Drones shot down in Turkey and Ukraine, Russian or not?

Pythagoras

New Member
Friday 16 October Turkey claimed to have shot down a drone.
There is wide speculation in the media that it is a Russian "Orlan-10" drone. But Russian authorities have so far denied it is a Russian drone and the Orlan drone maker says the drone in the pictures is not an Orlan drone.

Here are pictures of the drone Turkey claims to have shot down:
http://www.airlive.net/2015/10/breaking-unidentified-aircraft-has-been.html

When doing a Google image search for "Orlan-10" I see a very different drone.
Only one of the pictures labeled "Orlan-10" matches the drone shot down in Turkey, this is a drone that was shot down in Ukraine earlier. It was stated to be a Russian "Orlan-10" drone by the Security Service of Ukraine.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...pecial-operation-units-is-russian-350048.html
However, I do not consider this a trustworthy source at all, there is a lot of propaganda and lies coming out of official Ukraine bodies these days.

A drone in both Syria and Ukraine makes Russia a prime suspect of course. But then I thought.. What if it's an American drone? CIA for instance. Would make sense in both Ukraine and Syria as well. And if it's a covert drone it may well be mistaken and draw "friendly fire" in both Ukraine and Syria? That would be fun :)

Here the Turkish/Syrian drone:
dbb3d338a0f14de1619e0c732a8f99c7.png

Here the Ukraine drone:
b95aff7238be8ef3c6cddc55121f852d.jpg

Here an Orlan-10 drone:
7a1e095673c2271fdd9906a2125b3eb3.jpg
a84d0da1babec5bd03a32e97892d10d2.jpg


So can anybody give further insight into this / debunk the drones shot down in Turkey and Ukraine are Russian drones?
 

Gridlock

Senior Member.
This was shot down over Ukraine, it's one of three on display - the other being an Orlan 10.).

38cb6908168dd7dbeed58dd123057aa0.jpg

865807c6bdef38a97a022985f0a85171.jpg

https://translate.google.com/transl.../galex.livejournal.com/32980.html&prev=search

..so that probably explains where the incorrect -10 designation has come from. But I'm still looking for a match from outside Ukraine or Turkey.

Edit - OK, the one in the foreground isn't a -10 either, not sure where I went wrong with that one. The differing positions of the six holes at the back of the fuselage, between Turkey and Ukraine, makes me think the drone is very modular so this could simply be a -10 body with different aero kit fitted (tail specifically)?
 
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Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member.
Both drones shot down over Ukraine share a couple features the Orlan-10 press images lack. First is the differing tail construction; the horizontal stabilizers are attached to the top of the fuselage instead of the side. That change seems to have necessitated twin vertical stabilizers attached to the horizontal. Second is the different engine; the prop is mounted lower and the nosecone is significantly larger.

That said, I would guess the aircraft is of the same basic type as the Orlan-10. The two press photos differ as well, with differing engine cowlings and differing vertical stabilizers (specifically the way the leading edge meets the fuselage). The length of fuselage between wing and engine differs as well. The older Ukraine photo clearly shows the engine is a separate module from the rest of the fuselage, which would allow for easy maintenance and upgrades. Given the aircraft's size I suspect it is designed to be broken down to be man-transportable, which would explain the changes in tail construction.

The wing and fuselage of the shot down aircraft remain virtually identical to the second Russian press photo of the Orlon-10 however.
 

Pythagoras

New Member
It's a game of spot the difference.

Unknown drone (shot down over Ukraine and Turkey) vs Orlan-10
- Different body shape, Unknown drone is more square in the back, Orlan-10 is round.
- Different and horizontal stabilizers with completely different attachment method.
- Different access to payload, Orlan-10 doesn't have a square hole at the back top of the body.
- Different propeller blades in shape and color (possibly even different material)
- Different propeller cone (pointed vs flattened)
- Different engine placement.
- Different air intake and different exaust placement.
- Different number placement and style / color, black circle with white numbers vs white rectangle with black numbers.
- Different riveting.
- Possibly different paint, Orlan-10 seems a bit lighter paint to me but not sure.

Upon close inspection it seems highly highly unlikely to me the unknown drone and the Orlan-10 were made by the same manufacturer.

Thanks for the additional picture Gridlock!
What I get from it:


From first appearance the front drone may be from the same manufacturer as the Orlan-10.
The drone in the middle is the unknown drone.
And the drone in the back may be from the same manufacturer as the unknown drone, lets call it unknown drone 2.



Same manufacturer? They seem to share many features in construction style.
So, if we find the manufacturer of unknown drone 2 (the one in the back) we'll likely also have our answer to where the unknown drone shot down in Turkey came from.
Anybody able to identify unknown drone 2?
 

Pythagoras

New Member
One in the back is Russian:
ad81e1dd23739df7fe4eeb4ad34c73d6.jpg

And the one in the front is Russian as well.

Seems likely now that the unknown drone is indeed Russian. But possibly from a different manufacturer that Orlan. The list of Russian drone manufacturers is pretty big it seems..
 

Pythagoras

New Member
This one looks like the Israeli-made Bird-Eye 600 mini-UAV. Israel did sell them to Russia as well as to other countries.
http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Unmanned-Air-Vehicles/Bird-Eye-600_a000176004.aspx
http://www.satnews.com/story.php?number=1382090319

Oh thanks! Very interesting.
It looks more similar in construction to the unknown drone than the Orlan-10. But no good way to tell if it's the same manufacturer as the unknown drone.

