Dubious Claim: Radio-wave treated water improves crop output

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
This is interesting but it's hard to tell if it's legitimate, and there's no back-up articles or references, sounds a little dubious.
http://www.independent.ie/business/...lobal-warming-gm-and-pesticides-29525621.html
And how does this sit with people who claim that wi-fi radiation is cancerous and harmful?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
What does making 'water wetter' mean? Would that mean alkalising, if alkaline water is more 'slippery'? Does 'charging' water have anything to do with ionising? Are radio waves normally reflected and not absorbed by water?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Making water 'wetter' is tied to claims associated with ionising and alkalising water.

However, it is not clear from the article if it is the same supposed process achieving this, as it only talks about 'charging' the water through radio waves, not ionizing or alkalising.
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
A spirited evisceration of the article...
 
What does making 'water wetter' mean? Would that mean alkalising, if alkaline water is more 'slippery'? Does 'charging' water have anything to do with ionising? Are radio waves normally reflected and not absorbed by water?

Bill Nye talked about making "water wetter" once! That's what soap does. Basically, it makes it so that the liquid can adhere to surfaces better, e.g. dirt and oil. Bleach is an alkali (i.e. base i.e. opposite of acid). Put a drop of bleach in a cup of water and feel it. That's "wetter water." "Slippery" is a good way to describe it.

In most parts of the word, the soil is slightly acidic. Applying alkali can bring up the pH, making them closer to neutral. One of the reasons my home province of Saskatchewan has such great agriculture is that our soil is naturally alkaline.

As for charging water, it's bogus. You might be able to charge it temporarily by pumping it full of electrons, but as soon as you remove the source, the water will tend to balance its charge with its surroundings. More likely, you'll break the H2O's apart and end up with hydrogen and oxygen gases. It's called electrolysis and it's been known for over a century. That's where almost all of the world's molecular hydrogen (H2) comes from.

Virtually all tap water is naturally ionized. That is, it contains dissolved ions such as Na+, Ca++, Mg++ (and enough Cl-, F-, and other anions to keep the mix neutral). As for ionizing the water molecules themselves, they do that all by their selves. When water molecules are tired of being H2O, they get together with other H2O's and make an OH- and an H3O+. Meanwhile, elsewhere in your Waterworld, the ionized H3O+ and OH- are tired of being different so they combine back into a couple waters. This happens spontaneously and continually in any body of water.
 

sstorch

New Member
if you were to enlighten yourself by actually growing crops with potentized or vortexed water you would see the results and begin to understand what it is you are attempting to talk about. i have been doing tis for twenty five years. if we understand the anomalous properties of water; like how it contracts to the temperature of 38ºf and then begins to expand and how the dipole nature of the hydrogen bond can change from 62º to 120º when the water passes through a vortex, you would begin to understand the deeper nature of water and its capabilities. I suggest looking into the work of viktor schauberger, rudolf steiner's suggestion to 'stir' the biodynamic field sprays and the work of Masuru Emoto. Water running through a straight pipe is deadened; like your tap water. Water running in rivers and mountain streams is structured and clustered. if you cannot drink it and tell the difference you have had too much dead water and you will be next.
sstorch
 

Sausalito

Active Member
if you were to enlighten yourself by actually growing crops with potentized or vortexed water you would see the results and begin to understand what it is you are attempting to talk about. i have been doing tis for twenty five years. if we understand the anomalous properties of water; like how it contracts to the temperature of 38ºf and then begins to expand and how the dipole nature of the hydrogen bond can change from 62º to 120º when the water passes through a vortex, you would begin to understand the deeper nature of water and its capabilities. I suggest looking into the work of viktor schauberger, rudolf steiner's suggestion to 'stir' the biodynamic field sprays and the work of Masuru Emoto. Water running through a straight pipe is deadened; like your tap water. Water running in rivers and mountain streams is structured and clustered. if you cannot drink it and tell the difference you have had too much dead water and you will be next.
sstorch
Oh my. Ominous end note there.
On Masuru Emoto:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1144934/masaru_emotos_wonderful_world_of_water/

Excerpt:
What do you mean by "potentized"? As by the process used in homeopathy? I was unaware that the placebo effect worked on corn...

