"Devon Woods" Warns Luis Elizondo that UFOs are Biblical Demons

[Mick West]

In his 2024 book "Imminent", Luis Elizondo mentions a DIA officer he refers to as "Devon Woods", who warned him that UFOs were demons:

"Have you read your Bible lately, Lue?" he asked.
"Um... sir, I am familiar with the Bible," I said.
What a strange thing to ask, I thought.
"Lue, you're opening a can of worms playing with this stuff," Woods said. It was clear to me he was talking about UAP.
I can't imagine the look on my face. But I'm sure Woods could tell I was perplexed.
"It's demonic," he said to me. "There is no reason we should be looking into this. We already know what they are and where they come from. They are deceivers. Demons."
I couldn't believe what I was hearing. This was a senior intelligence official putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.

Who was "Woods"? Elizondo supplies some information about him.

Earlier I mentioned a distinguished leader I'm referring to as Devon Woods, who had assumed a senior role at DIA. I knew him well, and regarded him as smart, calm, cool, and collected. Woods had been my unofficial mentor when I first came to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI). He had an illustrious career with the CIA before coming on board ODNI.

Later, Elizondo described how his boss, James Clapper, was made director of national intelligence and that some time after that, Woods was made deputy director of the DIA. This narrows things down quite a bit.

Clapper was DNI from Aug 9, 2010 to Jan 20, 2017. After Aug 9, 2010, the two Deputy Directors of the DIA on Clappers watch were:

David Shedd - Aug 2010 to Aug 2014
Douglas Wise - Aug 2014 to 2016

After Wise, the deputy directors were female. So it seems like "Devon Woods" must either be David Shedd or Douglas Wise. Both were in the CIA and the ODNI.

Devon Woods -> DW -> Douglas Wise, is a tenuous connection. I think David Shedd is more likely. He was at the ODNI as the Deputy Director for Policy, Plans, and Requirements from 2007 to 2010, and presumably was there before 2007. I'm not sure when Elizondo arrived, but he said "Woods had been my unofficial mentor when I first came to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI)."

 

[Mick West]

Compare educations:

Article:

[Douglas Wise] earned master's degrees from the Dartmouth College School of Arts and Sciences and from the Thayer School of Engineering, and completed a post-graduate fellowship at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Source: https://www.dia.mil/News-Features/Articles/Article-View/Article/566979/dia-names-deputy-director/

Article:

Shedd holds a bachelor's degree from Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, and a master's degree from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service in Latin American studies.

Source: https://www.dia.mil/About/History/Directors-of-DIA/David-R-Shedd/

Article:

Geneva College is a private Christian college in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania. [...] The only undergraduate institution affiliated with the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA), the college's undergraduate core curriculum emphasizes the humanities and the formation of a Reformed Christian worldview.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_College

The more secular education of Wise and the Christian education of Shedd point towards Schedd. The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America seems quite fundamentalist.

Article:

The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA) is a Presbyterian church with congregations and missions throughout the United States, Japan, and Chile.[3] Its beliefs—held in common with other members of the Reformed Presbyterian Global Alliance—place it in the conservative wing of the Reformed family of Protestant churches. Below the Bible—which is held as divinely inspired and without error—the church is committed to several "subordinate standards," together considered with its constitution: the Westminster Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms, along with its Testimony, Directory for Church Government, the Book of Discipline, and Directory for Worship.

Primary doctrinal distinctions which separate the RPCNA from other Reformed and Presbyterian denominations in North America are: its continued adherence to the historical practice of Reformed Christianity, contained in the Westminster Confession of Faith, of practicing exclusive psalmody, and its continuing affirmation of Jesus as mediatorial king, ruling over all nations. Prior to the 1960s, the RPCNA refused to vote in elections or participate in government in the United States due to it not directly acknowledging Christ's authority over it, and since has continued (at some times more heavily than others), to lobby the federal government to expressly submit to the authority of Jesus Christ in the United States Constitution.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Presbyterian_Church_of_North_America

However, his education was some time ago.

 

[Mick West]

More pointing to Shedd:

Article:

Shedd served in the U.S. government for nearly 33 years. Since leaving the federal government, he has worked at The Heritage Foundation and as an adjunct professor at Patrick Henry College. He is an independent national security consultant, serves on several corporate boards, and is actively supporting several missions and NGOs such as Justice & Mercy International and Samaritan's Purse.

Source: https://www.heritage.org/staff/david-r-shedd

Via ChatGPT (sorry, but it's quick way of looking up several things at once)

Political Affiliation:

1. Heritage Foundation: The Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank, indicating that Shedd likely has conservative political views.
2. Patrick Henry College: This college is known for its conservative and Christian educational philosophy, suggesting alignment with conservative values.

Religious Affiliation:

1. Justice & Mercy International and Samaritan's Purse: Both are Christian organizations involved in humanitarian aid and mission work. Samaritan's Purse, in particular, is led by Franklin Graham, a prominent evangelical Christian leader. This suggests that Shedd is likely a practicing Christian, possibly with evangelical leanings.

