Evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved in 9/11

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Oxymoron

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This thread is approaching retirement age. I'm going to do a little housekeeping, moving things into appropriate threads.

I'd like to encourage people to start new threads wherever possible. Long rambling threads like this are just chatting. Rather a waste of time.
It has gotten a bit messy but in fairness a lot of that was in response to direct questions.

Just to finish off on the fake OBL tapes:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bin_laden_tape_a_fake_swiss_lab_says.htm

 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
It has gotten a bit messy but in fairness a lot of that was in response to direct questions.

Just to finish off on the fake OBL tapes:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bin_laden_tape_a_fake_swiss_lab_says.htm


By the tape being fake you are referring to the 2001 tape again. The prison planet piece was written in 2002. For the 2004 tape being fake you cite a couple of web sites which state that he wasn't saying the things he usually says or that said things he wouldn't say. Not a very deep analysis and not very convincing evidence.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Yes, can your analysis of provable bunk in those tapes (which you seem adamant about) be detailed in the bin laden thread?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Yes and 'Popular', (with the government and debunkers), Mechanics still has this bunk on their site to date:

NB Perhaps someone could induce them to remove the bunk... (even if it means closing the site as there is nothing left afterwards) :)
http://rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm


The Chertoffs appear to be very distantly related.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/4220721?click=main_sr

No brutal purge either.

 

Oxymoron

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I copy-pasted info relevant to this topic from wiki in response to a question in this thread, which I'll repeat here...
The story seems to have changed to him just being a figure of ideological support to one of direct involvement in the planning, if the transcripts are to be believed.
But he was suspected of planning something for a while so he was an obvious suspect.
So he'd made explicit threats, had set-up and financed an organisation with the sole aim of waging attacks on America, denied involvement but approved of the general gist of the attack initially, and then later accepted responsibility for direct involvement.
I have 'liked' this post because in general I think it reasonably fair right up to the last emboldened

I don't think anyone is suggesting that 'he was not actively fighting against the U.S' but the fake tapes and admissions are a ridiculous.

Debunkers like to say, 'He admitted it'... which is ludicrous because it goes against everything you 'say you stand for'.

So what is it about these tapes that make you debunkers happy that they are real?

Please set out a case as to their authenticity.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
I still Don't see any evidence that all (or any of the 'accepted') tapes are fake.

Please be more clear, if you want me to accept that.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well I think the claim they are fake is the one that requires evidence as it is the more complicated of the two scenarios (ie, extraordinary claims... etc).
It is reasonable to assume they are authentic, given the known context.
However, if you can present good evidence they are obviously faked, that would be great. Why are they ridiculous?
 

Landru

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Staff member
I have 'liked' this post because in general I think it reasonably fair right up to the last emboldened

I don't think anyone is suggesting that 'he was not actively fighting against the U.S' but the fake tapes and admissions are a ridiculous.

Debunkers like to say, 'He admitted it'... which is ludicrous because it goes against everything you 'say you stand for'.

So what is it about these tapes that make you debunkers happy that they are real?

Please set out a case as to their authenticity.

I'm here to remove bunk. The assertions that the 2004 tape was fake are bunk or based on bunk.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
I'm here to remove bunk. The assertions that the 2004 tape was fake are bunk or based on bunk.
Well it is not good enough to say, 'I say it is bunk therefore it is bunk', otherwise that is bunk of itself.
It's like saying 'The NSA are not spying on your phone calls and emails because they say they are not'. That is bunk.

I suggest that you attempt to validate the tape as genuine... which I wish you good luck with as it is clearly fake along with a multitude of other fake tapes and quotations attributed to OBL, likely by the CIA disinfo/propaganda machine.



One of your co debunkers even has the audacity to claim it is bunk that the U.S supplied WMD's to Saddam... and this is supposed to be a debunking site!


 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Folks please tell us what is in You Tubes. It takes me at least 5 min to watch a cute puppy/kitten YT that is 2-3 min long. I refuse to spend a half hour trying to listen to what I feel is nonsense.

