Efficiency and Innovation in State Owned vs. Private Companies

Cairenn

Senior Member.
[Mick: Tread spilt and retitled from: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/177-GMO-conspiracy-theories/page9]


Do you realize the environmental problems that government owned businesses cause? Start with Chernobyl, that plant would have never been allowed to be built in the US. The melt down at Fukishima was of 3 reactors and yet there was less radiation released. That was because they were built by business with government oversight (they should have been build differently). Look at the problems in Eastern Europe and the USSR.

Can you give us 3 major products that came from a state owned industry?
 
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Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Do you realize the environmental problems that government owned businesses cause? Start with Chernobyl, that plant would have never been allowed to be built in the US. The melt down at Fukishima was of 3 reactors and yet there was less radiation released. That was because they were built by business with government oversight (they should have been build differently). Look at the problems in Eastern Europe and the USSR.

Can you give us 3 major products that came from a state owned industry?

Trains... Gas.... Oil:)
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Really. NONE of those were developed by the government. Try again.

Open Joint Stock Company Gazprom (Открытое Акционерное Общество «Газпром», OAO Gazprom Russian: ОАО «Газпром», IPA:[ɡɐsˈprom]) is the largest extractor of natural gas and one of the largest companies in the world. Its headquarters are in the Cheryomushki District, South-Western Administrative Okrug, Moscow.[3] Its name is a contraction of Russian: Газовая промышленность, tr. Gazovaya Promyshlennost, meaning "gas industry". Gazprom was created in 1989 when the Ministry of Gas Industry of the Soviet Union transformed itself into a corporation, keeping all its assets intact. The company was later privatized in part, but currently the Russian government holds most of the control in its hands.

NSB is the national Norwegian railway company, and offers excellent train services in Norway and between Oslo and Gothenburg.

A national oil company (NOC) is an oil company fully or in the majority owned by a national government. According to the United States Energy Information Administration, NOCs accounted for 52% global oil production and controlled 88% of proven oil reserves in 2007.[1]
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I asked about DEVELOPING a product. Was oil and gas drilling develop by a government? Were trains developed by the government?

First why shouldn't they? They can just STEAL the work of private companies.


But reserves is NOT the same as producing oil and gas. The only state owned companies that are not seeing their production decrease is Norway and Brazil's. Both of those work closely with the major private oil companies.

Advances like fracking and 3D seismic have ALL been developed by non state owned companies.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
some for sure - but in the UK they were all initially private companies much like the USA. And the early ones invariably started as small single line concerns. Once the utility of rail was recognised governments would normally grant concessions of some sort - tax relief, or subsidies or contracts to build or operate services, or prizes or guaranteed monopolies. Many were eventually turned into state monopolies.

Private companies started the German, French, and American rail systems.

In Russia the first railway was built by the state, but by the 1880's they were all privately owned and operated due to incompetence of the Russian govt.

In betwen these 2 systems lies the case of Turkey - where foreign companies built its system under Govt patronage.

It is true to say that railways were "national projects" to some extent - but Governments did not develop trains - which was the actual question asked!
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Railways are not trains. That is like saying that cars are a state owned item because highways are.

First came the TRAIN, then railroads were needed, and many of they were built in a mix of public and private partnership.
 

someGuy

New Member
Railways are not trains. That is like saying that cars are a state owned item because highways are.

First came the TRAIN, then railroads were needed, and many of they were built in a mix of public and private partnership.


The French rail system could not develop successfully without the involvement of the state. Unlike Great Britain or the United States, France had no large substantial industrial base willing to pay for railways to bring its products to new markets. French investment capital also lagged considerably behind the amounts available in Great Britain. Early troubles, such as the failed Paris to Rouen line, only reinforced the deep conservatism of the French banks. French private industry had not the strength to construct a railway industry unassisted by government. Thus, during the period of inaction by the government before 1842, the French built only small and scattered railway lines.
The eventual relationship created between the French rail system and the government formed a compromise between two competing options:

  1. the completely laissez-faire free-market system that had created Britain's elaborate rail network
  2. a government-built and government-controlled railway, such as had grown up in Belgium.
France employed a mixture of these two models to construct its railways, but eventually turned definitively to the side of government control. The relationships between the government and private rail companies became complicated, with many conflicts and disagreements between the two groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_France
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Developing infrastructure for transportation, has most often been more of a government job. Roads, even before there were cars, railroads, ports and airports ALL take governmental help. But all benefit from them as well.

