Debunked: The Vaccine Hoax is Over / JCVI

lotek

Active Member
941559_10200328271143171_380650191_n.jpg

I keep seeing this link popping up again and thought for sure it was dead last year. i looked for a collected page on the subject and didnt find one so let us form it.

Id like to get at not just the article and the supposition points therein, but the FOIA - UK reference that is used rather often on the web. Id also like to cover the many other 'references' linked, including the widespread use of fallacy and examples of cognitive bias in these examples and references.

http://foodfreedomgroup.com/2012/09/29/the-vaccine-hoax-is-over-by-andrew-baker/

by Andrew Baker


1.)

2.)
3.)

4.)
5.)
6.)
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lotek

Active Member
BSEM March 2011
The Health Hazards of Disease Prevention

http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf

A level headed summary:
 

lotek

Active Member
1.
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/why-immunize



2. This is, flat out a lie. There have been a handful of problems in production, but non human system is flawless... there is zero evidence to support the idea that vaccines spread disease, nor is it covered in the FIOA pdf...
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm

3.
http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/too_many.html

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...eaken-childrens-immune-syste-myth-vs-science/


4. Not really. this is a supposition of the author based on data not shown in the pdf

5. Maybe sorta sometimes, and only to some degree. business problems, not some evil plan. There is a need for some modifications to some review processes, but not for the reasons shared within the antivac movement. This applies to every area of business and internet fear mongering and hoax perpetuation wont help..


----bbiab
--------
 

lotek

Active Member
2.)The claim:
------------------------------------------------
Heavy Metals: Hg/mercury/thermasol has nothing to do with autism. ZERO. If you actually still believe this and want to talk about it, i guess im open to rehashing this scam. It isnt even used very much these days anyway, yet autism and such are still "on the rise", whatever that actually means. Now, i feel i must point out that Al isnt a heavy metal... but i guess that is beside the point. This item is again one of the many that stem from a lack of understanding of biology. even if there WERE heavy metals, which there are not, the dose would be so low it wouldnt matter. ill let someone else handle this one as it has been covered by everyone to the earth's end and is dead to me.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/


Live/Active Viruses:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/flu-resource-center/10-flu-myths.htm

http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/features/top-13-flu-myths


Mycoplasma: I dunno what to say here really. i dont understand the claim? Is this simple a place to rope in the conspiracy theory loyal people who have convinced themselves they have 'cronic' lymes? Sure, mycoplasma bacteria are eeeevery were, no they are not making you sick from vaccines, i cant really find enough AVM stuff about this that isnt just totally off the wall. this is a complex matter but i feel it enough to point out that there are billions of them in you already, whats a few more? if youd like to talk more on this im open for it.

Poop!: LOL the ONLY, and i mean ONLY place this information even comes up is on the fear mongering 'Lists" and right wing or AVM pages/ytube vids... i honesty cant even find out where they(AVM) got the idea from. The best i can guess, is that someone didnt understand how biology/laboratory chemistry works, and assumed that since polio and rota were cultured from poop, the vaccines had to have poop in them. I have NO idea what to say here other than it is just simple made up and wrong. even if it wasnt completly a hoax, and it is, so what. sterile shit is clean, every surface everywhere is covered in non sterile shit, actual poop. so be happy? lol. Here is the only discussion i could find on the subject, a thread on what is typically a AVM website where even they think it is ridiculous.

This isnt totally accurate (the vaccine is even move removed in reality) but its to the point and cute:
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/794729/fecal-matter-in-vaccines


DNA Fragments: Again this is one of those points thats so off the wall ill go into it if you ask me to, but i feel its enough to say, so what? Basic lack of science/biology understanding.

