Debunked: Tail Sprayers & Fake Infrared [Contrail Gaps and Photoshop]

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Contrails form when the water vapor in hot exhaust gasses mixes with the freezing cold exterior air. As it cools, the relative humidity is raised enough that a cloud is formed.

Since it takes a little while to mix enough for this to happen, there's a gap between the engines and the start of the contrail. There are many great closeups of this on various contrail spotting web sites.^


The relative size of the gap varies quite a bit ^depending on the size of the plane, its speed, and the ambient conditions. On a two engine plane (especially mid-sized jets like the A320 and B737) it is not uncommon to see the contrails start about at the tail of the plane. Notice how they are exactly lined up with the engines.


But they can also start quite a bit behind the tail^, again still lined up with the engines.


Or inside the tail^:


Unfortunately some proponents of the "Chemtrail" theory use low resolution photos or video of trails starting near the engine, and they suggest it is actually being sprayed from the tail. For example:

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/chemtrails-spraying-from-the-tails/ (http://archive.today/yM4GI)

With the following video:

Now it's quite clear from looking at the video in the context of the above photos that it's simply a two engined plane with the contrails starting approximately at the tail. The resolution of the video is too low to make out exactly where it starts. However it's quite consistent with many high resolution photos of similar planes, where the trail is clearly coming from the engine. Here I've collected images of similar planes leaving a range of contrails. The plane from the video is at the bottom middle. The most similar plane is in the center.

https://www.google.com/search?q=delta site:www.luchtzak.be&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch^

So there's nothing yet to suggest it's not just a contrail. But the maker of the video goes on to produce what he claims are "infrared" images that "prove" that the trail starts at the tail.



Consider for a second what is being claimed here - there's some super hot trail being emitted from the tail, and yet the jet engines, which have an exhaust temperature of up to 900°C (but typically 650°C at cruise), are not showing up at all? It is clear whatever this image is, it is not an infrared (heat) image.

An actual thermal image of a jet looks like:

Source: http://proof.nationalgeographic.com/2014/03/03/tyrone-turner-thermal-imaging/ (http://archive.today/QIrzC)
This shows the very hot exhaust cooling down very rapidly, so that by the time it reaches the tail, it's close to ambient air temperature.

In fact the image in the video is just a simple photoshop adjustment, known as a gradient map. This takes the brightness of each point in the image, and converts it to a color on a predefined color gradient or spectrum.



It's just a few mouse clicks, and many simpler programs might include similar functions as a novelty effect.


So all this is doing is showing you which bits of the image are brightest. It's purely a function of visible light (i.e. what you can see in the photo), and nothing to do with heat. We can apply it to any image:


Conclusion: It's just video of normal engine exhaust contrails that just happen to start near the tail, and some fake "infrared" images.
 
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Ian Simpson

New Member
Excellent work Mick I have to say. Some cracking images. It would appear that the tail theory is in trouble. I do wonder though, if you might have unwittingly played into the hands of the chemtrail campaigners by showing such details images of the trails emanating from the engines. If we examine a recent post on the Look-Up.org.uk Facebook page...

https://www.facebook.com/1410029482...123/1504703793093691/?type=1&relevant_count=1

...we see a very similar image accompanied by some factual information about the formation of contrails vs chemtrails. If the information in that image is correct, then it seems likely that it is indeed conclusive evidence that trails that form so close to an engine cannot possibly be natural or derived from freezing moisture. It would appear that this post might actually be counterproductive and supporting this evidence. Have you got yourselves into a pickle I wonder?

In the event that the tail-spraying theory transpires to be correct, then it would seem an obvious reason to make such alterations to the spraying systems, so as to try and negate claims such as that by Look-Up.org.uk.

There is, however, a significances discrepancy between the information claimed on the Look-Up.org.uk image and the information stated above in this post in so far as the exit temperature of the exhaust plume claimed by Look-Up is 1700C and on this post it is claimed to be 900C. Whichever figure turns out to be correct, it seems obvious that any visible trail that is formed so close to an engine cannot possibly be as a result of natural condensation of moisture in the exhaust plume of the engine. Even if we take the lower figure of 900C, we still have to try and explain a temperature drop of nearly 1000C in 2-3ms. That seems impossible by an stretch of the imagination.

Well done for such a great collection of images as well. As always MB is a great help to us all.


As with everything in this fascinating topic, time will tell eh MI5K.

Over and out.

PS. Also if we look at the thickness of the trails that seem to start at the tail fin, we notice they are immediately thicker than those which we traditionally see forming just behind the engine. This would suggest that they are not being sprayed from the tail, but are actually being sprayed from the usual nozzles located in the pylon, as seen on most 737/777 and A320 family. The increased distance of the visible part of the trail might be due to some tinkering with the mix of chemicals used, or possibly even the angle at which they are ejected into the plume, so as to delay very slightly the mixing of the chemicals with the hot exhaust gases. Just a thought.