Edit: Oh snap. Here's this:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/em...alleged-effect-of-human-intent-on-matter.498/
 
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solrey

Senior Member.
if we understand the anomalous properties of water; like how it contracts to the temperature of 38ºf and then begins to expand

Water expanding when frozen is not "anomalous". When water freezes, the water molecules form hexagonal crystals.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/waterdens.html

My apologies, but when someone gets such basic science wrong, I have a hard time believing anything they say.
 

Gazmik

New Member
The claims are laughably fantastic for something as simple as applying radio waves to water. Without explaining the mechanism or presenting the data you can't really make much more of an assessment. The claims are reminiscent of unsupported new age ideas about charged water.
At 27 megahertz, the RF is non-ionizing. How do you "charge" water without ionizing it? To ionize water molecules, you need photon energies of 33 electronvolts or higher. That would mean a wavelength of 37.6 nanometers or shorter, which would be in the extreme ultraviolet spectrum. The wavelength of the RF that they use would be around 11 meters, in the CB radio spectrum in the US.

The effects of the RF would be thermal, and it doesn't appear that the equipment would generate enough power to even do a significant amount of that.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
They should get together with that "free energy" Irish company and do it for free, then. Er, where did that go? Oops, sorry...
 

Gazmik

New Member
UV water sterilizers spring to mind. Aren't they a normal industrial product?
I know that you can buy consumer UV water filters.

From the Vi-Aqua web page:

The Vi-Aqua system works by altering the natural surface charge of suspended particles and acts to modify the Zeta potential. The negative charge, induced by the applied signal, enhances the stability of the suspension by means of increased electrostatic repulsion between particles. This is due to the resultant double layer of ions that surround particles and vessel/pipe surfaces which are in contact with the water.

The modified "zeta-potential" facilitates improved hydration of solids and reduced surface tension of the water, thus creating the Benefits that will be see in your grass or crop.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
At 27 megahertz, the RF is non-ionizing. How do you "charge" water without ionizing it? To ionize water molecules, you need photon energies of 33 electronvolts or higher. That would mean a wavelength of 37.6 nanometers or shorter, which would be in the extreme ultraviolet spectrum. The wavelength of the RF that they use would be around 11 meters, in the CB radio spectrum in the US.

The effects of the RF would be thermal, and it doesn't appear that the equipment would generate enough power to even do a significant amount of that.

And how would UV energy yield better quality water? Other than the fact that it would effectively be sterile.
 

Gazmik

New Member
And how would UV energy yield better quality water? Other than the fact that it would effectively be sterile.
I'm not claiming that it does yield better quality water. I doubt it would. I was just pointing out that the 11 meter wavelength 27 MHz RF that they claim alters the charge would be incapable of ionizing water molecules because of the fact that it doesn't have the photon energy that is required.
 

CCPchemprof

New Member
I just looked up Professor Austin Darragh of Limerick University at the Limerick U website. He has published over 100 papers, but none more recently that the early 1990's. Also none on any topic related to the recent claim regarding radio-frequency treated water. So I too am very skeptical of this new claim touting the agricultural benefits of this so-called treatment.
 
A 2019 update on Austin Darragh's Vi-Aqua

Austin Darragh passed away on 4th October 2015, aged 88. His websites shut down (viaqua.ie and viaqua.com), and the invention does not seem to have gone anywhere since. They seem to be having some family and money troubles. The Irish Times in may 2018 reported “Mrs Darragh frustrated efforts by David to finalise agreements relating to patents held jointly by him and his father and used by their company Darragh Equestrian Solutions, they said“. The article doesn't mention Vi-Aqua.