I still want to know a product developed by a state owned industry.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
First came the TRAIN, then railroads were needed, and many of they were built in a mix of public and private partnership.

Sorry about this, but every day is a schoolday, right? ;)

Before steam locomotives came along, "railways" were human, animal or stationary engine powered

I still want to know a product developed by a state owned industry

Oil leaks and unreliability, developed by British Leyland!! (he says, bitterly thinking of the unrepairable damage to the crankshaft of his Triumph Stag viewed at the mechanic's workshop last night! :))
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Well lets see who DEVELOPED the tank.

Tanks, score another one from private industry.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
It would have been nice if you had LISTED the product instead of posting pictures of them.

I will give you assault rifles and submarines. Assault rifles are a useful product for war, but not for much else. Submarines have shown a usefulness in deep sea exploration, but those were ones developed by private industry or in conjunction with colleges.

I am assuming the other picture is an early computer. The military may have helped in it's development, but they built on the the foundation of many advances by private companies. The modern computer with the semiconductor chip is another private company development.

I will add the A and H bomb to the list.

Darn it, it seems that government owned companies develop products that KILL, not that are useful in other ways.

One 'service' would be the internet, but it is companies that have refined it and made it useful to more folks.
 

someGuy

New Member
Well lets see who DEVELOPED the tank.

Tanks, score another one from private industry.



Oh yeah, so now you're comparing this:


To this:



What about comparing the mark1 to a Tab Book H160 ?





According to your logic both were developped by Frederick Williams and Tom Kilburn...
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
That is why it would have been NICE if you had listed a product, not just posted a picture.

The Minitell was an advance, but it failed when Companies produced an improved product. Why didn't they continue to develop it? Because it was state owned. It got stuck, just like the state owned oil companies are now. It is very typical of what happens in a state owned company

I imagine it was virus and spy ware free because of the lack of systems that could hack into it.
 

someGuy

New Member
That is why it would have been NICE if you had listed a product, not just posted a picture.
Because you can't recognize a FAMAS, or read "EuroMillion"...
If you google "french tank", first thing you'll find is the Leclerc AMX-56

The Minitell was an advance, but it failed when Companies produced an improved product. Why didn't they continue to develop it? Because it was state owned. It got stuck, just like the state owned oil companies are now. It is very typical of what happens in a state owned company
Ho yeah, I forgot Atari, Amstrad and Amiga were state owned
Like if private companies NEVER fail for THE EXACT SAME REASONS



I imagine it was virus and spy ware free because of the lack of systems that could hack into it.
Because, it's not a computer, that's why
It's a terminal
What computers will probably become btw

The only way to"hack" a minitel, was to hack the minitel network itself
Not impossible, but very unlikely
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I have never found a study of tanks to be that interesting, the air war of WW l, that is interesting to me. Sorry I doubt that many American women, in their 60s would recognize a French tank

Posting something that is not common knowledge, so you can do a 'gotcha' on someone. I think that you had to really DIG to find something. That being so, you MADE my point for me. Companies produce products that we want and need and that are helpful even life saving. State owned companies rarely do and when they do, they fail to improve them and the product disappears to the advanced designs of private industry.
 

someGuy

New Member
I have never found a study of tanks to be that interesting, the air war of WW l, that is interesting to me. Sorry I doubt that many American women, in their 60s would recognize a French tank
If you look on the side of this tank, you'll see france, and in the back, the flag, and Paris
I'm not that good at History, but I can recognize an allied flag from WWII

Posting something that is not common knowledge, so you can do a 'gotcha' on someone. I think that you had to really DIG to find something.
Actually I'm the one doing the digging, yeah
And no, those are only the one I've found because I know them
Yea, I'm an horrible french

That being so, you MADE my point for me.
Actually, you asked for "a product developed by a state owned industry."
And you got 5, but still, you refuse to acknowledge that state owned industries can develop products
What should I conclude then ?
That you're not a man enough to recognize that state owned industries can develop products ?

Companies produce products that we want and need and that are helpful even life saving.
Not only
They also product massive amounts of shit that nobody need in the first place, unhealthy, and then tell you that you need those through ads campaigns or even forced sales

State owned companies rarely do and when they do, they fail to improve them and the product disappears to the advanced designs of private industry.
They rarely do, yes, and when they do they are subject to the same problems as the private sector
Again, Amstrad, Atari and Amiga failed for the same reasons the minitel failed

Besides, do you really think the US army went to Iraq to fight for US citizens freedom and safety ?
Don't you think there were some huge corporate interests pushing for this war?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
No I think we went to war in Iraq, because someone wanted to prove to his Daddy that he could do something that Dad couldn't.