Please sum it up and if needed tell us where in the tape the important part is.
 

Met Watch

Moderator
Well it is not good enough to say, 'I say it is bunk therefore it is bunk', otherwise that is bunk of itself.
It's like saying 'The NSA are not spying on your phone calls and emails because they say they are not'. That is bunk.

I suggest that you attempt to validate the tape as genuine... which I wish you good luck with as it is clearly fake along with a multitude of other fake tapes and quotations attributed to OBL, likely by the CIA disinfo/propaganda machine.



One of your co debunkers even has the audacity to claim it is bunk that the U.S supplied WMD's to Saddam... and this is supposed to be a debunking site!




Landru has already explained why there is not enough credible evidence to say the 2004 video is fake. You, however, seem to be content with saying "it is clearly fake" and then just expecting us to believe you after tossing a video at us with no explanation or hint at what to look for.

Oxy, break down the 2004 video. Show us how it is clearly fake. Maybe side by side comparisons of the guy in the video to Osama, etc.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
10 seconds of diligent research and I found:

ABC news reporting on the video:

http://abcnews.go.com/Archives/video/oct-29-2004-osama-bin-laden-video-message-11700438

Wikipedia has an entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Osama_bin_Laden_video

CBS News:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=652383n

CNN News:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/bin.laden.transcript/

NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/30/international/middleeast/30qaeda.html?_r=0

In some cases you get the video playing in the background and in some the transcript is reported. Doesn't seem very very rare to me. Again, do you have any evidence that the video reported and (in some cases shown) in many places is fake?
Plane suggests you have posted evidence as to it's authenticity. Is this supposed to be the evidence that it is genuine, because if it is, it doesn't prove anything other than a video of someone blurry, talking about dreams exists. As much as you may desperately want it to, your links do not prove it's authenticity. As a debunker you should be very aware of that.

I suggest this is blatent propaganda and does nothing for the reputation of this site.

So I ask again, please demonstrate that this patently false video is genuine.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Plane suggests you have posted evidence as to it's authenticity. Is this supposed to be the evidence that it is genuine, because if it is, it doesn't prove anything other than a video of someone blurry, talking about dreams exists. As much as you may desperately want it to, your links do not prove it's authenticity. As a debunker you should be very aware of that.

I suggest this is blatent propaganda and does nothing for the reputation of this site.

So I ask again, please demonstrate that this patently false video is genuine.

You say the video is patently false. Any evidence?

The list I provided, if you remember, was at your request since you couldn't find it on your own. I didn't suggest it was genuine just that there is no credible evidence to support that it is not. The 2004 video is generally accepted to be genuine which is in contrast to the 2001 video.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
You say the video is patently false. Any evidence?

The list I provided, if you remember, was at your request since you couldn't find it on your own. I didn't suggest it was genuine just that there is no credible evidence to support that it is not. The 2004 video is generally accepted to be genuine which is in contrast to the 2001 video.

There is a lot of evidence that they faked bin laden videos and pictures and audio.

You have provided zero evidence that it is genuine other than an unsubstantiated assertion that 'it is generally accepted as genuine'.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21530470/...was-bin-ladens-last-video-faked/#.UdXpw23iT9M

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape2.html

This is a genuine video of him, I think the differences speak for themselves.


More fake... reading from script... dyed beard etc


If you beleive any of these videos... wel what can I say?


Seems to have aged one heluvva lot in a year, (2010 to 2011) lol.

But what about this one... lots of people don't 'generally accept the video as genuine'


Of course there is also the allegations that bin laden worked for cia after 9/11


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013...nd-his-top-lieutenant-2-months-after-911.html



So I say again, what is your evidence that it is genuine? Who are these people who 'accept it as genuine'?

