Debunked: Sandy Hook: The Guns, Assault Rifle, Gun in the Trunk, Handguns

[Mick West]

[ADMIN: This post contain the most recent information on the guns as of 1//20/2013. It has been BACK DATED to 1/11/2012 11:11:11 to keep it at the top (and also demonstrate back dating internet posts]

The guns at the scene were identified fairly quickly (after the usual media confusion) as an assault rifle, two handguns, and a shotgun left in the car. This was later clarified several times with the models being identified. Questions persisted thanks to the conspiracy theorists, so the police issued this press release stating the precise models of guns, and where they were found.

http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284

STATE OF CONNECTICUT Department of Emergency Services & Public Protection Connecticut State Police Public Information Office 1111 Country Club Road Middletown, Connecticut 06457​	Contact: 860-685-8230 DESPP.Feedback
Reuben Bradford Commissioner		Colonel Danny R. Stebbins Deputy Commissioner Division of State Police
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 18, 2013

** UPDATE **

STATE POLICE IDENTIFY WEAPONS USED IN SANDY HOOK INVESTIGATION;
INVESTIGATION CONTINUES​

In previous press conferences, the Connecticut State Police clearly identified all of the weapons seized from the crime scene at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
To eliminate any confusion or misinformation, we will again describe and identify the weapons seized at the school crime scene.

Seized inside the school:
#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber-- model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

This case remains under investigation.
Lt. J. Paul Vance

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Some confusion arose because of video showing the shotgun being recovered from the car. The Izhmash Canta-12 (more correctly called an Izhmash Saiga 12) shotgun looks somewhat similar to an AR15 style gun from a distance (like the overhead helicopter shot):


Compare with:



In this photo you can see the side handle used to eject shells, as you see the policeman doing in the video





Canta vs. Saiga:

Canta and Saiga are the same thing. The name is actually Saiga, in Russin this is written "САЙГА" and pronounced Saiga (in cyrillic С=S, A=A, Й=I, Г=G). The name is stamped САЙГА-12 on the gun when manufactured, and engraved SAIGA-12 for western buyers.



(Saiga-12 photos from http://s571.beta.photobucket.com/user/loftispawn/library/Izhmash Saiga 12 12 inch barrel )

Some theorists claim that the use of a shotgun was identified before the car was opened. They point to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ETkrxfYoQtc#t=1194s

However, the police scanner audio there (19:55) says:

Be advised, we could have multiple weapons, including long rifles and shotguns

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It does not say they HAVE shotguns, or a shotgun, or even a shotgun shell.

Another claim is that the media reported four handguns the day after the shootings. This is obviously someone just misinterpreting "four guns" as "four handguns", and it getting passed up the line. It was corrected the next day.

 

[Oxymoron]

Adam Lanza used a semiautomatic Bushmaster .223 rifle during his rampage.

I am not so sure on that aspect. Have you seen the video of the cop ejecting a shell from the gun in the boot of the car?

This guy seems to know what he is talking about re guns and this is what he says:

http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=312911&Messages=25

Subject: NO AR15 USED AT SANDY HOOK???
From: Brian in Oregon
Email:
Date: Tue, Jan 15, 2013 - 04:18 PM ET
Website Address:
I saved the video and did frame captures.
The firearm in the trunk has an operating handle on the side. It is in the typical location for a variety of firearms, such as the AK, SKS, Rem 1100, and the Saiga shotguns. There is also at least one AR15 made with an operating handle on the side, attached to the bolt.
While clearing the firearm, a cartridge or shell is ejected. While it is blurry, the size and dark coloring strongly suggest it is a shotgun shell of probably 12ga or possibly 20ga.
The police have reported it was a shotgun with a 20 round magazine. While there is no magazine visible in the video, there are 20 round 12ga drums made for the Saiga shotgun.
My conclusion is that the gun in the trunk is a Saiga 12ga shotgun.

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Also there seems to be no information about spent cartridge shells and contradictory evidence about shooting outside the school with accounts of shooters from a van and a car shot up whilst driving on the road.

It is all very confusing.

This is the Bushmaster 223 caliber Remington semiautomatic weapon, similar to the one reportedly used by Sandy Hook Elementary School killer Adam Lanza to shoot 20 children and six adults in Newtown, Conn.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/19...-a-lightning-rod-in-gun-debate/#ixzz2IFqKAPqZ
​

See at 1.20 the gun removed from car.

​

All I can say is, it is weird... as if they wish to stoke conspiracy theories. They state categorically that he used pistols and then it all changes to an assault rifle

 

[Mick West]

I am not so sure on that aspect. Have you seen the video of the cop ejecting a shell from the gun in the boot of the car?

Yes. He left the shotgun in the car, he took the XM-15 and two pistols into the school. He shot the kids with the XM-15, and then shot himself with a pistol.

Three guns in the school, one left in the car. Four guns becomes "four handguns" via miscommunications with the eager media wanting to say whatever new information comes along.