George W failed in almost every business he ever owned.

A handful out of MILLIONS of products---and several of those NOT consumer products, but military ones. Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

Interesting
More interesting info
And it doesn't seem that anyone else wants them. I wonder why?

I will tell one thing that I feel that France does better than the US does and that is your health care system.
 

someGuy

New Member
Interesting fact also is that France Telecom, also known as Orange survived the death of Minitel
Pretty much like Amstrad did
Today after they dumped the minitel, FT switched to mobiles, like many, and after they dumped the CPC(computer) and the GX4000 (console) Amstrad switched to computer hardware only

Both survived, but had major failures


And about military failures...


The ADE 651...
It's a total scam, not just "technical problems" and it's 100% private sector
"Millionaire businessman jailed for fake bomb detector scam"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-...years-for-selling-fake-bomb-detectors/4666734

Helicopter crash blamed on mechanical failure
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/19/iraq.military

Again
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/mar/28/tp-mechanical-failure-in-copter-crash/


And for the arm sales, you know that it is more about politics than equipment quality right ?
You are aware that when you sign an arm deal with a country, you also sign for diplomatic and military protection ?
Russians and Syria ?


On a side note, Exxon nailed down one of Iraq's largest oil fields in Qurna, while Halliburton and other U.S. companies dominated development subcontracts valued at $150 billion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/business/energy-environment/15iht-srerussia15.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

While the Iraq war, will cost 2.2 to 6 trillion to the tax payers (depends on future interest payments)
http://www.businessinsider.com/iraq-war-facts-numbers-stats-total-2013-3

It was a good deal for the private sector, no doubt
 

joelb79

Active Member
How does any of this relate to GMO's? Seems I come back to threads a day later and have no clue what the point of the thread is anymore (based on title).
 

someGuy

New Member
How does any of this relate to GMO's? Seems I come back to threads a day later and have no clue what the point of the thread is anymore (based on title).

lol yeah, it's a bit out of topic if you missed this particular point:
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/41643

Basically, the point revolves around the influence corporations have on states regulations and the revolving doors existing between those private corporations and the political power/administrations
...
Which then turned into a private companies VS public companies debate, which is not really relevant for that matter
 
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Grieves

Senior Member
No I think we went to war in Iraq, because someone wanted to prove to his Daddy that he could do something that Dad couldn't.
A presidential dynasty completes a long-standing neo-conservative and corporate objective to the direct financial benefit of their family and those they've brought into office, and you figure that's just a father-son rivalry?

How does any of this relate to GMO's? Seems I come back to threads a day later and have no clue what the point of the thread is anymore (based on title).
GMO's, and more specifically the patenting of them, are a mechanism through which corporations such as Monsanto can gain and are gaining an inordinate level of influence over agriculture and the cost of food. Many embrace GMO's for the potential they have to be a powerful weapon for combating global hunger, but fail to consider the necessity of the will to use them for that purpose, which is something corporate culture lacks. Thus the discussion has turned toward the ethics of corporate culture, and the dangerous nature of the developing system which some call 'corporatism'. That being said, I have absolutely no idea why the discussion regarding government invention vs. private invention is pertinent.
 

someGuy

New Member
Just because someone says something is the worst, doesn't make it so. Take the BP blowout, for example. It was larger than the Ixtoc blow out of 1979, but the damage it did was a fraction of Ixtoc's. Some of that was luck, some the well location, and some improved technology.

I would also suggest the contrary...

Like you know, good old fashioned government denial
http://www.20minutes.fr/article/823...-la-gestion-de-la-crise-par-les-autorites.php






April 26: at 1:23 am, the number 4 of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in the USSR (now Ukraine) reactor exploded during a verification phase of security systems. The reactor design and build technical errors seem to be the cause of this major accident.

April 27: the inhabitants of the nearest city Pripyat, are removed, soon followed by the 100,000 inhabitants of the surrounding area.

April 28: Sweden alert the international community by registering a sharp increase in radioactivity on its territory.

April 29: the Chernobyl radioactive cloud arrives in France.

April 30: Pierre Pellerin, head of SCPRI (Central Service for Protection against ionizing radiation) claims that "no significant increase in radioactivity was found."

May 1: the annual Soviet parade is held in Kiev, Ukraine.

May 2: different measures, especially concerning food are taken in many European countries (Poland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece etc..). Italy is also developing a contamination control its borders, in an apparent attempt to suppress contaminated from France where no action has been decided products.