PPS You have also unwittingly revealed the twin plumes that Look-Up.org.uk have discussed some time ago with your beautiful images. We clearly see 2 separate plumes coming from each engine. Once again this is pretty damning evidence of the introduction of 'substances' from pipes located on the pylon. Hmmm. It would appear that you are losing your touch Mr. West. Perhaps you might want to consider if posting these images was a good idea after all. Obviously it is very helpful to those trying to expose chemtrails so we thank you kindly as always.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
...we see a very similar image accompanied by some factual information about the formation of contrails vs chemtrails. If the information in that image is correct, then it seems likely that it is indeed conclusive evidence that trails that form so close to an engine cannot possibly be natural or derived from freezing moisture. It would appear that this post might actually be counterproductive and supporting this evidence. Have you got yourselves into a pickle I wonder?
Not at all. The information there is wrong, as the cooling comes from mixing, not radiative or transmissive heat transfer. The mixing of the hot exhaust gasses and the atmosphere happens very rapidly after the exhaust exits the engine. See:

http://aero-net.info/fileadmin/aeronet_files/links/documents/DLR/Schumann_Contrails.pdf
And countless other references.

There's a discussion of factors that influence the size of the gap here:
http://contrailscience.com/how-big-is-the-gap-between-contrails-and-engines/
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
PS. Also if we look at the thickness of the trails that seem to start at the tail fin, we notice they are immediately thicker than those which we traditionally see forming just behind the engine. This would suggest that they are not being sprayed from the tail, but are actually being sprayed from the usual nozzles located in the pylon, as seen on most 737/777 and A320 family. The increased distance of the visible part of the trail might be due to some tinkering with the mix of chemicals used, or possibly even the angle at which they are ejected into the plume, so as to delay very slightly the mixing of the chemicals with the hot exhaust gases. Just a thought.
I think that's simply a function of the resolution and contrast setting of the video. And there's no "tradition" of seeing contrails form just behind the engines. As seen above they form at a variety of distance.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
There is, however, a significances discrepancy between the information claimed on the Look-Up.org.uk image and the information stated above in this post in so far as the exit temperature of the exhaust plume claimed by Look-Up is 1700C and on this post it is claimed to be 900C.
I was going by the Exhaust Gas Temperature of a typical 737, which was listed here as being limited to 930°C at takeoff:
http://www.b737.org.uk/cfm56_soi.htm

Note that 930°C is 1706°F, so perhaps LUOK simply got their units wrong?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
PPS You have also unwittingly revealed the twin plumes that Look-Up.org.uk have discussed some time ago with your beautiful images. We clearly see 2 separate plumes coming from each engine. Once again this is pretty damning evidence of the introduction of 'substances' from pipes located on the pylon. Hmmm. It would appear that you are losing your touch Mr. West. Perhaps you might want to consider if posting these images was a good idea after all. Obviously it is very helpful to those trying to expose chemtrails so we thank you kindly as always.
Getting a little off-topic here. But the "2 separate plumes" illusion is easily explained if you consider how the mixing occurs - from the outside in. So you briefly have a hollow tube of contrail, so the sides of this look like separate trails until it gets more dense.
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
PS. Also if we look at the thickness of the trails that seem to start at the tail fin, we notice they are immediately thicker than those which we traditionally see forming just behind the engine.
Sorry, sir. NO...and I mean NO!

This comes from a person with 40+ years' experience as a pilot...including AT LEAST 22 years flying with a major commercial airline.

I am Type-Rated on the DC-9/MD-80, the B-737 (all series are covered) and the B-757/767.

I have ALSO flown, in my career, the B-727, the A-300 and the DC-10...all "right-seat" but rest assured, I KNOW those airplanes inside and out.

PLEASE feel free to ask me ANY questions, about modern airliners and aviation...ANY questions, I will be happy to answer.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
Ian Simpson wrote

PS. Also if we look at the thickness of the trails that seem to start at the tail fin, we notice they are immediately thicker than those which we traditionally see forming just behind the engine. This would suggest that they are not being sprayed from the tail, but are actually being sprayed from the usual nozzles located in the pylon, as seen on most 737/777 and A320 family. The increased distance of the visible part of the trail might be due to some tinkering with the mix of chemicals used, or possibly even the angle at which they are ejected into the plume, so as to delay very slightly the mixing of the chemicals with the hot exhaust gases. Just a thought.