Formaldehyde:
  • [/ex]http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine...-safety/vaccine-ingredients/formaldehyde.html

    This again, comes from a simple misunderstanding of biology. You, me, everyone, has not only formaldehyde in their blood, but several far more tocix aldehydes as well, all naturally. your liver is great at regulating the compound and it only becomes an issue in an industrial or work setting where safetey rules are not followed and exposure is huge. I have made aprox. 900g of formaldehyde in the last three years, stored it as formalin, and used about half of it. it sure tweaks your nose awful, and i take safety measures when handleing it, but dont consider it as dangerous as say gasoline with a high diethyl ether content.

    Again, your body makes it, all on it's own, the amount of formaldehyde in a vacine given to a baby or child is like taking a leak in a river, ergo there is no real problem here, only fear mongering.

http://www.vaccinetimes.com/formaldehyde-fears-without-merit/ <--Good info
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients.html <--Good info


Antibiotics, sterilizing agents, Polysorbate 80:

/fear mongering

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/

Polysorbate 80, TWEEN-80:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.840

Note: you eat both oleic acid and sorbitol as well, all the time on their own. I have 475g of Tween80 on a shelf, paid like 6 bucks. its not some scary thing. ive used it for soap/oil/smell related projects.

The next section is aimed at a certain group of people i know will be reading this whom i plan to direct to the page later. Please disregard if it seems off topic to you, it will be familiar to them =]

Fun fact, it has been used extensively within the clandestine drug industry to make poorly available, non polar, or lipid soluble recreational drugs enter the blood stream and cross the BBB quicker and in greater molecular number prior to liver processing and excretion. Its been used, along with cyclodextrins, to make DOx, 25x-NBOME, LSx, tryptamines, and various other classes of drugs work with a smaller technical dose or to protect them from the environment for distribution. So Chances are you have willingly consumed this polysorbate many times and enjoyed it damn well.... that time so little worked so well... sometimes its shit like this...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...dZTJqKK1mZpfjk9Dhf2zEnQ&bvm=bv.46340616,d.eWU
 

lotek

Active Member
3.) The claim:
As this point is neither related to the rest, nor has any supporting evidence, i will not be covering it. i may edit this post at a later time, or if asked to cover it. i think it was added to lend a link between the UK government having "lied" and the US government having "lied", or something to that effect.
 

lotek

Active Member
4&5.)The Claims:
4.)

5.)

Please first read this page, it is an annotated brief with the CDC where they cover their past over zealous statements to the degree they feel they happened. It also covers the uninformed type of reporter encountered in some of the end questions. Please read this with an objective mind. the man from the CDC is very honest and you need some understanding of what he is talking about before hand: http://www.psandman.com/col/presser.htm


Note please that These three 'striking examples" are a farce. two of them are of the least effected states every year. all three geographically far from its point of origin as well. "Predictable" would have been a better word choice than "striking'

Was it overstated..? This gets said about far more than youd think. bird flu, canine flu, every special little one. if a new strain of pathogen doesnt turn out to be highly virulent, some people act disappointed, like it was a hoax or had one pulled over on them. What i can really say to you about whether it was over stated or not comes down to degrees of understanding. if you atleast partially understand biological sciences, and international health regulations, the change in definition makes logical sense and is benign. However from the outside it can be seen as signs of deception i guess. The idea pushed by alex jone's group, that the who and cdc did it for profit all enter a quote circle from which no sources can be found. this typically does not bode well.

This has sort of happened before. im not so sure about the overstock, that seems a new issue, ill assume from people failing to communicate effectively.

Please read the following:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777968/
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2009/h1n1_pandemic_phase6_20090611/en/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2N2


this links to natural news..

If there is a place on the internet worse than natural news, it might be info wars, or the populist, i can never decide. However having once been a hippy i take natural news a bit more personal, so i am not going to give their points here much effort unless it is asked for. Cistern is a good word.

Sources go like this back in time: food freedom>natural news>progressive convergence>guerilla health report>the populist(!!!!!)>NCOW-pdf
By now it sounds real official, but its just a game of telephone...

We already covered polysorbate 80, the shit is awesome, all over the place, non toxic, and the vaccine amount is tiiiiiny.