Much of the public do not accept it as genuine.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned

http://www.globalresearch.ca/interview-with-osama-bin-laden-denies-his-involvement-in-9-11/24697
http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_19.htm

Of course there is also the Official Story of his death in 2011 which many people believe was a hoax by Obama and the evidence underpinning that is very strong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden_death_conspiracy_theories
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Of course there is also the Official Story of his death in 2011 which many people believe was a hoax by Obama and the evidence underpinning that is very strong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden_death_conspiracy_theories

Would you mind putting in a little more effort to your posts that relate directly to a dispute by quoting the passages that to you hold the best proof? It just makes things easier when it's all laid out in the thread. Link posting is good, selecting and quoting text and a link post is even better.

(edit... the 'burial at sea' decision was a shockingly bad one, why on earth would they do that given the amount of speculation they knew would arise? F**king idiots.)
 

Oxymoron

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you spelled "weak as" wrong - you got the "s" and "n" right, but there's no "t", "r", "o" or "g" in "weak as"
Thanks for that Mike... not quite sure what you are referring to but never mind. I thought it was bad policy to remark upon peoples typo's on this forum which is not the only reason I have never offered any correction on yours. :)

But if you are suggesting 'weak' evidence, perhaps you could elucidate further.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
Would you mind putting in a little more effort to your posts that relate directly to a dispute by quoting the passages that to you hold the best proof? It just makes things easier when it's all laid out in the thread. Link posting is good, selecting and quoting text and a link post is even better.

(edit... the 'burial at sea' decision was a shockingly bad one, why on earth would they do that given the amount of speculation they knew would arise? F**king idiots.)
You should think yourself lucky that i don't just say 'something' and then insist it is a fact because I have said it. :)
 

MikeC

Closed Account
It depends whether the typos change the meaning or not - when you type "strong evidence" then the evidence is actually "weak as ...(pick any mass produced American beer)" then clearly the meaning has changed.

The evidence of a cover up is weak because it is al based around the absence of a body - as Pete Tar says the decision to bury OBL at sea was idiotic - but if idiotic decisions proved conspiracies existed then there'd be nothing else in the world!
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
It depends whether the typos change the meaning or not - when you type "strong evidence" then the evidence is actually "weak as ...(pick any mass produced American beer)" then clearly the meaning has changed.

The evidence of a cover up is weak because it is al based around the absence of a body - as Pete Tar says the decision to bury OBL at sea was idiotic - but if idiotic decisions proved conspiracies existed then there'd be nothing else in the world!
Sorry Mike but that is bunk... there is much evidence that it was a hoax... multiple versions of events from the seal team members, bin laden begging for mercy, hiding behind wife etc... well that didn't look good in hindsight did it?

Changed to Bin laden going for a gun.... yeah

Fake Obama et al watching it live on tv monitors

Locals saying they knew the guy who lived there and it wasn't bin laden

There were loads of other stuff as well... the full hoax BS. But you want to 'debunk' all that... make us all believe in the government mantra lol.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Sorry Mike but that is bunk... there is much evidence that it was a hoax... multiple versions of events from the seal team members, bin laden begging for mercy, hiding behind wife etc... well that didn't look good in hindsight did it?

Changed to Bin laden going for a gun.... yeah

Fake Obama et al watching it live on tv monitors

Locals saying they knew the guy who lived there and it wasn't bin laden

There were loads of other stuff as well... the full hoax BS. But you want to 'debunk' all that... make us all believe in the government mantra lol.
Oh my god... just present the evidence for what you're claiming so we can evaluate it or at least know exactly what you're referring to for your opinion. Yes, we probably wont be convinced, but at least you'll have done your part.
You should think yourself lucky that i don't just say 'something' and then insist it is a fact because I have said it. :)
Well my luck ran out I guess.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Oh my god... just present the evidence for what you're claiming so we can evaluate it or at least know exactly what you're referring to for your opinion. Yes, we probably wont be convinced, but at least you'll have done your part.

Well my luck ran out I guess.
I have presented more than a sufficiency of evidence to back up my assertions... about time you debunkers did some work and present some evidence backing up your unsubstantiated claims.

I look forward to reading your considered dissertations.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Sorry Mike but that is bunk... there is much evidence that it was a hoax... multiple versions of events from the seal team members, bin laden begging for mercy, hiding behind wife etc... well that didn't look good in hindsight did it?