The mission work is more recent, so that indicated he was quite religious when at the ODNI.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Major doubts Wise is him, he's not into religious stuff like this nor UAP topics. He was never at ODNI either. I didn't get the chance to dive deep into this part, so, I'm unsure the full set of references, but Wise also wasn't a DIA employee in the traditional sense, he was acting as the DD on a Joint Duty Assignment from the CIA.

 

[Scaramanga]

We have no evidence the conversation with 'Devon Woods' ever happened. What strikes me as pertinent is that Elizondo expresses alleged shock at the 'demons' ideology...as he says ' I couldn't believe what I was hearing. This was a senior intelligence official putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.'...

...and yet, that is pretty much the same road Elizondo himself has gone down. Bear in mind that at the time Elizondo joined and supported TTSA, Tom Delonge was already flirting with the whole 'UFOs are demons' ideology.

 

[PublicStranger]

...and yet, that is pretty much the same road Elizondo himself has gone down. Bear in mind that at the time Elizondo joined and supported TTSA, Tom Delonge was already flirting with the whole 'UFOs are demons' ideology.

I believe Elizondo is alluding to the idea that Devon Woods refusing to investigate "the phenomena" due to his belief that they are "demons" as putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.

 

[JMartJr]

I believe Elizondo is alluding to the idea that Devon Woods refusing to investigate "the phenomena" due to his belief that they are "demons" as putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.

Which seems odd. IF I beleived there were literal demons flying around US air space and military instalations, that would seem to me to be a threat worth investigating and developing/deploying countermeasures thereto. There are traditional things that are supposed to be effective defenses against demons, which could be tested and evaluated and added to our defensive arsenal. (That may sound tongue-in-cheek but is not meant that way. If I beleived demons were real, and beleived they were doing the things UFOs are reported to do, I'd have to take them seriously as a threat.)

The failure to do so (so far as we know) suggests to me that UFOs=demons is possibly an intentionally unfalsifiable ad hoc hand-wave to avoid the various arguments about what is possible or impossible for high tech spaceships. If you replace "seems almost like magic" technology with actual magic, arguments over what is possible fade away like... well, like magic.

 

[MyMatesBrainwashed]

I can't imagine the look on my face.

Shouldn't have to imagine. Should be able to remember.

Definitely my favourite line of story telling.

 

[Ann K]

I believe Elizondo is alluding to the idea that Devon Woods refusing to investigate "the phenomena" due to his belief that they are "demons" as putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.

I think the reference was pointing out the fact that improbable and unprovable "magic" beliefs were held by both Woods and Elizondo (and both were being unwittingly subsidized by the American public). A researcher who has already formulated his conclusion before the investigation provides any evidence is a very poor investigator indeed.

 

[Duke]

We have no evidence the conversation with 'Devon Woods' ever happened. What strikes me as pertinent is that Elizondo expresses alleged shock at the 'demons' ideology...as he says ' I couldn't believe what I was hearing. This was a senior intelligence official putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.'...

...and yet, that is pretty much the same road Elizondo himself has gone down. Bear in mind that at the time Elizondo joined and supported TTSA, Tom Delonge was already flirting with the whole 'UFOs are demons' ideology.

Just as we had no evidence of Grusch's conversation(s) with NAISC spook "Jonathan Grey."

A spokeswoman for the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) said the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base center has no record of an employee who has adopted the alias of "Jonathan Grey," the person who was recently quoted in a news article outlining the claims of an Air Force veteran who said the federal government had spacecraft of non-human origin.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/loc...f-a-jonathan-grey/AALLBEZPJNBPNAB4J7DIL252VM/

That said, in the grand scheme of things, whether Elizondo had such a conversation is kinda irrelevant, whoever the guy was/is. As you and others pointed out, the use of demonic activity as a possible explanation for UFOs is nothing new. I remember reading that back in late 1960s, and even as 13-14 year old I know I didn't put much, if any, stock in that claim.

Regardless if "Woods"did tell him that, I think Elizondo included that story to influence uninformed readers. Ufologists drop names/titles/ranks fairly often to impress the masses, including claiming privileged access to the dreaded "insiders." Ever heard Steve Quayle? He must a have Roladex full of GOs.

 

[AllTheQuestionsToday]

Which seems odd. IF I beleived there were literal demons flying around US air space and military instalations, that would seem to me to be a threat worth investigating and developing/deploying countermeasures thereto. There are traditional things that are supposed to be effective defenses against demons, which could be tested and evaluated and added to our defensive arsenal. (That may sound tongue-in-cheek but is not meant that way. If I beleived demons were real, and beleived they were doing the things UFOs are reported to do, I'd have to take them seriously as a threat.)