PPS You have also unwittingly revealed the twin plumes that Look-Up.org.uk have discussed some time ago with your beautiful images. We clearly see 2 separate plumes coming from each engine. Once again this is pretty damning evidence of the introduction of 'substances' from pipes located on the pylon. Hmmm. It would appear that you are losing your touch Mr. West. Perhaps you might want to consider if posting these images was a good idea after all. Obviously it is very helpful to those trying to expose chemtrails so we thank you kindly as always.
No Ian. That is what you call clutching at straws. Remember that you claimed that these 'pylon nozzles' were retrofitted onto these aircraft. If you had done any decent research you would have found that the drain tubes on the pylons were fitted on the the A320 prototype and exhibited at airshows attended by hundreds of thousands of people. [...] Nobody to blame but yourself as you can't even comprehend why a pylon is fitted with drain tubes in the first place. Remember you even made the brazen claim that the Airbus manual had been fabricated. :rolleyes:

Debunked: Look-Up.org.uk Alleged "spray pipes" on A-320 are Pylon Drains

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...d-spray-pipes-on-a-320-are-pylon-drains.2855/
 
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MikeC

Closed Account
There is, however, a significances discrepancy between the information claimed on the Look-Up.org.uk image and the information stated above in this post in so far as the exit temperature of the exhaust plume claimed by Look-Up is 1700C and on this post it is claimed to be 900C. Whichever figure turns out to be correct, it seems obvious that any visible trail that is formed so close to an engine cannot possibly be as a result of natural condensation of moisture in the exhaust plume of the engine. Even if we take the lower figure of 900C, we still have to try and explain a temperature drop of nearly 1000C in 2-3ms. That seems impossible by an stretch of the imagination.
Or you could just consider the drop in pressure from inside the engine to atmospheric - which is very low at high altitude - and apply some of the ideal gas law - pV-nRT and all that - from high school physics.

you get a similar effect sometimes when you crack open a bottle of carbonated drink and a "mist" forms in eth ullage space at the top "instantly"

BTW it is a lot further than 2 m from the end of the engine to the first part of the contrail - the aircraft looks like it might be a 777, in which case engine is >7m long just by itself...so in your illustration it looks like 3-4 "engine lengths", which might easily be 30m.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
I was going by the Exhaust Gas Temperature of a typical 737, which was listed here as being limited to 930°C at takeoff:
http://www.b737.org.uk/cfm56_soi.htm

Note that 930°C is 1706°F, so perhaps LUOK simply got their units wrong?
That EGT limit is typical for most jet engines (900-950C) and is never approached in cruise ( unless you have an engine malfunction like a severe engine stall ).

Typical cruise EGTs for most engines is around 600-650C. 1700C would melt the back of the engine off the pylon.

Ian, you continue to reference the drain pipes on the pylons as the source of your supposed "chemtrails". You obviously missed the hoax that Max Bliss fell for, the source of that particular piece of disinformation.

These pipes BTW, are no more than 10 millimetres in diameter. The only way that a plume could develop to the size of the observed contrail would be if what was coming from the pipes was actually burning, I.e. Adding mass by chemical reaction. ( this explains the size of the plumes behind aerobatic aircraft; the oil they use gets burnt in the hot exhaust.) If it is burning, what part of the Geo Engineering plan is that? Aluminium Oxide doesn't burn BTW.

If they are spraying anything please advise how the substance has an invisible state and what that substance is? You can rule out aluminium oxide, barium and strontium straight away. Please also advise how it adds mass to spread out in an optically dense manner, instead of dissipating? Please advise the scientifically explained process that allows that to occur?

Your usual ignoring of pointed question will be sufficient evidence that you don't actually know.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That EGT limit is typical for most jet engines (900-950C) and is never approached in cruise ( unless you have an engine malfunction like a severe engine stall ).
Typical cruise EGTs for most engines is around 600-650C. 1700C would melt the back of the engine off the pylon.
Thanks. I figured it would be quite a bit less than the max, but went with 900°C to be conservative. I'll update the OP with 650°C
 

JDubyah

Member
Looking through that contrail-spotting site, there are some spectacular images of contrails silhouetted against the moon. I wonder if any of these will be passed around as 'LunarEngineering' or 'Oh my god, they've gone too far.. now they're spraying the moon!".

 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Are the "tail sprayer" believers confusing infrared, with thermal (heat) ?
If they were photographed with a thermal camera, the engines would glow the most.....not the long trail 1/2 mile behind the plane.

Edit......see my post below....