Media reports from early on are often wrong. Saying those early media report is somehow the "official story" is just cherry picking. The closest thing to an "official story" would be the Wikipedia page, which basically collates and references the most authoritative accounts of what happened, and should then distill something closest to the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting

At about 9:35 a.m., using his mother's Bushmaster XM-15,[18]​[19]​ Lanza shot his way through a locked glass door at the front of the school.[20]​[21]​ He was wearing black clothing, earplugs and an olive green utility vest carrying magazines for the Bushmaster.[22]​[23]​ Initial reports that he had been wearing body armor were incorrect.[24]​

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Lanza stopped shooting between 9:46 a.m. and 9:49 a.m., after firing 50 to 100 rounds.[47]​ He reloaded frequently during the shooting, sometimes firing only fifteen rounds from a thirty round magazine.[23]​ He shot all of his victims multiple times, and at least one victim, six-year-old Noah Pozner, 11 times.[48]​[49]​ He shot mostly in two first-grade classrooms near the entrance of the school, killing fourteen in one room and six in the other.[50]​ The student victims were eight boys and twelve girls, between six and seven years of age,[51]​ and the six adults were all women who worked at the school. Bullets were also found in at least three cars parked outside the school.[23]​ After realizing that he had been spotted by a police officer who had entered the building, Lanza killed himself with a shot to the front of the head from a handgun.[52]​[53]​[54]​[55]​

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A large quantity of unused ammunition was recovered at the school, along with three semi-automatic firearms found with Lanza: a .223-caliber Bushmaster XM-15 rifle, a 10mm Glock 20 SF handgun and a 9mmSIG Sauer handgun.[18]​[17]​[19]​[66]​ A shotgun was found in the car Lanza had driven to the school.[19]​ At home, Lanza had access to three more firearms: a .45 Henry repeating rifle, a .30 Enfield rifle, and a .22 Marlin rifle.[11]​[67]​[68]​[69]​

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Note the references. Wikipedia is not just some guys writing what they think. It's a summary of what's in the references.

 

[Oxymoron]

Yes. He left the shotgun in the car, he took the XM-15 and two pistols into the school. He shot the kids with the XM-15, and then shot himself with a pistol.

Three guns in the school, one left in the car. Four guns becomes "four handguns" via miscommunications with the eager media wanting to say whatever new information comes along.

Note the references. Wikipedia is not just some guys writing what they think. It's a summary of what's in the references.

Yes that clears up a lot of the 'misreporting/confusion'. Thanks

 

[Mick West]

Yes that clears up a lot of the 'misreporting/confusion'. Thanks

Just noticed I used AR-15 and XM-15 to refer to the same gun there (edited it in my original), which could add to the confusion. Just wanted to clarify that Bushmaster XM-15 is an AR-15 variant. AR-15 is a general term for a large family of similar weapons. XM-15 is a Bushmaster specific designation for a variety of rifles:
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/xm-15.asp

It does not seem like the police have actually identified the precise model used beyond a ".223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 rifle."

 

[Mick West]

I've updated the top post with more precise gun identifications.

 

[Unregistered]

A note on the comparison of the Saiga Shotgun v. the Bushmaster AR-15 style rifle. If you notice on the images, the receiver on the AR-15 extends about 3-4" below the forehand grip that covers the barrel, which includes the port to insert the magazine. The bottom of the Saiga receiver lies flush against the forehand grip and the magazine feeds directly into the receiver where it meet the forehand grip. In the video, it is pretty clear that, based on the officers placement on the gun, as he slides the charging handle and clears the chamber, that the forehand grip lies flush against the receiver, rather than having any type of extension below the point where the magazine is inserted into the gun and where the forehand grip meets the receiver. That is more readily seen because the office is clearing the gun, and therefore has more than likely already removed the magazine or the magazine was not in the gun in the first place. Either way, I am sold that the gun in the trunk is not and AR-15 but the Saiga shotgun. Nicely done, I have been doing extensive research looking for answers as all the questions continue to be raised. While I am mournful for the families and horrified by these event, I remain a proponent of gun rights and don't agree with the current agendas of the left against gun control. That being said, I believe unequivocally that people need to educate themselves on the truth and take in all available information before aligning them with either side of the debate. This is the first time I have been convinced of an answer to the the questions that I had. So in the interest of a brevity I abandoned quite some time ago, thank you for the information.