The failure to do so (so far as we know) suggests to me that UFOs=demons is possibly an intentionally unfalsifiable ad hoc hand-wave to avoid the various arguments about what is possible or impossible for high tech spaceships. If you replace "seems almost like magic" technology with actual magic, arguments over what is possible fade away like... well, like magic.

I don't know what these claimed people believe or not, but there's a school of fundamentalism that if I remember right does teach and preach that even thinking about or acknowledging such things exists gives them power and power over you. Members are from an external POV essentially taught to pretend its not there and ignore it.

 

[John J.]

Which seems odd. IF I beleived there were literal demons flying around US air space and military instalations, that would seem to me to be a threat worth investigating and developing/deploying countermeasures thereto. There are traditional things that are supposed to be effective defenses against demons, which could be tested and evaluated and added to our defensive arsenal.

If Lou's account is accurate, if his confidant is David Shedd and if Shedd is a Reformed Presbyterian Church believer, I'd guess Wise's view would be religious belief and observance, in line with the teachings of the Reformed Presbyterian Churches of North America, is the only countermeasure needed or likely to be effective.

 

[FastIndy]

I don't know what these claimed people believe or not, but there's a school of fundamentalism that if I remember right does teach and preach that even thinking about or acknowledging such things exists gives them power and power over you. Members are from an external POV essentially taught to pretend its not there and ignore it.

As someone who grew up inside of a fundamentalist Christian household and was very involved in evangelical Christianity, I can say that this was absolutely the case, at least in my area. I was taught that demons are real, can interact with the physical world, and that acknowledging their presence is about as far as you want to go. To attempt to interact would be to draw their focus, very stupid, and very taboo. It's an interesting perspective going from that to Catholicism, where at least some attempts are made to put up a defense.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

If Lou's account is accurate, if his confidant is David Shedd and if Shedd is a Reformed Presbyterian Church believer, I'd guess Wise's view would be religious belief and observance, in line with the teachings of the Reformed Presbyterian Churches of North America, is the only countermeasure needed or likely to be effective.

Just to note again this person referenced is definitely not Wise. Wise is not religious like this and the account does not at all align with how Wise talks or interacts. There'd be some procedural hiccups also, eg, Wise never worked for or was attached to any ODNI function.
I didn't see this full part of the book but from the snippets above, it seems like he is saying that, "Woods" went from the ODNI to DD/DIA. Given Wise did not serve at all with the ODNI, it is not possible he went from the ODNI to being the DIA DD. Don't really want to break it down unless it becomes very debated, but, Wise's rough career history is not unknown, he is a public personality, you can pair his writings and podcast features together and find out what he was doing right before the DD assignment and follow quite a bit of his career in rough generalities and assignments.

 

[Eburacum]

I suppose one might say that 'sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from demons'.

Also that 'a wide range of unconnected, unidentified phenomena in the Low Information Zone is indistinguishable from demons'.

 

[Mendel]

Major doubts Wise is him,

Do you have on opinion on Mick's idea that it may be Shedd?

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Do you have on opinion on Mick's idea that it may be Shedd?

I admittedly know far less about Shedd, nor is he a public personality to stress test things through his own content. I do think it aligns much better though. Shedd had variously served primarily in attachments to the NSC and ODNI for the early 2000s up into the 2010s though, which would cover most of Elizondo's career up to the point of the snippet focused on. His specific roles would also align better to how Elizondo speaks about "Woods".
We have the religious point down solid, although, rotating back to the above, I'm not sure how Shedd interacts with folks and since he's not a public personality it's tricky to find content to use as references.
I think, with the information we have currently and the possibilities, it would be pretty rigid analytically to tag Shedd instead of Wise.

 

[John J.]

f Lou's account is accurate, if his confidant is David Shedd and if Shedd is a Reformed Presbyterian Church believer, I'd guess Wise's view would be religious belief and observance, in line with the teachings of the Reformed Presbyterian Churches of North America, is the only countermeasure needed or likely to be effective.

Just to note again this person referenced is definitely not Wise. Wise is not religious like this and the account does not at all align with how Wise talks or interacts.

Apologies to all, I mis-typed; should have put "...I'd guess Shedd's view..."
Makes a bit more sense that way!

It was in response to @JMartJr's perfectly sensible (in the context!) post,

IF I beleived there were literal demons flying around US air space and military instalations, that would seem to me to be a threat worth investigating and developing/deploying countermeasures thereto. There are traditional things that are supposed to be effective defenses against demons, which could be tested and evaluated and added to our defensive arsenal

As I understand it, Presbyterians (especially Reformed Presbyterians) don't hold much with Holy water/ rosary beads/ crucifixes/ flyers for Church of England jumble sales/ garlic bulbs as having power of their own, the crucial factor is the honest (and quite specific) faith of the bearer, which can suffice without the accoutrements.

 

[Scaramanga]

I believe Elizondo is alluding to the idea that Devon Woods refusing to investigate "the phenomena" due to his belief that they are "demons" as putting his religious beliefs ahead of national security.