Thats it for tonight,
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
I was booted off (suspended) the Icke Forum (about this very topic) for replying to a moderator's claim......where he listed all the horrible effects of "crap" that are in vaccines......

My post
(....at the end of that post...I gave a little sample of over-stating the bad effects of something....something very common.)

I also have been looking for the full transcripts that Dr Lucija Tomljenovic used in her argument. There are many links in her claims, but they all came up as "not found". The vaccination policy and the Code of Practice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI): are they at odds?
I wanted to see for myself if she was just cherry-picking, or if there really were cover-ups.

Regarding the VAERS database.....it's really not that useful, because the vast majority of "reports" are never verified....at least by VAERS. They say so.

(bold text done by me)

I tried it.
I just filled out the "Report Adverse Event Online" form, with made-up information, symptoms, and dates. Some info was required, much info was not. I got as far as "step 5 of 5", where I would click a button to send the report. I did not send the report though....I was just testing it.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Are the doctors, regulators, health policy makers....presenting the public with the best possible vaccine picture ? Why wouldn't they, if it is in the public's best health interest (and their own health) ??

But are they possibly inching and nudging the few known hazards to sound less harmful ?.....like "re-wording" warning labels and to produce a slightly rosier picture than previously described ? This seems to be only what these meeting transcripts imply, as far as I can tell.....(from what limited snippets Dr Tomljenovic has put forth.)

If they are indeed doing that....why ?
It could be because they are battling the war of a changing public opinion regarding vaccine safety issues....they are battling the frightening accusations and fear mongering spread by many who have decided, for one reason or another, that vaccines are not very effective.....all the way to outright "dangerous" and even part of some evil plan.
These ideas are copied , disseminated, and mutate across the internet by armchair scientists and pajama pundits just like a virus that ironically, is in need of a vaccine itself.

More ironies abound....like when fear-filled/angry people claim the whole vaccine "scam" is just big-pharma's way of making money.....yet their hero's and the much referenced purveyors of vaccine scares are themselves making $$ based on their deceptive stance.
It's curious why some people refuse to compare the irony of this. Maybe "size does matter".....and that compared to big-pharma, Dr Mercola is still viewed as "the little guy".
With the recent trends and practice of Eastern medicine on the rise in western culture, "Big Karma" is beginning to catch up with "Big Pharma" (long way to go, though)
Karmacuticals, with it's homeopathic remedies, body cleanses, herbal supplements, is a profit industry, with much of it's advertizing being free, via the blogosphere and social media sites.

The other irony (more of a feedback loop that's edging on exponential), is that the more that vaccine fears are spread by rumor across the net, the more the "doctors, regulators, health policy makers" will have no choice but paint rosier pictures or embark on more "vaccine campaigns"....hence the more anti-vaxers will run their own "campaigns", hence the more....hence the more.....hence the more..........and so on.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I see a big problem with the whole concept of saying that 'big Pharma' promotes vaccines to 'make money'. Vaccines are poor money makers, since once someone is vaccinated they will not need that drug for years. Money makers are the drugs that folks need to take daily or for things like 'penile erection dysfunction' or 'restless leg syndrom', not vaccines.
 

lotek

Active Member
I also have been looking for the full transcripts that Dr Lucija Tomljenovic used in her argument. There are many links in her claims, but they all came up as "not found"]
---
Regarding the VAERS database.....it's really not that useful, because the vast majority of "reports" are never verified....at least by VAERS. They say so.
-----
I just filled out the "Report Adverse Event Online" form, with made-up information, symptoms, and dates. Some info was required, much info was not. I got as far as "step 5 of 5", where I would click a button to send the report. I did not send the report though....I was just testing it.

This is a problem ive been having in producing posts for this thread. You cant get these "CDC scientist" statements, or the claims they all go off of. they dont exists sofar as i can tell. the NCOW thing gets spread around as proof of unrelated issues down the line from sites quoting sites who are quoting other sites who never realized that the NCOW pdf isnt even based off of scientific data....