Changed to Bin laden going for a gun.... yeah

conflicting stores are not actually evidence that the killing was a hoax - they are evidence of conflicting stories - lots of eyewitness have conflicting stories about what they saw but the act still took place - sorry about that.

Fake Obama et al watching it live on tv monitors

Still not actually evidence of a hoax....

Locals saying they knew the guy who lived there and it wasn't bin laden

well it wasn't like he used his real name, and it also wasn't actually like he walked the streets either so how is it they knew him?

where is het actual evidence for any of this -

There were loads of other stuff as well... the full hoax BS. But you want to 'debunk' all that... make us all believe in the government mantra lol.

I'm happy to debunk it, if I can, when you present it. However so far you are confusing "saying something" with "evidence"

And you are also confusing "debunking" with "making someone believe something" - debunking is about removing bunk - nothing more or less - I don't care whether you believe eth "government mantra" or not - my interest is in ensuring that whatever bunk is out there, from any side, is identified .....and preferably removed from people's consideration although that's probably too hard to do.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I have presented more than a sufficiency of evidence to back up my assertions...

sorry - I must have missed it - can you point to het posts please, because all I see on this page is you "saying stuff"


about time you debunkers did some work and present some evidence backing up your unsubstantiated claims.

I look forward to reading your considered dissertations.

WE haven't made any claims - debunking is not about making claims - it is about identifying bunk - yet again you show us you do not know what debunking it.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I am with Mike on this. I haven't seen anything to debunk. I have seen your opinion, a lot.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
There is a lot of evidence that they faked bin laden videos and pictures and audio.

You have provided zero evidence that it is genuine other than an unsubstantiated assertion that 'it is generally accepted as genuine'.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21530470/...was-bin-ladens-last-video-faked/#.UdXpw23iT9M

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape2.html

snipped for space
[/ex]

So I say again, what is your evidence that it is genuine? Who are these people who 'accept it as genuine'?

Much of the public do not accept it as genuine.
The first link talks about the 2007 video and doesn't question the authenticity of the 2004 video. The second link doesn't make a serious (expert) examination of the video. What is your evidence it is not genuine?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member

http://www.globalresearch.ca/interview-with-osama-bin-laden-denies-his-involvement-in-9-11/24697
http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_19.htm

Of course there is also the Official Story of his death in 2011 which many people believe was a hoax by Obama and the evidence underpinning that is very strong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden_death_conspiracy_theories
Here is my favorite theory.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Would you mind putting in a little more effort to your posts that relate directly to a dispute by quoting the passages that to you hold the best proof? It just makes things easier when it's all laid out in the thread. Link posting is good, selecting and quoting text and a link post is even better.

(edit... the 'burial at sea' decision was a shockingly bad one, why on earth would they do that given the amount of speculation they knew would arise? F**king idiots.)
Hey Pete, at the time, I was a bit puzzled by the handling if the corpse...but looking back on it, given the circumstances, I'm not really sure I can come
up with any other solution that wouldn't produce more worse consequences. In the big picture do I really care that "speculation would arise" ? Not really.
First, in the big picture, speculation is relatively harmless, and second: if we've learned nothing from the CT crowd, it;'s that they will just make up new wackadoodle claims no matter
how obvious the truth is. If the gov filmed every moment, in 1080p, of how they disposed of OBL, and aired it internationally, the CT crowd would still say "It's faked!"...as per their script.

For my money, since OBL would have massive incentive to show that he is still alive, and potent, re. his jihad against the United States,
every day since 5/2/11 that the world doesn't see a new video of him, alive, is an additional piece of evidence that what the U.S. gov said happened to him, actually happened to him.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Yeah true, that simple logic should be obvious enough to put the matter to rest.

I guess it seems a simple and obvious thing for the need to give closure to such an important figure to American minds in the form of a confirmed 'death mask', but there must have been some reasoning going on behind the scenes that they wanted to avoid claims of taunting and avoid inflaming a determined retaliation. I wonder if they discussed whether the public would believe them though.
 
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