Yes, but my point was skepticism that the conversation ever happened. Elizondo then doesn't have to explain why he himself went for the demons theory ( especially via Tom Delonge and TTSA ) but can rest on an invented ' the DOD already knows its demons ' line of reasoning that gets him off ever having to explain why he thinks its demons. Quite a clever ruse, really.

 

[Scaramanga]

As I understand it, Presbyterians (especially Reformed Presbyterians) don't hold much with Holy water/ rosary beads/ crucifixes/ flyers for Church of England jumble sales/ garlic bulbs as having power of their own, the crucial factor is the honest (and quite specific) faith of the bearer, which can suffice without the accoutrements.

There are various pop culture claims, which I have never seen substantiated, that calling on the name of Jesus can make alien abductors go away. That in turn lends to the 'demons' interpretation...but as with all UFO culture its a chicken and egg thing and its often the case that the pop culture comes first. Ideas of UFOs being demonic go way back, almost as far as UFOs themselves. There are UFO books on the topic as far back as the 60s, and John Keel's 'Operation Trojan Horse' in 1970 only goes to show the topic has existed for many decades and had more than enough time to filter into the subconscious.

 

[Scaramanga]

Just as we had no evidence of Grusch's conversation(s) with NAISC spook "Jonathan Grey."

Add the infamous 'Wilson memo' to that. There's some evidence a memo does exist...but as it claims to be a transcript of a conversation we will never have proof of what really transpired.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I guess I'm wondering what the point of this snippet in the book is. We have Elizondo claiming an important higher IC official, that also served as a mentor to him, was a radical evangelical with a sincere belief in the existence of demons, but then gives him a pseudonym. What's with the pseudonym? It seems the standard UFOlogical approach to "disclosure". Maybe it's this or maybe it's that, could be this guy or maybe not, follow the Queen, you know what I mean.

The idea that some high-level members of the military and IC are in fact radical evangelicals with a possible US Theocracy agenda is nothing new, it's been around for a while. There were a few articles I found, but like the one from the Economist, they were behind a paywall, but here is an abstract from an academic paper along the same lines:

American evangelicals have become dominant players within the United States government. One particularly important domain of elite activity has been the U.S. military. Through important institutions like the Pentagon and the U.S. Air Force Academy, a cohort of civilian and military leaders have brought their faith to bear in their professional responsibilities and forms of public self presentation. Drawing on data from interviews with 360 national, public leaders who are evangelical as well as leaders of evangelical institutions, this essay traces the expressive and institutional elements of evangelical activity within the U.S. military.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45369138

So, we might have Elizondo relating an actual incident that is consistent with some known practices, but then he chooses to assign a pseudonym to the person that said this. But then he also gives clues to discern who this person was and if those clues are accurate, he's still throwing that guy under the bus in effect. Anybody in that world would know who this is, so again what's with the "Devon Woods"? I would argue if he wanted to relay this story without outing the guy, he would just call him an "unnamed IC official" or something like that and not give the clues. In this case he's almost saying "this guy said this" but "I didn't say it was THAT guy" wink, wink.

Or, Elizondo is relating something he came across, possibly multiple times, and has created a composite character with a made-up name to represent the overall situation. The clues may point to Shedd being one of the people, but the pseudonym allows him to say it wasn't exactly or only Shedd.

It's also possible Elizondo never had this conversation. He's aware of the controversy about evangelicals in the military/IC so he made up a person, "Devon Woods" to get it into his book. The cluse may just be his random assemblage of different departments and people 15+ years later.

The story works both ways. It's something some of his readers are into, the demonic-paranormal-SWR-UAP mix up that DeLong and others push AND it's a convenient excuse as to why the government wasn't really studying UAPs as he had previously claimed. Remember, part of this book has to address why AATIP was not what he and others have been saying it was for years. Some no longer available book snippets suggest Elizondo is now claiming he ran AATIP by himself with no authorization possibly with misappropriated funds, it was just his personal side-hustle. He was courageously doing the UAP work that needed to be done, because religious nutters were blocking a real UAP program because they were afraid of demons.

 

[Ann K]

So, we might have Elizondo relating an actual incident that is consistent with some known practices, but then he chooses to assign a pseudonym to the person that said this. But then he also gives clues to discern who this person was and if those clues are accurate, he's still throwing that guy under the bus in effect. Anybody in that world would know who this is, so again what's with the "Devon Woods"? I would argue if he wanted to relay this story without outing the guy, he would just call him an "unnamed IC official" or something like that and not give the clues. In this case he's almost saying "this guy said this" but "I didn't say it was THAT guy" wink, wink.

Or, Elizondo is relating something he came across, possibly multiple times, and has created a composite character with a made-up name to represent the overall situation.