Or it goes back to the pdf on the JCVI which is just cherry picking and a list of unrelated claims that stem out of a lack of familiarity with the sciences involved. It looks like a source of informations because it is a pdf, with an official name and page header, but its just some shit put together more sloppily than i did this thread.

Or all the claims on global monetary schemes, all that stems from a few pissed off politicians in europe. people who also cant seem to provides their sources well. people who may just be looking for money in times of austerity.. people who have a better understanding of politics and law than they do of biology and medicine.

It irks me that the AVM will put their faith in this group of politicians blindly, with ZERO checks into their credibility, while simultaneously trashing every other one and spreading mass mistrust of science/government officials simply because of the jobs they perform. It is blatant hypocrisy. they do it simply because it supports their point, their personal investment.

Its rather devoid of substance, leaving only the antivac stuff to deal with, and thats all so worn out and debunked to death that only a zealot would truly believe the AVM propaganda, one suffering very bad cognitive dissidence.


This reminds me of the haarp conspiracy almost. if you supply the public with irrelevant pictures/words that are sufficiently over their head, it will sound legit regardless of it's foundation or validity.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Those people who genuinely buy into the Mercola, Blaylock (and for that matter, Alex Jones) stories......most often they claim pride that they are "thinking outside the box", when in reality they have (as Mick said somewhere)...."just chosen a different box".
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Any idea what this is about?

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/merck-dr-admits-cancer-other-viruses-found-in-vaccines-video/


 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Well, it's from naturalnews and I rarely find any truth in their posts.

I don't believe that vaccines were first tested in Russia.

I found the transcript of this and it doesn't have important details, like where it was made and such.

The comment about leukemia was about the very early yellow fever vaccines. Not a common modern one>

I want more info before I will believe that 'interview'
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Found a discussion of the video, that also has a transcript...
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1858741#i
A main objection is that the video is edited to appear the way it does.
Edit.. a detail from the wiki biography...
unrelated but interesting...

(sorry lotek, perhaps a spin-off thread worth a proper look?)
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Good find. The transcript didn't seem 'right' to me. It sounded wrong. Editing could easily be the reason why.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
They were laughing because of Hilleman's dry sense of humor. He was cracking jokes, so they laughed. They were laughing at the absurdity.
Who were the interviewers ?

The whole interview was about (as expected)....ways to improve vaccines and how they eliminate problems. That goes very contrary to anti-vaxers who many think Merck etc. don't care about such things.
The same interview could be used to prove anti-vaxers are wrong.....and it does.
 

lotek

Active Member
Any idea what this is about?

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/merck-dr-admits-cancer-other-viruses-found-in-vaccines-video/



feel free to cover it, the guy i wrote this thread for never replied to me, and im pretty sure what you are talking about is related to the mycoplasma bit i mentioned before. its an awful misrepresentation tho
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Wrong. Hg has been found in vaccines and hypersensitivity makes it matter.
http://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository/swin:17374
which reads:
so 1 vaccine was found with mercury at a very low level, and that is being addressed, while 7 other vaccines had no detectable mercury at all.
There is also nothing in this about your claim that "hypersensitivity makes it matter"
From there:
so no, actually - it does not say that mercury has anything to do with autism at all - it says that there may be a link between sensitivity to mercury and autism - not the same thing.
Sorry about that.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I think this is also relevant for Vaccine deniers to consider:


- BBC article
It amazes me that people can still write nonsense about vaccines in this day and age based on this or that person's say so, and ignore the massive improvements in public health they have allowed all around the world!!
 
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Bill

Senior Member.
Wrong. Hg has been found in vaccines and hypersensitivity makes it matter.
http://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository/swin:17374
One vaccine out of eight was found to have traces of mercury
. This seems to be a quality control issue with the manufacturer. By the way what percentage of the population has the hypersensitivity you are concerned with and at what levels are they impacted?
And this study seems to be specifically designed to find a link between mercury and ASD, Fragile X and other disorders.
 