May 6: The French Ministry of Agriculture issued a press release: "The French territory, because of its remoteness, was completely untouched by the effects of consecutive radionuclides accident of Chernobyl."<<<<<<lol

May 8: a confidential note from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Matignon said that France has "got a softening control measures" proposed by Brussels and "above the controls of radiation are made in the exporting country and not in the importing country ".<<<<<fuck yeah

May 10: on the news of TF1, Pierre Pellerin recognizes that radioactivity measurements were abnormal on April 30. But continues to assert that no special measures were necessary.<<<<<<< great

May 14: The number one Soviet Mikhail Gorbachev acknowledged the scale of the disaster in a televised address.

May 15: Foundation Criirad (Commission for Independent Research and Information on Radioactivity) by citizens who denounce the lack of independent controls.

May 16: crisis meeting at the Ministry of Interior. The presence of more than 10,000 becquerels per liter in milk sheep in Corsica does not involve any government decision while European regulation is best to remove the consumption any food containing more than 500 Bq / l. A document is annotated by hand: "We have figures that can not be released." This document will be seized by the court during a search in 2001<<<<<<<<ho ho ho

May 18: Alain Carignon, French Environment Minister said that the government has "made the mistake of believing that because there was no danger, it was not necessary to inform strongly French and French. "<<<<<<suuuuuuuuure

June: the construction of the sarcophagus of reactor number 4 is completed. This shield is supposed to isolate the reactor and prevent further radioactive leakage.

1987

February 16: At a meeting in Brussels of foreign ministers of the European Union, France refuses to allow for extension of the EU regulation on the maximum acceptable radioactivity of food in case of a nuclear accident, adopted urgently after Chernobyl .<<<<<ha ha ha

1990: Doctors are seeing an increase in thyroid cancer in children under 15 years in Belarus and Ukraine.
October 11: the number 2 reactor is out of condition after a fire.

December 1991: Ukraine became independent.

July 1992, the G7 meeting in Munich defines the axes of assistance to Eastern Europe on nuclear safety.

July 1994: at the Naples summit, the G7 provides assistance to $ 200 million, in addition to ECU 500 million already pledged by the European Union in exchange for the permanent closure of the plant. Closure of reactor number 4.
SCPRI change its name to the Office for Protection against Ionizing Radiation (Opri).

1995

March: Alliance group recommends repairing the sarcophagus of reactor number 4. Estimated repairs Amount: $ 1.5 billion.

June: Kiev demanding $ 4 billion to close Chernobyl, compared with $ 885 million proposed by the G7.

December: an agreement between Ukraine and the G7 in Ottawa. For $ 3.1 billion, Ukraine agrees to close its nuclear power plant by 2000.

1997: The Institute for the Protection and Nuclear Safety found that between 1986 and 1997, 1,800 cases of thyroid cancer in children under 18 years are directly attributable to the nuclear accident.

1999

January: No. 3 reactor was arrested three months for repairs to the piping system innervating the reactor, and again set off for work until December.

February 17: Creation of the French Association of Thyroid Disease Sufferers (AFMT)

April: The European Bank for Research and Development reaffirms its wish to see all reactors at the plant inoperable.

2000

March: Ukraine announces that Chernobyl close December 15, 2000, 23 years after its commissioning.

December 15: closing the plant.

2001

March 1: the AFMT, Criirad and 51 patients thyroid file a complaint against X, considering that the management of radioactive fallout from Chernobyl by the French authorities was originally an additional diseases, especially cancer Thyroid.

November 2001: Searches conducted by the judge Bertella-Geffroy in various departments and agencies of the French nuclear risk.

2002

February 24: Criirad and geologist André Paris publish an atlas that shows in detail the contamination of French territory by the Chernobyl cloud and accuse the French authorities of hiding the truth from the public.<<<<<<<<rofl

February 26: pressure the French government created a working group on the consequences of the Chernobyl disaster on the French territory. He entrusted the presidency Aurengo André, Chief of Nuclear Medicine at the Pitie-Salpetriere and ... member of EDF's Board of Directors.

February 28: Judge Bertella Geffroy-demand comparative expertise between radioactivity measurements taken by the French authorities in 1986 and published figures.

April 25: The AFMT and accompanying Criirad 200 new plaintiffs, bringing the number of complaints to 400.