OR ...we are giving more thought to this than Elizondo did, in which case we do not have enough clues to ascribe his motivation. I'm sure you have seen enough examples of people blurting something out without giving it much thought, and the same thing could happen when a person dictates a book to be typed up by someone else later, or when a person dictates anecdotes for a ghost writer.

 

[John J.]

Just as we had no evidence of Grusch's conversation(s) with NAISC spook "Jonathan Grey."

Jonathan Grey is such a weird pseudonym for an intelligence officer.
I'd guess a lot of people who've read espionage thrillers or accounts of covert ops are familiar with the "grey man" (or gray man) concept. By choosing a name that might appear to reference this, the NAISC officer (or Grusch) actually draw more interest, exactly the opposite of a grey man tactic.

Or maybe that's the intent; Elizondo, Grusch and maybe a few others do an awful lot of
"I've been an intelligence and security officer beyond reproach for years, here's all the secrets 'they' haven't told you.
I have a proven record of assimilating data from diverse sources and interpreting it to provide cast-iron solutions, here's my latest conjecture based on a second-hand story from a dubious source".

 

[Duke]

Jonathan Grey is such a weird pseudonym for an intelligence officer.
I'd guess a lot of people who've read espionage thrillers or accounts of covert ops are familiar with the "grey man" (or gray man) concept. By choosing a name that might appear to reference this, the NAISC officer (or Grusch) actually draw more interest, exactly the opposite of a grey man tactic.

Or maybe that's the intent; Elizondo, Grusch and maybe a few others do an awful lot of
"I've been an intelligence and security officer beyond reproach for years, here's all the secrets 'they' haven't told you.
I have a proven record of assimilating data from diverse sources and interpreting it to provide cast-iron solutions, here's my latest conjecture based on a second-hand story from occasion dubious source".

Yeah, the whole "identity he uses inside the agency" as referenced in the article I posted in #10 above is a crock. I worked with those folks off and on for years going back to the FTD days, even seconded to them on a couple occasions. Nobody used fake identities or code names, they were more technical analysts, not field agents or special operators. Anyone who worked for or closely with NAISC would know to raise the BS flag on that claim.

 

[MapperGuy]

Yeah, the whole "identity he uses inside the agency" as referenced in the article I posted in #10 above is a crock. I worked with those folks off and on for years going back to the FTD days, even seconded to them on a couple occasions. Nobody used fake identities or code names, they were more technical analysts, not field agents or special operators. Anyone who worked for or closely with NAISC would know to raise the BS flag on that claim.

Mr Elizondo reads too many spy novels. Only covert agents in foreign countries need such things.
One big drawback to using fake names is it's effect on your resume, how can you say you worked someplace when that someplace has no record of your ever being there? Can't just list all of your fake names on your resume, that lets the cat out of the bag. Not to mention the security people updating your security clearance asking you where you worked last? What do you do when you go into a meeting with people from different offices who each know you by a different name? Could get awkward, especially when they call security to find out who you really are.

 

[Mendel]

What's with the pseudonym?

We do not know what edits were required to get the book approved by the DOPSR.

 

[Mendel]

Add the infamous 'Wilson memo' to that. There's some evidence a memo does exist...but as it claims to be a transcript of a conversation we will never have proof of what really transpired.

@Eburacum wrote in https://www.metabunk.org/threads/da...-bodies-of-non-human-origin.12977/post-292265 :

Greenwald's assessment of the case is here.
https://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/the-admiral-wilson-leak-an-analysis/

The admiral at the center of controversial notes describing his inability to access a classified UFO research program says the documents are bogus. Furthermore, he says the alleged author of those notes, physicist Dr. Eric Davis, never interviewed him."

 

[AllTheQuestionsToday]

As someone who grew up inside of a fundamentalist Christian household and was very involved in evangelical Christianity, I can say that this was absolutely the case, at least in my area. I was taught that demons are real, can interact with the physical world, and that acknowledging their presence is about as far as you want to go. To attempt to interact would be to draw their focus, very stupid, and very taboo. It's an interesting perspective going from that to Catholicism, where at least some attempts are made to put up a defense.

I'm more than a bit of practice on my schooling for that, but I believe the Catholic doctrine was, at least, along the lines of unless you willingly choose to "let in" some sort of naughty demon-y thing, it had no official or real power over you. Whereas with your side of the house, simply paying heed was enough to get you fucked over spiritually or even physically.

Given the sheer weird disproportionate concentration--why, anyway?--of extreme Protestant fundamentalism around the geographic location of the Air Force Academy (in and around Colorado Springs), it's not surprising that a lot of that mindset would permeate over time the upper ranks of the Air Force... that anything "not human" is an existential spiritual threat.

Toss in the mythology/stories that we have all collectively fucked up and misinterpreted aliens as "gods" in the religious sense, and you end up with if there is an iota of truth to this all, that the religious fundies in positions of power in the Air Force and Congress would frankly lose their collective shit religiously at even the suspicion of aliens=true.

If we've ended up theoretically wasting a lot of time since the 1940s on account of the feelings of religious fundamentalists, good grief.