SPB

New Member

I say the jury is still out on this because I don't believe anything Gorski says when he involves himself in the discredit of Sodium Dichloroacetate on the basis that it is not proven, when he well knows that science is constrained by economics to the point that cheap drugs will never have a chance of gaining government approval. He is a liar at best.
 

SPB

New Member
By the way what percentage of the population has the hypersensitivity you are concerned with and at what levels are they impacted?
OK, I don't know the metrics but the aim of my post was to debunk the myth that vaccines are absolutely safe for everyone. That said; their overall efficacy can not be disputed, but for every crazed, ill-informed anti vaxer, there's a pro vaxer that thinks vaccination programs are and have always been infallible.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I say the jury is still out on this because I don't believe anything Gorski says when he involves himself in the discredit of Sodium Dichloroacetate on the basis that it is not proven, when he well knows that science is constrained by economics to the point that cheap drugs will never have a chance of gaining government approval. He is a liar at best.
Whatever you think about Gorski, his analysis of this paper is accurate. It is a poorly executed study designed to come to only one conclusion.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
OK, I don't know the metrics but the aim of my post was to debunk the myth that vaccines are absolutely safe for everyone. That said; their overall efficacy can not be disputed, but for every crazed, ill-informed anti vaxer, there's a pro vaxer that thinks vaccination programs are and have always been infallible.
I don't know of any professional that claims vaccines are safe for everyone but for established vaccines and vaccine protocols the number of people they aren't safe for is very small.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Conclusion: We take or accept the risk of death and/or bodily injury to travel in private autos all the time (and without much thought) but some of us strongly object to a death risk 330 times less likely when it comes to consenting to immunizations. Why? (see math and assumptions below)

The reasons "Why?" are IMO rather intriguing . . . a few that come to mind are:

1) The fear of getting some long term hidden consequences from the immunizations which are unknown presently but are irreversible in the future . . . long after the transient benefits of the immunizations are realized . . . i.e. . . . infertility, slow viruses, prions (spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs)), autoimmune sensitization, cross-species infection, allergies, etc. . . . things that are difficult or impossible to detect before administering the vaccines . . .

2) an overall distrust of the medical establishment, governmental authority and their motives . . . our protection or their protection and benefit . . . profit driven motives emphasizing short term profit over longterm financial liabilities . . .

3) some plot to depopulate the earth by reducing fertility and/or eliminating the weakest of the herd through selective mortality of subgroups . . .

4) The effectiveness of vaccines are way over estimated once the risks of contracting a targeted disease are taken into consideration and the ability of the vaccine to protect one against that specific strain of infection . . .

----------------


Anything ingested, inhaled, absorbed or injected into the body have potential risks associated with them . . . people have hypersensitivities, allergies, and responses to even substances considered foods which are needed to sustain life . . . so when taking vaccines, medicines, ingesting foods . . . in the crudest way it is simply a numbers game . . . because to some predictable percentage of people, even if minuscule, there will be less than desirable outcomes to include even death. The question becomes when is this percentage of undesirable outcomes unacceptable and who gets to decide when that level is reached? Then the other question becomes . . . is the choice to participate or to reject participation allowable? And how much coercion is proper if the overall benefits of participation vastly outweigh the risks of rejecting participation?

Obviously, people who trust their government and medical authority have little objections to vaccinations because they feel some protection from a dreaded disease or infection is acceptable . . . unless they or someone they are aware of has had significant adverse reactions to what they know or suspect was a vaccination or maybe have a compromised immune system or a history of hyperactivity to allergens . . .

Most of us accept considerable risks every day and don't think much about it by getting in a private automobile or some form of public transportation . . . we know with considerable accuracy that a certain percentage of people will die each year because of that choice. . .