Here's a few thermal images...

transp10.jpg
waste-heat.jpg
13_11_21_THERMAL_0615.TIF_02.jpg
http://proof.nationalgeographic.com/2014/03/03/tyrone-turner-thermal-imaging/
 
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Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Just from pics I saw, its someone who's playing with colours to give the impression of it being legit. Im not saying that the groups that posted it afterwards are intentionally faking it, but someone somewhere faked the colours to make it LOOK like a heat sig. To the uninitated it looks exactly like something youd see in a movie or on TV, so it fits their idea of what a heat trail should look like. Would be nice if real FLIR images were shown on TV more often so that ppl could get an idea of what they REALLY look like... cuz most of the time, they're not all pretty.. they're grey scale.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Are the "tail sprayer" believers confusing infrared, with thermal (heat) ?
If they were photographed with a thermal camera, the engines would glow the most.....not the long trail 1/2 mile behind the plane.
Thermal cameras ARE infrared, they just add false color.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
(corrected) EDIT:....sure, "infrared" is a source and a radiation of heat.....and is part of how a "thermal camera" works.......but the video in question is obviously not showing a thermal/infrared signature.
(I did not explain it very well, in my above post.)
As Mick noted above.....the video is thinking that to "posterize" or "solarize" the image is the same as showing heat. It's not even close to being a true thermal image. (the video uses the term "thermal image")

True thermal cameras can be quite expensive.......
http://www.opticsplanet.com/heat-seekers-termal-imagers.html
 
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Trailspotter

Senior Member.
Whichever figure turns out to be correct, it seems obvious that any visible trail that is formed so close to an engine cannot possibly be as a result of natural condensation of moisture in the exhaust plume of the engine. Even if we take the lower figure of 900C, we still have to try and explain a temperature drop of nearly 1000C in 2-3ms. That seems impossible by an stretch of the imagination.
This thermal image and others in the above link show that the distances at which exhaust is cooling down (to the condensation temperatures) are quite short.
 

KC-10FE

Senior Member.
A good video of a KC-10 creating contrails, in the final few seconds of the clip, the "tail contrail" is visible...

 

KC-10FE

Senior Member.
That's a good illustration of the conrail gap, with the third engine being so far behind the other two:
View attachment 7927
Good snapshot; for those claiming the "spray" is coming from the tail section, they would have to explain how it is starting just in front of the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What would seal the deal would be the contrail from the #2 engine on the tail, starting quite some distance behind it.

First the chemtrail community said chemtrails were coming from the engines, then it was from the wings, then it was from the pylons, and now apparently it is coming from the tail. I wish they would make up their minds.
 

NZEd

New Member
I asked a couple of questions related to the look-up-uk image and have now been blocked on their facebook page. Seems they are not interested in anything they can't answer.
lookupuk.JPG
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I asked a couple of questions related to the look-up-uk image and have now been blocked on their facebook page. Seems they are not interested in anything they can't answer.
THAT is typical.

Whenever confronted with facts....the "true believers" just "BLOCK":


(Regards to Gary Larson....I found this online....and someone ALTERED it....)....but it is Gary Larsons' original, and should have a copyright .... somewhere).
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
congratulations "mick" you have a special mention on "geoengineering watch'
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/...actics-debunking-the-debunkers/#comment-58435
Look at their advice for how to deal with people who disagree with them:

Do those look like the tactics of people who know they are right?

Or the tactics of people who are running a scam and are terrified of being shown up by people who know more than they do?
 
There are people out there who will read that and believe it.

So what hope do you have of convincing them that chemtrails don't exist?

None.

I should note that I appreciate this site's sole purpose is not to convince those people but to provide answers to people who have questions.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Look at their advice for how to deal with people who disagree with them:

Do those look like the tactics of people who know they are right?

Or the tactics of people who are running a scam and are terrified of being shown up by people who know more than they do?
Reading the "negative" comments posted I clearly see the fingerprints of one particularly caustic and immature poster. Me thinks this one individual does more harm to rational debate than all others combined. I have banned him myself from my Threads (often) and he is presently banned. No amount of pleading has changed his insults and attacks. He stalks any Chemtrail Thread anywhere and lays a bomb usually within one or two posts. IMO, debunkers have an obligation to maintain the high ground. Debunkers need to let patience, reason and evidence be their guides not anger and frustration.
 
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keefe

Active Member
sorry - i put the quotes for a little joke, because they cast some doubt if that is really his name ... i thought the page is quite ironic since it lists the tactics "shills" use - to me they look more like what the ct believers do. I had a discussion on facebook with some ct believers recently and referred them to contrail science but was told that site is run by a well known cia shill, and like "william01702" when i asked them to point out anything on contrail science that was not true or disinformation i was told that i must be a shill ...

i agree that there is little hope of convincing believers - but i think by challenging them on the facebook page, at least that pointed other people in the group in the right direction - and there is hope - i used to believe in them myself for a while but eventually i found the contrail science site
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Reading the "negative" comments posted I clearly see the fingerprints of one particularly caustic and immature poster. Me thinks this one individual does more harm to rational debate than all others combined. I have banned him myself from my Threads (often) and he is presently banned. No amount of pleading has changed his insults and attacks. He stalks any Chemtrail Thread anywhere and lays a bomb usually within one or two posts. IMO, debunkers have an obligation to maintain the high ground. Debunkers need to let patience, reason and evidence be their guides not anger and frustration.
My speculation was correct:

 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
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