 

[JMartJr]

religious fundamentalists

Correct and neutral terminology.

fundies

Emotionally charged insult term.

Might be most useful to avoid the latter?

 

[NorCal Dave]

Given the sheer weird disproportionate concentration--why, anyway?--of extreme Protestant fundamentalism around the geographic location of the Air Force Academy (in and around Colorado Springs), it's not surprising that a lot of that mindset would permeate over time the upper ranks of the Air Force... that anything "not human" is an existential spiritual threat.

Is there a disproportionate concentration of "extreme Protestant fundamentalist" in and around Colorado springs? As of now, this is just an unsubstantiated claim you're making. I would think first one would need to differentiate Protestant fundamentalist from run of the mill Protestants, then differentiate between "extreme Protestant fundamentalists" and run of the mill Protestant fundamentalists.

Once an agreed upon definition of "extreme Protestant fundamentalist" is arrived at then one can try to determine if there are more or less of them in any particular area. Not impossible.

As an example, we can maybe agree that a run of the mill member of the Church of Latter-Day Saints, Mormons, are people that are part of and follow the publicly known prescripts of the Mormon church based in Salt Lake City. We can then look at various demographic studies and find there is a higher percentage of Mormons in the state of Utah and portions of Idaho, Wyoming and Nevada for various historical reasons.

Can the same be said of so called "extreme Protestant fundamentalist" in Colorado?

Toss in the mythology/stories that we have all collectively fucked up and misinterpreted aliens as "gods" in the religious sense

I have no idea what you're saying here. There are various stories and mythologies about what humans regard as Gods as far back as the dawn of written languages and likely much further back than that. Are you insinuating that these stories are wrong in that they should really be about aliens? As in Ancient Aliens? That's what it sounds like. It's confusing.

If we've ended up theoretically wasting a lot of time since the 1940s on account of the feelings of religious fundamentalists, good grief.

Again, what are you trying to say? That the government has NOT studied UFOs since the '40s because of religious fundamentalist? That's not true, from project Blue Book to the Condon Committee to the UAP Task Force and AARO, the government has looked into UFOs over and over again. Whether you or others agree with what they found or didn't find and if any religious beliefs had anything to do with those results is up for debate.

Elizondo also plays the gods as aliens card, but with the usual "maybe, maybe not". This snippet from his book provided on Jason Colavito's' blog recounts things from Genisis and the apocryphal Book of Enoch including the Nephilim, Giants and the Watchers with the obvious conclusion:

Enoch's journey is filled with heavenly accounts, including descriptions of angelic and demonic hierarchy, God's throne, God's inner circle of guards, and even the language of the supernatural. On paper, Enoch's travels don't sound that dissimilar to reported nonhuman encounters. We also looked at the sixth chapter of Genesis. That's the chapter that contains the story of Noah's ark. Before we get to Noah, verses 1 through 4 of that chapter quickly share that otherworldly beings came to earth and mated with human women. Some translations call these offspring giants, while others refer to the visitors by the original Hebrew word, Nephilim, which some scholars say means something like fallen angels, or beings that cause others to fall.

If Genesis 6 were a movie, the Book of Enoch would be its prequel. (Enoch is said to be Noah's grandfather.) in the book, the Nephilim discuss their plan to take earthly women as their wives. The Book of Enoch also refers to these heavenly beings as Watchers. Two hundred Watchers travel to earth to enact this plan.

Nephilim ... Watchers ... angels ... aliens.

Or maybe not, as Elizondo isn't advocating the Ancient Aliens theory:

To be clear, I'm not advocating the ancient astronaut hypothesis that many today believe. I'm simply drawing some interesting parallels.

Or maybe he is:

The Bible as commonly read today offers us details of Ezekiel's Wheel and Jacob's Ladder. Are these stories merely instructive, or are they feeble attempts by humans to reconcile their bewilderment over seeing otherworldly technology?

https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/...-of-torture-haunted-by-bubbles-talks-nephilim

He's not saying they're aliens, just that maybe they're aliens.

Before worrying that the Government isn't studying UFOs properly because of religion, it should be noted the UFOlogist have convoluted religion with aliens for a long time.

Honestly, a lot of the bits of this book floating around just seem to be designed to appeal to each slightly different audience for multiple Discovery networks dubious programing. So far it seems Elizondo has included aliens, ancient aliens, UFOs, giants, ESP, the Nephilim, the Watchers, demons and the paranormal. As noted upthread, just waiting for Bigfoot to show up.

 

[John J.]

Toss in the mythology/stories that we have all collectively fucked up and misinterpreted aliens as "gods" in the religious sense

At risk of going a bit off-topic, I think the reverse is more likely- ancient astronaut enthusiasts, largely inspired by Erich Von Daniken, take religious texts, stories from mythology and archaeological evidence out of context and interpret them as evidence for UFOs/ aliens visiting Earth in the past.