Of the 2,423,712 deaths in 2007 in the US . . . 43,945 people died from auto accidents . . . or 1.81% of all deaths in a population of over 300,000,000 . . . so we weigh the benefits of auto transportation and most decide to take the risk . . . data on death rates due to immunizations are hard to come by but for example the cited article below indicates 40 deaths out of 90,000,000 children vaccinated was experienced . . . a rate well below the risk of death by private auto exposure . . . so if we extrapolate the 40/90,000,000 death rate to X/300,000,000 we get 133 deaths assuming all 300,000,000 took the vaccines . . . or roughly 133 people could die from immunizations while 43,945 died from auto accidents . . . so auto related deaths are (43,945/133) 330 times more likely than death caused by immunizations . . . not precise but rough approximations which illustrate the general risks involved . . .
Conclusion: We take the risk of death to travel in private autos all the time without much thought but object to a risk 330 times less likely when it comes to consenting to immunizations . . .


 
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MikeC

Closed Account
OK, I don't know the metrics but the aim of my post was to debunk the myth that vaccines are absolutely safe for everyone.

No one has ever said that AFAIK, so the myth only appears to exist as a strawman for vaccine deniers to knock down.
 

cosmic

Senior Member.
I say the jury is still out on this because I don't believe anything Gorski says when he involves himself in the discredit of Sodium Dichloroacetate on the basis that it is not proven, when he well knows that science is constrained by economics to the point that cheap drugs will never have a chance of gaining government approval. He is a liar at best.

If you look at what Gorski actually states about DCA, it's clear that he's not attempting to discredit it. He merely debunks egregious claims about DCA being touted a magical cure-all. Do read this article in full, and pay special attention to his conclusion:

Your post hints at some sort of belief in a cancer "cure" conspiracy, and aside from misrepresenting Gorski's position, I don't think you can offer any justification for branding him a liar. It's truly absurd to suggest a respected oncologist is somehow attempting to conceal potentially beneficial treatments considering he's devoted his medical career to battling cancer.

Of course, none of the above has any bearing on the paper you linked. Aside from being flawed in every other respect, it cites and relies on work that's been disputed and discredited. In the case of the Geiers (who were cited repeatedly), the elder has had his license to practice medicine revoked in multiple states, while his son was fined for practicing without a license. This represents an epic level of failure on the authors' behalf, and that's to be expected when dubious studies are used to shore up an anti-vaccine ideology.

The fact remains that no causal link exists between mercury/vaccines and autism, reinforced by findings from the world's major medical organizations.

OK, I don't know the metrics but the aim of my post was to debunk the myth that vaccines are absolutely safe for everyone.

Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated with these Vaccines?

I think it's time for you to reconsider your position(s).
 
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Staffan Debunked: Wikileaks releases unused footage of moon landing (Capricorn One movie scenes) Conspiracy Theories 2
Mick West Debunked: Neil deGrasse Tyson : "That Stuff is Flat" Flat Earth 10
Mendel Debunked: Air Map of the World 1945 is a flat Earth map Flat Earth 0
Trailblazer Debunked: Trees being cut down "because they block 5G" (tree replacement in Belgium) 5G and Other EMF Health Concerns 44
deirdre Debunked: Exemption from military service doc proves Jews had foreknowledge of WW2 (fake leaflet) General Discussion 0
Trailblazer Debunked: Obama called Michelle "Michael" in a speech. (Referring to Michael Mullen Jr) Quotes Debunked 0
Rory Debunked: 120-mile shot of San Jacinto proves flat earth Flat Earth 39
Rory Debunked: The Lunar Cycle affects birth rates Health and Quackery 26
Rory Debunked: Study shows link between menstrual cycle and the moon Health and Quackery 30
novatron Debunked: California Wildfires Match the Exactly Path of the Proposed Rail System Wildfires 3
Rory Debunked: "You must love yourself before you love another" - fake Buddha quote Quotes Debunked 7
W Debunked: Qanon claims there have been 51k sealed indictments filed this year. Current Events 11
K Debunked: Audio of David Rockefeller "leaked" speech in 1991 [Audio Simulation] General Discussion 2
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