Debunked: Sandy Hook: The Guns, Assault Rifle, Gun in the Trunk, Handguns

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
[ADMIN: This post contain the most recent information on the guns as of 1//20/2013. It has been BACK DATED to 1/11/2012 11:11:11 to keep it at the top (and also demonstrate back dating internet posts]

The guns at the scene were identified fairly quickly (after the usual media confusion) as an assault rifle, two handguns, and a shotgun left in the car. This was later clarified several times with the models being identified. Questions persisted thanks to the conspiracy theorists, so the police issued this press release stating the precise models of guns, and where they were found.

http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284

Some confusion arose because of video showing the shotgun being recovered from the car. The Izhmash Canta-12 (more correctly called an Izhmash Saiga 12) shotgun looks somewhat similar to an AR15 style gun from a distance (like the overhead helicopter shot):


Compare with:



In this photo you can see the side handle used to eject shells, as you see the policeman doing in the video





Canta vs. Saiga:

Canta and Saiga are the same thing. The name is actually Saiga, in Russin this is written "САЙГА" and pronounced Saiga (in cyrillic С=S, A=A, Й=I, Г=G). The name is stamped САЙГА-12 on the gun when manufactured, and engraved SAIGA-12 for western buyers.



(Saiga-12 photos from http://s571.beta.photobucket.com/user/loftispawn/library/Izhmash Saiga 12 12 inch barrel )

Some theorists claim that the use of a shotgun was identified before the car was opened. They point to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ETkrxfYoQtc#t=1194s

However, the police scanner audio there (19:55) says:
It does not say they HAVE shotguns, or a shotgun, or even a shotgun shell.

Another claim is that the media reported four handguns the day after the shootings. This is obviously someone just misinterpreting "four guns" as "four handguns", and it getting passed up the line. It was corrected the next day.
 
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Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Adam Lanza used a semiautomatic Bushmaster .223 rifle during his rampage.
I am not so sure on that aspect. Have you seen the video of the cop ejecting a shell from the gun in the boot of the car?

This guy seems to know what he is talking about re guns and this is what he says:

http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=312911&Messages=25

Also there seems to be no information about spent cartridge shells and contradictory evidence about shooting outside the school with accounts of shooters from a van and a car shot up whilst driving on the road.

It is all very confusing.

This is the Bushmaster 223 caliber Remington semiautomatic weapon, similar to the one reportedly used by Sandy Hook Elementary School killer Adam Lanza to shoot 20 children and six adults in Newtown, Conn.


See at 1.20 the gun removed from car.



All I can say is, it is weird... as if they wish to stoke conspiracy theories. They state categorically that he used pistols and then it all changes to an assault rifle :confused:
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I am not so sure on that aspect. Have you seen the video of the cop ejecting a shell from the gun in the boot of the car?
Yes. He left the shotgun in the car, he took the XM-15 and two pistols into the school. He shot the kids with the XM-15, and then shot himself with a pistol.

Three guns in the school, one left in the car. Four guns becomes "four handguns" via miscommunications with the eager media wanting to say whatever new information comes along.

Media reports from early on are often wrong. Saying those early media report is somehow the "official story" is just cherry picking. The closest thing to an "official story" would be the Wikipedia page, which basically collates and references the most authoritative accounts of what happened, and should then distill something closest to the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
Note the references. Wikipedia is not just some guys writing what they think. It's a summary of what's in the references.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Yes. He left the shotgun in the car, he took the XM-15 and two pistols into the school. He shot the kids with the XM-15, and then shot himself with a pistol.

Three guns in the school, one left in the car. Four guns becomes "four handguns" via miscommunications with the eager media wanting to say whatever new information comes along.

Note the references. Wikipedia is not just some guys writing what they think. It's a summary of what's in the references.
Yes that clears up a lot of the 'misreporting/confusion'. Thanks
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes that clears up a lot of the 'misreporting/confusion'. Thanks
Just noticed I used AR-15 and XM-15 to refer to the same gun there (edited it in my original), which could add to the confusion. Just wanted to clarify that Bushmaster XM-15 is an AR-15 variant. AR-15 is a general term for a large family of similar weapons. XM-15 is a Bushmaster specific designation for a variety of rifles:
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/xm-15.asp