 

[Unregistered]

A note on the comparison of the Saiga Shotgun v. the Bushmaster AR-15 style rifle. If you notice on the images, the receiver on the AR-15 extends about 3-4" below the forehand grip that covers the barrel, which includes the port to insert the magazine. The bottom of the Saiga receiver lies flush against the forehand grip and the magazine feeds directly into the receiver where it meet the forehand grip. In the video, it is pretty clear that, based on the officers placement on the gun, as he slides the charging handle and clears the chamber, that the forehand grip lies flush against the receiver, rather than having any type of extension below the point where the magazine is inserted into the gun and where the forehand grip meets the receiver. That is more readily seen because the office is clearing the gun, and therefore has more than likely already removed the magazine or the magazine was not in the gun in the first place. Either way, I am sold that the gun in the trunk is not and AR-15 but the Saiga shotgun. Nicely done, I have been doing extensive research looking for answers as all the questions continue to be raised. While I am mournful for the families and horrified by these event, I remain a proponent of gun rights and don't agree with the current agendas of the left against gun control. That being said, I believe unequivocally that people need to educate themselves on the truth and take in all available information before aligning them with either side of the debate. This is the first time I have been convinced of an answer to the the questions that I had. So in the interest of a brevity I abandoned quite some time ago, thank you for the information.

Seems to me in teh video of them pulling a "long rifle" from the trunk, it seems to have a firing hand grip very much like the AR family of rifles. I just had to look up this forum again and see the "Shot gun" pictures and those seem to have the firing hand grip built into the stock rather than as a seperate piece. Lets see how the anti-AR people spin this now...

Let me guess, there are saiga shot gun variants with different butt stock options....

 

[Mick West]

Seems to me in teh video of them pulling a "long rifle" from the trunk, it seems to have a firing hand grip very much like the AR family of rifles. I just had to look up this forum again and see the "Shot gun" pictures and those seem to have the firing hand grip built into the stock rather than as a seperate piece. Lets see how the anti-AR people spin this now...

Let me guess, there are saiga shot gun variants with different butt stock options....

Yes there are:

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga12.shtml

 

[Mick West]

From the final report:

 

[deirdre]

very surprising this thread is so short since this was the main 'conspiracy theory'. a few things in your above (old?) Wikipedia quotes is incorrect which you probably know now after reading the report. cant remember if the report mentioned the shotgun was in the front of lanzas car initially. propped against the passenger seat in the front of the car. an officer moved it to the trunk early on, to 'secure the weapon'. That confused a lot of people as well since the national news didn't report that apparently. But it is mentioned in several online articles early 2013.

its possible that 'a shotgun' was reported early on since the shotgun was in plain site until it was moved to the trunk. I know I heard they found a shotgun but cant remember if it was on the news or wordof mouth. it was a long time (it seemed) before Any news of what was in the school came out. and even the next day the medical examiner only said 'a long gun'.

 

[Pete Tar]

But he would have been talking about the rifle used in the attack not the shotgun?
The shotgun wasn't used was it?

 

[deirdre]

But he would have been talking about the rifle used in the attack not the shotgun?
The shotgun wasn't used was it?

no the shot gun wasn't used. it never left the car. no shells that would have fit the shotgun were found anywhere either. I doubt the medical examiner knew what kind of long gun was used when he spoke at the conference. he was just describing the wounds and I guess could tell they weren't handgun wounds? he sai something along the lines of 'due to the [severity,size] of the wounds,, the wounds were inflicted by a long gun'

its possible, I guess the xm15 was still in the room when the medical examiner arrived, but I would imagine the police had secured the weapon before letting his staff in. but the medical examiner definitely made reference to the damage of the wounds, so I believe he was only commenting on what he saw in the autopsies. he came straight to the news conference from the autopsies without even sleeping so I doubt he had any contact with (or cared after the night he had) police to discuss weapons found.

I'm just saying, I can understand the confusion of the 'theorists' and others regarding the xm15. I don't know where the 'handguns were used' to kill the children ever came from because I never heard that.

 

[CeruleanBlu]

no shells that would have fit the shotgun were found anywhere either.

There may have been some initial confusion on that though, three types of 12 gauge shells were found inside the school. One on the shooter's person which matched the rounds found with the shotgun in the car, one inside that matched a 2nd type found on the ground out in the parking lot and a third separate type. The mysterious shotgun rounds were tracked down to first responders who had dropped rounds while searching the school grounds.



Sources:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/187058255/Newtown-Report-Sandy-Hood-Elementary-School-photographs

and

http://www.scribd.com/doc/187052802/Sandy-Hook-Final-Report


It was a confusing and chaotic scene for awhile afterwards.

 

[deirdre]

True, Blue.
my confusion was due to back then I didn't realize a rifle and a shotgun were different things. to me a rifle or shotgun are brown things you hunt with. the black things soldiers carry are machine guns or assault weapons and then little things are handguns. I imagine some reporters esp. might have been misusing terms like me.

 

[CeruleanBlu]

I imagine some reporters esp. might have been misusing terms like me.

They are usually the worst when it comes to accurate information when it comes to firearms. I'm afraid that the vast majority of the conspiracies I've seen about the whole Sandy Hook incident were centered around poor media coverage, and a great number of them were in some way related to the firearms used! "Four guns were found" became four handguns... then the whole "long gun" debacle... it was a nightmare.