2005

March 25: The judge Marie-Odile Bertella-Geffroy notify the plaintiffs that the report has been provided to him by two experts, Paul Genty and Gilbert Mouthon. The conclusions are damning for the French government at the time (the first was Minister Jacques Chirac, the spokesman of the government was Alain Juppé) and SCPRI. There was no "error" on the part of the authorities, but a deliberate lie.<<<<AND IT'S A FUCKING COVER UP GOING WRONG

April 13: Criirad calls for the review of Pierre Pellerin

September: A UN report back to 4000 the number of people who have died as a result of the nuclear accident. A report criticized by victims' associations and in particular by the international organization "Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War" (IPPNW).

2006

15 and 16 April: a few days before the 20th anniversary of Chernobyl, the Network "Going Nuclear" organizes a giant near Flamanville (Manche) gathering site where a nuclear reactor (EPR) should be created.


Just because the government says so, doesn't make it so.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Developing infrastructure for transportation, has most often been more of a government job. Roads, even before there were cars, railroads, ports and airports ALL take governmental help. But all benefit from them as well.

I still want to know a product developed by a state owned industry.

Trains are products... often manufactured by the state. Lines, stations signals etc are infrastructure... but lets not get bogged down in this.

Logically, if government controlled firms own 41% of industrial capitol in China... does it not make sense that they are producing massive quantities of products.

The world does not start and end with the U.S... you may think it does but it doesn't.

http://www.economist.com/node/18832034

The difference between Corporatism and State Owned Enterprises is SOE's have a social obligation whereas corporations do not. The similarity is that government makes the rules to suit.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Can you give us 3 major products that came from a state owned industry?

Which changes into
DEVELOP a new product, not steal or buy it from others.

Ah, so do you mean invent.... if so, really should have said invent rather than 'come from' which equally implies 'produce'. Is it really the role of government to invent products....

Here is a link re governmental R & D http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/scienc...unding-and-company-behaviour_9789264025851-en
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Develop is the word. Take Teflon, it was invented by NASA, but the major use of it, for cookware was developed and formed into a consumer product by private industry. My intent was to point out that state controlled companies do a very poor job of developing products. Do you remember the Yugo?

R & D is an area where government can do a good job, turning that into a product is not. An excellent example is the development of vaccines. They are expensive to develop, risky and there is little chance of even being able to get the costs back in a reasonable time period. They need some type of government support.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Develop is the word. Take Teflon, it was invented by NASA, but the major use of it, for cookware was developed and formed into a consumer product by private industry. My intent was to point out that state controlled companies do a very poor job of developing products. Do you remember the Yugo?

R & D is an area where government can do a good job, turning that into a product is not. An excellent example is the development of vaccines. They are expensive to develop, risky and there is little chance of even being able to get the costs back in a reasonable time period. They need some type of government support.

This is more of a political argument really, should governments really be conducting expensive R&D and then allowing private companies to profit from that use of taxpayers money... or should they be competing with industry at that level and if they did would they not have an unfair advantage as they write the laws.

Also it is about competition. Where the state is involved ... like British Telecom, British Gas etc there was a monopoly which was inefficient due to lack of competition.

With BT... it has been successfully de monopolised and prices have come down but in the energy sector this has led to cartels forcing up energy prices.

With the current Corporatism that often amounts to a monopoly and further the private companies involved end up unduly influencing government policy and laws.

I think there could be a very good argument for drug R&D and manufacture by government rather than the profiteering by drug companies which we currently see.

Another mystery to me is, who would benefit, (in financial terms), if a cancer research charity finally did come up with a panacea for cancer?

It appears to be the BIG PHARMA...

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/can..._discovery/temozolomide/story-of-temozolomide

This appears immoral to me that peoples donations are then used by Big Pharma to patent and profiteer from these donations.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
The difference between Corporatism and State Owned Enterprises is SOE's have a social obligation whereas corporations do not. The similarity is that government makes the rules to suit.


They do? Then why do state owned companies have a worse environmental and safety record than private companies? Why do they cut corners? The baby milk, lead and cadmium based paint in toys, contaminated dog treats and many others are some recent ones from China. The waste ponds and hazardous chemicals left all over Eastern Europe and the former USSR are more examples. Like these 2 http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...scent-of-2000-Romania-disaster-but-much-worse. What about the deadly coal mines of China?

