is him telling it as it was - in his own words - on camera. No paraphrasing. He gives the timeline himself. And the timing of that interview was well after 9/11.

Note that in the intro of that vid it is said that Barry was very wary about speaking like this. Not long after that interview he mysteriously died aged 52. His wife and kids fled and havn't been heard of since. When a 9/11 researcher commissioned a private detective to fully investigate Barry's death that person came back after a few days to return the retainer fee and said that he refused to continue. No explanation was given.

Note that Barry's narrative in this video is exactly what related in my earlier post.

Large explosion inside WTC7 that demolished a stairway he was descending- before any tower fell- but after the second plane had struck. Multiple explosions heard after he was trapped. Could it be that those were what was discussed in post #20. Timings would seem to match.

 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I would have thought that Barry Jenning's testimony had been covered multiple times in here. Seems not. So here is him telling it as it was - in his own words - on camera. No paraphrasing. He gives the timeline himself. And the timing of that interview was well after 9/11.

So how do we know it's accurate, and he's not just remembering the effects of the first collapse?

Eyewitness accounts often conflict. Should we then just pick the ones that match a particular theory?
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
Yet you posted it with absolutely no reference to the time? Interesting.

What is interesting ? The time was irelevent. It was purely posted to show that there was video evidence of massive explosions. Explosions that are being denied.

You decided to leap to the conclusion that I was claiming it was when WTC7 fell. I made no such claim. Go back and re-read my entry. What I wrote was - " Mark 2:03. That came from the WTC7 vicinity ".

It is far more likely that it was one of the explosions that Barry Jennings refers to in my post #36. Most likely at around 11:00 am.
 

Hitstirrer

Active Member
So how do we know it's accurate, and he's not just remembering the effects of the first collapse?

Eyewitness accounts often conflict. Should we then just pick the ones that match a particular theory?

Barry Jennings was filmed on the street soon after he was released from WTC7 having just lived through that traumatic experience. That tends to sear the information in the brain. And there is nothing better than a contemporaneous narrative- on film - with it confirmed by a witness who was one of those who rescued him.

Until hes untimely death he related that identical information many times. He was trapped by an explosion BEFORE any tower fell. And when he broke a window to yell for help both towers were still stood there.

Interestingly, Hess, who was with him on that destroyed stairway, and at the window, confirmed that there was an explosion that caused that. After Jenning's mysterious death he suddenly completely changed his story. Go figure.

So, to answer your question. No we can't pick and choose what narrative to select that suits a particular theory. But isn't that exactly what you are doing ? The official conspiracy theory cannot survive if there were large explosions inside WTC7 before any tower fell. So why do you seek to chose a narrative that supports the official conspiracy theory, written after the passage of much time to ponder on its content, rather than a contemporaneous narrative delivered minutes after the event.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Until hes untimely death he related that identical information many times. He was trapped by an explosion BEFORE any tower fell. And when he broke a window to yell for help both towers were still stood there.
Do you know which side of the building's window he broke to yell for help? Just trying to ascertain if he could see the towers from the window he called for help from.
 
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