Given the sheer weird disproportionate concentration--why, anyway?--of extreme Protestant fundamentalism around the geographic location of the Air Force Academy (in and around Colorado Springs)

Different religions/ Christian denominations sometimes have differing views on engagement with wider society and military service, so some, e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) - who are theologically very different- are under-represented, others over-represented. I think I read Mormons are disproportionately likely to serve in the US armed forces, with a quick look I can't confirm this, but found

Latter-day Saints in the military do not need to feel torn between their country and their God. In the Church, "we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Military service shows dedication to this principle.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; War

and

Citizens owe an allegiance to the governments they live under. Sometimes this involves military service and going to war. Mormons accept these responsibilities.

Learn Religions: How Mormons Feel About Military Service and War, Krista Cook updated 25 June 2019

Interestingly, the denomination David Shedd might come from, the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, traditionally had an abstentionist view regarding state (national) connections,

Since the Constitution contains no reference to Christ or to the Covenants, Reformed Presbyterians refused to vote, hold governmental office, serve on juries, or swear any oath of loyalty to the United States government or any lower government; Canadian members similarly refrained from such activities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Presbyterian_Church_of_North_America, though this viewpoint lessened by 1969.

The RPCNA is a very small denomination, 7076 members in 2016 according to Wikipedia, so even if Shedd is Devon Woods, and if his ideas on UFOs are religiously motivated, it's unlikely he would have that many confidants of his own faith in the US forces/ government agencies.

Of course, even if their (e.g.) church counsels against it, individuals might volunteer to serve, some Quakers have served in combatant roles with UK forces (other Quakers have served bravely in non-combatant medical aid roles).

But it may still come as a surprise to hear that a registered Satanist has served in the Royal Navy.

BFBS Forces News, Satanism In The Royal Navy, 17 March 2016

From reading other threads here, I think it's possible that a number of the "leading lights" of the US UFO enthusiast/ "government knows more than it's telling" scene are Mormons. Brandon Fugal, who bought Skinwalker Ranch from Robert Bigelow and who cooperated with the Skinwalker Ranch TV series

...was born into the Mormon church and considers himself spiritual.

This Is the Real Estate Magnate Who Bought Skinwalker Ranch, a UFO Hotspot, VICE website, M.J. Banius, 10 March 2020.

If correct, it's of legitimate interest, but we should be wary of thinking that any specific denomination has systematically "infiltrated" any given force or agency to pursue their own interests, when it must be more likely that the overwhelming majority of service personnel join for their own reasons, a significant one being loyalty to their country.

 

[Ann K]

Is there a disproportionate concentration of "extreme Protestant fundamentalist" in and around Colorado springs?

Yes, it's long been noted for it. This is from NPR.

Not long ago, Colorado Springs was a fairly small typical Western town with a mix of military people, blue-collar workers and a few colorful characters looking to escape city life. But today, it's a booming city that's home to more than 100 evangelical Christian organizations.

The city has become a special place for evangelical Christians, like Ted Haggard, pastor of the 11,000-member New Life Church and president of the National Association of Evangelicals.

Haggard came to Colorado Springs in 1984, and found what he calls a pastor's graveyard. Only 10 percent of the people went to church and, what he says were pagan-style religions had a good-sized following.

"The mega suburban churches weren't here at all, and there was a high percentage of New Age and satanic type of activity," Haggard says.

Colorado Springs was ripe for a spiritual transformation, he says. Dozens of other pastors came to the city, and many succeed in opening churches. Haggard's grew from 20 people meeting in his basement to a sprawling campus on the outskirts of the city. Today, his church is one of the largest in the state.

Colorado Springs also was becoming home to an increasing number of religious organizations, groups with a religious purpose that aren't churches. The largest such group is Focus on the Family, headed by James Dobson.

His multimedia ministry includes radio, television, film and video, magazines and books. Dobson's ministry centers on his, now daily, radio program, where he gives advice on family issues -- and more recently on politics.
....
Evangelical leaders promise that in coming years they'll be even more active in politics. And Colorado Springs will continue to be a base from which the evangelical movement launches initiatives that affect civic life across the nation.

Source: https://www.npr.org/2005/01/17/4287106/colorado-springs-a-mecca-for-evangelical-christians


But the Air Force Academy is there, and there have been many complaints about the overt proselytizing among the cadets.

The academy has been accused of tacitly and sometimes explicitly promoting evangelical Christianity, of allowing inappropriate proselytizing by faculty, instructors and cadets, and of creating an atmosphere hostile to those of non-Christian faiths or no religious faith at all.

Kristen Leslie, an assistant professor in pastoral care at Yale Divinity School, visited the academy in the summer of 2004 to observe basic training and help the chaplains respond to cases of sexual violence. A report by Leslie and academy chaplain Melinda Morton questioned the evangelizing that is occurring at the academy. In one instance, says Leslie, a Protestant chaplain at a worship service told cadets that if their bunkmates were not born again, they "would burn in the fires of hell."