Government needs to be there as a regulator, as a 'cop on the beat' to make sure that companies follow the law. When the state does the production, then there is no one guarding the hen house
 

someGuy

New Member
Then why do state owned companies have a worse environmental and safety record than private companies?
The city of Paris decided to privatize the water network once...
After few years, the private companies (Suez and Veolia) could not pay for infrastructure maintenance and remain profitable
Water quality decreased
To correct the problem they added chemicals to the water, a lot...
Until the city took over and told them to fuck off

Government needs to be there as a regulator, as a 'cop on the beat' to make sure that companies follow the law. When the state does the production, then there is no one guarding the hen house
US Government can't do the 'cop on the beat', too much lobbying IMO and revolving doors
All it can do is bailouts for big failures and protection Acts for mega corp

"Monsanto Protection Act put GM companies above the federal courts"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2013/apr/04/monsanto-protection-act-gm

even people used to the closeness of the US administration and food giants like Monsanto have been shocked by the latest demonstration of the GM industry's political muscle

Imagine that...
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
They do? Then why do state owned companies have a worse environmental and safety record than private companies? Why do they cut corners? The baby milk, lead and cadmium based paint in toys, contaminated dog treats and many others are some recent ones from China. The waste ponds and hazardous chemicals left all over Eastern Europe and the former USSR are more examples. Like these 2 http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...scent-of-2000-Romania-disaster-but-much-worse. What about the deadly coal mines of China?

Government needs to be there as a regulator, as a 'cop on the beat' to make sure that companies follow the law. When the state does the production, then there is no one guarding the hen house

I guess it is because it is legal

http://watoxics.org/files/LeadCadmiumPhthalates_TFLC

Perhaps China has different laws on goods in their own country... as have we in the past... even to arsenic in wallpaper http://www.popularscience.co.uk/?p=509

The key here is exports should comply with standards in the country the goods are going to... if they don't then it is illegal, no matter who manufactured them.

I guess also there is fraud and incompetence:

http://www.sigir.mil/files/learningfromiraq/Section5_-_March_2013.pdf


Missing data
—15% of the IRRF obligations
were not accounted for in agency databases.
SIGIR could not determine if the missing
obligation and expenditure data resulted from
data-entry problems or something more, such
as fraud. Resolving this issue would entail a
close review of every IRRF-funded contract, a
task that exceeded SIGIR’s resources.
Because of these deficiencies in record
keeping, the disposition of billions of dol-
lars for projects remains unknown because
the U.S. government agencies involved in
the relief and reconstruction effort did not
maintain project information in any uniform
or comprehensive manner.
SIGIR Audit 13-006
The Falluja Waste Water Treatment System project, on
which the United States spent $100 million in U.S. funds,
is not listed as a single project in the Iraq Reconstruction
Management System. Instead, IRMS has 49 separate
records, including records for project activities funded from
the IRRF, CERP, and ESF. (U.S. Army photo
 

Adam

Member
Develop is the word. Take Teflon, it was invented by NASA, but the major use of it, for cookware was developed and formed into a consumer product by private industry. My intent was to point out that state controlled companies do a very poor job of developing products. Do you remember the Yugo?

R & D is an area where government can do a good job, turning that into a product is not. An excellent example is the development of vaccines. They are expensive to develop, risky and there is little chance of even being able to get the costs back in a reasonable time period. They need some type of government support.

The Yugo GV was based on a Fiat design (and was licensed by Fiat). So if you want to use Yugo as an example of the failings or shortcomings of state-owned industry, you might want to pick another target. If you you're saying the Yugo GV was a poorly-designed car, then you're basically saying the Fiat 127 was a poorly-designed car. And that was designed by private enterprise, not the big, bad state.
 

joelb79

Active Member
Develop is the word. Take Teflon, it was invented by NASA


Teflon was developed by NASA? That's news to me. I pulled this From Wikipedia:



 
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Mick West Debunked: FBI Says No one killed at Sandy Hook [Included in CT State total] Sandy Hook 48
Mick West Debunked: Islamic State (ISIS) orders female circumcision (FGM, Female Genital Mutilation) Conspiracy Theories 53
deirdre Searchable State Police Report and OFFICIAL reports/press releases Sandy Hook 3
Tobes Email from former Connecticut state worker claiming lottery/Sandy Hook connection Sandy Hook 22
BlueCollarCritic Police State Prep - Cops Not Breaking The Law While Breaking The Law Conspiracy Theories 5
Mick West State Legislators Who Are Influenced by Conspiracy Theories Conspiracy Theories 3
BlueCollarCritic Police State Push - Whitehouse Defends Gun to Head of 11 Year Old Conspiracy Theories 1
U debunked: City of London a sovereign state Conspiracy Theories 110
Jay Reynolds Pseudo-Tourettes Outbreak in NY State Health and Quackery 13

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