It does not seem like the police have actually identified the precise model used beyond a ".223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 rifle."
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
A note on the comparison of the Saiga Shotgun v. the Bushmaster AR-15 style rifle. If you notice on the images, the receiver on the AR-15 extends about 3-4" below the forehand grip that covers the barrel, which includes the port to insert the magazine. The bottom of the Saiga receiver lies flush against the forehand grip and the magazine feeds directly into the receiver where it meet the forehand grip. In the video, it is pretty clear that, based on the officers placement on the gun, as he slides the charging handle and clears the chamber, that the forehand grip lies flush against the receiver, rather than having any type of extension below the point where the magazine is inserted into the gun and where the forehand grip meets the receiver. That is more readily seen because the office is clearing the gun, and therefore has more than likely already removed the magazine or the magazine was not in the gun in the first place. Either way, I am sold that the gun in the trunk is not and AR-15 but the Saiga shotgun. Nicely done, I have been doing extensive research looking for answers as all the questions continue to be raised. While I am mournful for the families and horrified by these event, I remain a proponent of gun rights and don't agree with the current agendas of the left against gun control. That being said, I believe unequivocally that people need to educate themselves on the truth and take in all available information before aligning them with either side of the debate. This is the first time I have been convinced of an answer to the the questions that I had. So in the interest of a brevity I abandoned quite some time ago, thank you for the information.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
A note on the comparison of the Saiga Shotgun v. the Bushmaster AR-15 style rifle. If you notice on the images, the receiver on the AR-15 extends about 3-4" below the forehand grip that covers the barrel, which includes the port to insert the magazine. The bottom of the Saiga receiver lies flush against the forehand grip and the magazine feeds directly into the receiver where it meet the forehand grip. In the video, it is pretty clear that, based on the officers placement on the gun, as he slides the charging handle and clears the chamber, that the forehand grip lies flush against the receiver, rather than having any type of extension below the point where the magazine is inserted into the gun and where the forehand grip meets the receiver. That is more readily seen because the office is clearing the gun, and therefore has more than likely already removed the magazine or the magazine was not in the gun in the first place. Either way, I am sold that the gun in the trunk is not and AR-15 but the Saiga shotgun. Nicely done, I have been doing extensive research looking for answers as all the questions continue to be raised. While I am mournful for the families and horrified by these event, I remain a proponent of gun rights and don't agree with the current agendas of the left against gun control. That being said, I believe unequivocally that people need to educate themselves on the truth and take in all available information before aligning them with either side of the debate. This is the first time I have been convinced of an answer to the the questions that I had. So in the interest of a brevity I abandoned quite some time ago, thank you for the information.
Seems to me in teh video of them pulling a "long rifle" from the trunk, it seems to have a firing hand grip very much like the AR family of rifles. I just had to look up this forum again and see the "Shot gun" pictures and those seem to have the firing hand grip built into the stock rather than as a seperate piece. Lets see how the anti-AR people spin this now...

Let me guess, there are saiga shot gun variants with different butt stock options....
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Seems to me in teh video of them pulling a "long rifle" from the trunk, it seems to have a firing hand grip very much like the AR family of rifles. I just had to look up this forum again and see the "Shot gun" pictures and those seem to have the firing hand grip built into the stock rather than as a seperate piece. Lets see how the anti-AR people spin this now...

Let me guess, there are saiga shot gun variants with different butt stock options....
Yes there are:

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga12.shtml
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
very surprising this thread is so short since this was the main 'conspiracy theory'. a few things in your above (old?) Wikipedia quotes is incorrect which you probably know now after reading the report. cant remember if the report mentioned the shotgun was in the front of lanzas car initially. propped against the passenger seat in the front of the car. an officer moved it to the trunk early on, to 'secure the weapon'. That confused a lot of people as well since the national news didn't report that apparently. But it is mentioned in several online articles early 2013.

its possible that 'a shotgun' was reported early on since the shotgun was in plain site until it was moved to the trunk. I know I heard they found a shotgun but cant remember if it was on the news or wordof mouth. it was a long time (it seemed) before Any news of what was in the school came out. and even the next day the medical examiner only said 'a long gun'.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But he would have been talking about the rifle used in the attack not the shotgun?
The shotgun wasn't used was it?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
But he would have been talking about the rifle used in the attack not the shotgun?
The shotgun wasn't used was it?
no the shot gun wasn't used. it never left the car. no shells that would have fit the shotgun were found anywhere either. I doubt the medical examiner knew what kind of long gun was used when he spoke at the conference. he was just describing the wounds and I guess could tell they weren't handgun wounds? he sai something along the lines of 'due to the [severity,size] of the wounds,, the wounds were inflicted by a long gun'

its possible, I guess the xm15 was still in the room when the medical examiner arrived, but I would imagine the police had secured the weapon before letting his staff in. but the medical examiner definitely made reference to the damage of the wounds, so I believe he was only commenting on what he saw in the autopsies. he came straight to the news conference from the autopsies without even sleeping so I doubt he had any contact with (or cared after the night he had) police to discuss weapons found.

I'm just saying, I can understand the confusion of the 'theorists' and others regarding the xm15. I don't know where the 'handguns were used' to kill the children ever came from because I never heard that.
 

CeruleanBlu

Senior Member.
no shells that would have fit the shotgun were found anywhere either.
There may have been some initial confusion on that though, three types of 12 gauge shells were found inside the school. One on the shooter's person which matched the rounds found with the shotgun in the car, one inside that matched a 2nd type found on the ground out in the parking lot and a third separate type. The mysterious shotgun rounds were tracked down to first responders who had dropped rounds while searching the school grounds.



Sources:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/187058255/Newtown-Report-Sandy-Hood-Elementary-School-photographs

and

http://www.scribd.com/doc/187052802/Sandy-Hook-Final-Report


It was a confusing and chaotic scene for awhile afterwards.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
True, Blue.
my confusion was due to back then I didn't realize a rifle and a shotgun were different things. to me a rifle or shotgun are brown things you hunt with. the black things soldiers carry are machine guns or assault weapons and then little things are handguns. I imagine some reporters esp. might have been misusing terms like me.
 

CeruleanBlu

Senior Member.
I imagine some reporters esp. might have been misusing terms like me.
They are usually the worst when it comes to accurate information when it comes to firearms. I'm afraid that the vast majority of the conspiracies I've seen about the whole Sandy Hook incident were centered around poor media coverage, and a great number of them were in some way related to the firearms used! "Four guns were found" became four handguns... then the whole "long gun" debacle... it was a nightmare. :rolleyes:
 
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