At the same time, Mikey Weinstein, a 1977 academy graduate, was collecting evidence of more than 50 incidents of religious intolerance and inappropriate behavior by staff, faculty or cadets during his son's time at the academy. Some of these incidents have been reported in the media. Air Force Academy football coach Fisher DeBerry once hung a sign in the locker room that said, "Team Jesus Christ." Another instructor handed out tracts to cadets who came to see him. A high-ranking officer taught his cadets a hand signal meaning "Jesus Christ" and called upon them to display it at various assemblies.

https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2006-01/cadets-christ

DENVER — Religious intolerance is systemic and pervasive at the Air Force Academy and, if nothing changes, it could result in "prolonged and costly" litigation, according to a report issued by a group advocating strict separation of church and state.

The 14-page report, released Thursday, listed incidents of mandatory prayers, proselytizing by teachers, insensitivity to religious minorities and allegations that evangelical Christianity is the preferred faith at the institution.

"I think this is the most serious, military-related systemic problem I have ever seen in the decades I've been doing this work," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "There is a clear preference for Christianity at the academy, so that everyone else feels like a second-class citizen."

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...tians-dominate-air-force-academy-report-says/

All of these articles describe a problem of long standing, but at the AF Academy the complaints continue to this day. Most troubling is the overt intention of religion to influence politics.

 

[Scaramanga]

He's not saying they're aliens, just that maybe they're aliens.

They're demonic alien time-travelling reptilian Nordic insects who also can change into Bigfoot and werewolves and Mothman and Dino-beavers when glitches in the matrix occur....or when UFOlogists have books to write.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Yes, it's long been noted for it. This is from NPR.

Thank you for some sourcing on this subject. We could discuss the merits of the NPR story in another thread, but at least it's a starting point with a source to back up the claim. I wasn't saying it was or wasn't, just that it's not necessarily common knowledge.

 

[Ann K]

Thank you for some sourcing on this subject. We could discuss the merits of the NPR story in another thread, but at least it's a starting point with a source to back up the claim. I wasn't saying it was or wasn't, just that it's not necessarily common knowledge.

Your comment surprised me, because I thought everyone knew about the problems they've had at the Air Force Academy. I would have called it "common knowledge".

 

[JMartJr]

Your comment surprised me, because I thought everyone knew about the problems they've had at the Air Force Academy.

The list of things everyone knows is orders of magnitude smaller than we tend to think it is!

 

[NorCal Dave]

Your comment surprised me, because I thought everyone knew about the problems they've had at the Air Force Academy. I would have called it "common knowledge".

Well now I do. I knew about the sexual harassment problems there and the issue of some overtly evangelicals in the military but was not aware of this particular confluence of it. There's only so much time in the day to study UFOs, Bigfoot, pseudo-archaeology, the paranormal, Skinwalker Ranch and the rest while trying to keep up on all the other stuff happening.

Even if I had known all about it, I still would have pointed out that AllTheQuestionsToday was just tossing it out there with no sourcing. Something he seems to do often.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I was pretty far down the rabbit hole of Reformed Christian fundamentalism when I was younger, through the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), which is a sister organization to the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPC). It was quite different from the usual American flavors of Evangelical Christianity. The thought leaders I was familiar with like John Murray, Cornelius Van Til, Meredith Kline, Greg Bahnsen, John Frame, were mainly focused on doctrine and philosophy and establishing a form of theocracy similar to Abraham Kuyper's Netherlands in the early 20th century.

Contrary to much of Evangelical Christian fundamentalism, there was little to no teaching on faith healing, prosperity theology, miracles, demons, etc. I don't recall reading anything or hearing any sermons on those topics except to denounce people they felt were using those things to deceive people (e.g., Benny Hinn). I haven't been involved for almost twenty years, but I would be surprised if that has changed much.

I found a FAQ on the OPC website that agrees with my perceptions and recollections regarding their stance on demons.

Question
What is the OPC's position on demon possession? Can people still be possessed by demons, or did this end with the apostolic age?

Answer

The OPC's governing documents are, primarily, the Scriptures and, secondarily, the Westminster Standards and our Book of Church Order. While this gives us an enormous degree of uniformity in our beliefs and practice, there are also a number of areas where you will find differences of opinion. This is one of them! Speaking generally, I would say on a spectrum ranging from everything negative that happens in your life is demon-related to demonic possession is limited to the apostolic age and is no longer witnessed, OPC officers' beliefs would vastly be in the second arena. [...]

Source: https://opc.org/qa.html?question_id=455

This of course doesn't preclude a member of the RPC from thinking UFOs/aliens are demons, and AFAIK there's no teaching against that. I just thought it would be useful to point out the difference in emphasis since I had some personal experience, and Christian fundamentalism often brings to mind something like Kenneth Copeland ranting about airplanes full of demons.