His website is archived on archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20140621024648/http://www.viaqua.com/

In the documents section, some documents are not archived:
GENERAL INFORMATION DOSSIER (General-Information-Dossier.pdf)
FULL SCIENTIFIC REPORT (Full-Scientific-Doc-Proof.pdf)
An Interim Observation Report on Vi-Aqua (NZ) + Barley trial (Askin-full-report.pdf)

The other documents are accessible (which is odd because first time I tried I only got the poultry one)

https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...om/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/PhotoThesis.pdf
Gives examples with pictures of plants growing better with treated water.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...om/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Pig_Report1.pdf
Says pigs put on more weight with treated water.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...ent/uploads/2014/04/Poultry-Overview-2012.pdf
"Treated groups showed better Food Conversion Rates, reduced Mortality resulting inimproved profit per 1000.
Over 100 studies treating almost 10 million birds into the effect on Food Conversion Rates (FCR) utilising the technology have been conducted spanning a time frame of 32 months in and with almost every major producer in Ireland, North and South and in the UK .
[..]
The commercial value of the crop being paramount presented some difficulties on one hand because the crop has to be produced for profit and actions outside of protocol may have been taken to ensure the viability of the crop
[…]
Never the less the preliminary figures show the studies conducted to date further demonstrated an average increase profit per 1000 of between €20.00 and €35.00.”

https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Full_UL_Report.pdf
"The results indicate a 42% reduction in scale formation on the test heat exchanger. […] In addition the texture of the scale was very amorphous compared with the hard encrusted scale, which developed with the untreated water.”

Inducing the fourth state of plasma in water
https://web.archive.org/web/2014082...s/2014/04/Inducing-the-fourth-state-52-53.pdf
Also available online on his blog https://austindarragh.wordpress.com/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10767162
They did something with radio waves.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es980172k
They made some changes to water by rushing it past magnets of alternating polarities.

There is a testimonials page. The videos linked to on the multimedia page have been removed from youtube. One of them had its web-page archived. The account that uploaded the videos has other industry-related videos.

I have just bought the late Austin Darragh's book “The Facts of Light”, where he explains how it works. It is hardback and from Ireland, pages a little yellow with the date 2009 printed in it. It is a collection of essays. He was a Christian, and the book has some on theology. “Inducing the fourth state of plasma in water” mentioned above is also a chapter in the book.

In the Water chapter he explains water, the H-O-H molecule is bent at an angle of 104.5°, making it polar, because the hydrogens have their electrons pulled towards the oxygen (electronegativity) making the oxygen negatively charged and the hydrogen positively charged. Ice takes up more space than liquid water. The water molecules do “hydrogen bonding”, where the positive hydrogens of one molecule are attracted to the negative oxygens of other molecules.

So this says the electromagnetic energy is stored by moving the structure of the water into a stable high-energy state, and it seems this energy can be utilised by organisms.

The book also has APPENDIX 4 which explains the working of his Vi-Aqua. It uses the frequency 27.225 megahertz.

There is more explanation in his "Inducing the fourth state of plasma in water" essay linked to above.

For instructions on how to make one, you can download their 2015 patent here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8992848.html. Patent US8992848B2, “Apparatus for delivering electromagnetic energy into a solution”.

It doesn't look like anyone's made one to find out if it does what it's claimed it does. I think someone ought to. I might have a go myself, but I wouldn't want people to decide not to make one themselves because they think I'm going to, when I may or may not make one.

I have been reading a lot about what people have been doing with water online. Another one is pyramids, which reportedly improve the growth of plants and do other things when aligned with the earth's magnetic field, and from one account when aligned with strong magnets placed next to it. Some think the pyramid interacts with subtle energy, also called Chi/Qi and Prana and other names. My pyramid experimentation is taking a long time.

Another one is the “MEOW kettle” which reportedly makes water taste better, and makes you feel energised, and can darken grey hair. They've called it “magnetic water” for a name. I've not made one for lack of magnetite here in the UK.