So the question is still very much open. Who produced the unknown drone shot down in Ukraine and Turkey?
I've been looking at a lot of known drone models and I'm still none the wiser..
In any case, I do think that the claims made in the media (and apparently by some Turkish military officials) that the unknown drone is an Orlan-10 are clearly false upon close inspection.
 

Pythagoras

New Member
Thanks Spectrar Ghost!
I found this link in the thread you linked to:
http://spioenkop.blogspot.nl/2015/07/from-ukraine-to-syria-russian-orlan-10.html
I shows pictures of a camera array payload for the unknown drone.

And in another search I found this thread (which I can't read)
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/356...i_foto/sortby/tree/order/desc/page/2#comments
It has a very interesting closeup picture of the unknown drone:
1fc30deccec4d6b3c8cf4e469fd41535.jpg

Which turns out to be the logo of http://www.moeschl-kunststoffverarbeitung.de/home/
Hmm.. Anybody wants to send them an email asking who they made that part for? :) Haha.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Oh thanks! Very interesting.
It looks more similar in construction to the unknown drone than the Orlan-10. But no good way to tell if it's the same manufacturer as the unknown drone.
Well, it may be interesting to identify the manufacturer of the unknown drone, but it would not necessarily lead to its operator. The size of the drone suggests that it has a relatively short range, perhaps, just a few dozen miles. It must have been launched not very far from the place it was shot down. Is there a Russian military base in the vicinity?
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
One of Russian internet newspapers, referring to an unnamed source in Russian defence industry, said it was a Russian-made UAV, which was a secret development unmentioned by any media so far. It does look similar to "Orlan" family, but the Orlan designer and producer said they had no hand in its development. Also, this UAV is used not by Russian military, but other, yet again unnamed, Russian agencies.
http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2015/10/16/7825181.shtml
 

Pythagoras

New Member
Well, it may be interesting to identify the manufacturer of the unknown drone, but it would not necessarily lead to its operator. The size of the drone suggests that it has a relatively short range, perhaps, just a few dozen miles. It must have been launched not very far from the place it was shot down. Is there a Russian military base in the vicinity?

Yes indeed, I was thinking the same.
Even if it turns out to be a Russian made drone it could well have been provided to the Syrian army or even the Iranians (reported to have provided forces on the ground as well).
In fact the above option seems more likely to me as there are seemingly no Russian soldiers on the ground other than at certain airbases which are not close to the Turkish border.
Btw it's also not yet clear to me where exactly at the border the drone was shot down.

Hope the Gazeta newspaper isn't correct. A covert Russian UAV will be hard to identify with certainty. I want to know now :)
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Hope the Gazeta newspaper isn't correct. A covert Russian UAV will be hard to identify with certainty. I want to know now :)
You may have to wait for the identification. Russian, or not, the UAV appears to be covert with no known manufacturers having advertised a very similar design. I trawled trough Russian language sources the past weekend without success. However, it is already the fifth UAV of this type downed in conflict areas; three previous in Ukraine (two in 2014 and one in early 2015) and one in Syria (in July 2015, see the link in #11). At least two of them carried a set of twelve cameras located in the fuselage, the arrangement of which suggests it is designed for the making very detailed 3D maps of the ground:03f6a9d8a1a074759a96a684f98de08e.jpg
ac45316470764d27628b9357ec516b62.jpg
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
How are these being knocked down?
This is an interesting question. There is something fishy going here.
In the initial reports by BBC News and CNN, there are videoclips of burnt pieces of wreckage which ignited dry grass on the ground:
Screen Shot 2015-10-20 at 12.57.52.png Screen Shot 2015-10-20 at 12.56.53.png
followed by the still image of a nearly intact UAV with a (parachute?) rope attached and no signs of the ground fire around:
Screen Shot 2015-10-20 at 13.05.55.png
These appear to be the images of two different UAVs. The first one (if it was a drone) possibly was shot down, whereas the second one appears to have crash-landed (due to a technical failure?)
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
The following video shows the inside of the company that manufactures the Orlan family of drones. I've had a look but can't see anything in the footage or background that can identify this unnamed Russian variant. There are some good close ups of the Orlan 10 fuselage and payload bays. Perhaps needs a sharper eye to check anything in the background during the footage?


Possibly this un-named drone is the announced modification of the Orlan Universal?


LLC “Special Technology Center” upgraded the commercially available complex of unmanned aerial reconnaissance and surveillance with unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) “Orlan-10”, providing day-night application, a source in the military-industrial complex said to “AviaPort”.

According to him, at present, a new modification of the “Orlan-Universal” has been created. It can be used day and night thanks to the new target load. UAV target load consists of a digital aerial camera, video camera and thermal imager. “The peculiarity of this payload is no need to change the equipment payload to perform tasks during the day – in the daytime and at night,” said the source.

Currently, under the state defense order the Special Technology Center delivers complexes of UAV aircraft “Orlan-10” type. In addition, Special Technology Center has developed a range of drones “Orlan-1/2/3/3M/30” that come in single copies on the orders or are prototypes, the source noted.
Content from External Source
https://rostechnologiesblog.wordpre...orlan-10-upgraded-to-version-orlan-universal/
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Possibly this un-named drone is the announced modification of the Orlan Universal?

I have watched the video. All Orlan modifications retain essentially the same body and tail design. Probably, Orlan Universal is no exception.
 

Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member.
I have watched the video. All Orlan modifications retain essentially the same body and tail design. Probably, Orlan Universal is no exception.

The described sensor package is also different from the 12-lens terrain mapping package these have had at least twice. Though modular sensors are certainly possible.
 
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