Another one is “ORMUS” water. ORMUS stands for Orbitally Re-arranged Mono-atomic something something. They think an atom can have its outer shell electrons configured such that it does not form chemical bonds, is made normal again by electromagnetic waves, and is a room-temperature superconductor, and they say it's really good for you. They have ways of making what they call ORMUS out of salt. They say they are extracting the ORMUS from the salt. Some say it's gold.
There are “ORMUS water traps” that vortex the water next to a doughnut magnet, the idea being that the room temperature superconductor in the water will go one way, which they drink and say is sweet and cloudy, while the rest of the water without room-temperature superconductor goes the other way. Some people go through a lot of water to get their ORMUS water. It seems odd to me that they don't say what happens when they try putting the water through a second time, to see if they can turn it all into ORMUS water. One person said he did, and you're not getting the ORMUS from the water, you're just changing the water.
Another design is spinning a - it was either dielectric or diamagnetic - material in water. Another is a cup or bottle with strong magnets around the outside, and leaving it. I've not made one of these because of my indecisiveness in choosing magnets.
One person has said that ORMUS in your body in your meridians works with subtle energy. Some say ORMUS helps with psychic powers. One alchemy forum said that you can distil the alchemical sulphur and mercury from ORMUS water.

And we have this example of changing water with radio waves.

I think this MEOW kettle water and “ORMUS water” and pyramid water and magnet water and radio wave water may be the same thing, although I am open to the possibility of ORMUS until it is disproven. I would be interested in knowing if there are other ways people have claimed to be able to change water, like to make it sweet or to make plants grow better.

My opinion is that Austin Darragh seems to have had a good reputation, and he was working on this as far back as 2001 https://www.independent.ie/business/darragh-firm-sees-losses-almost-double-26079730.html, so I think it would have been hard for him to keep a lie involving his university for that long. He also made big claims about how many farmers had used the device successfully, but also Adolph Hitler said that if you make a big enough lie then people won't think you could be lying. It does seem odd to me though that his family gave up on it after Austin Darragh died. I think making one and testing the water on plants would be the best way to verify this.
 

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I had meant to make this correction to my above post but I somehow kept forgetting. I cringe to see what I typed, but it looks like after a certain time you can't edit your posts. I think I was mistaken when I said
"So this says the electromagnetic energy is stored by moving the structure of the water into a stable high-energy state, and it seems this energy can be utilised by organisms."

No, Austin Darragh did not say that, I just assumed this. I had been reading about what people had been doing with water, and ideas about "subtle energy". I thought that because the Vi-Aqua had an energy input, making it different to things like a static pyramid, you could try explaining it with our current understanding of physics, and conservation of energy, and energy storage. Translating "subtle energy" to "energy as we know it".

Another conventional explanation, and one that I think Austin Darragh was actually saying, is like the thing about making water wetter. "Structuring" the water differently, changing the solubility of nutrients and things in the water, somehow improving biological process rates in plants, something like that.

I am still open to the possibility that there is an elusive subtle energy though. Maybe I won't get into my anecdote here.

I think my summary of my reading on ORMUS is insufficient now. I would recommend joining the ORMUS yahoo group to those interested where they say a lot of things, including things about water, but yahoo groups has recently shut down the joining of yahoo groups and the creation of new ones. Someone created a replacement ORMUS mail list-like thing on ormus.groups.io, but they had problems with spam. They have the archive of the old yahoo group there. It won't let me log on because after moving house I'm asked to enter a mobile phone number to log onto gmail, but when I enter it it doesn't actually send me the code.
I think there may well be some sort of altered solid called ORMUS that's not the same thing as altered water, but I would want to try making some before being certain. Also I have not tried making a Vi-Aqua device.

I think my delay in posting this correction may have had something to do with wanting to do an experiment before posting the results here, but I've still not even started the experiment.
 
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