Debunked: Sandy Hook Hoax (OP includes quick links )

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Josh Heuer

Active Member
Well, your position is hard to understand, as you previously stated that it was logical to doubt the whole event happened at all because the media misreported certain facts.

So any event that has misreporting in, you consider it wise to immediately doubt whether it happened at all, rather than the more obvious 'they misreported something'.
Again, if you think the event hasn't happened, or even just the details aren't as presented, then there is a conspiracy to present it as if it has - you have a theory about a conspiracy, you are a conspiracy theorist by that action. Why is this an insult?

I didn't say which side I believed. You're also taking that statement out of context; I said BOTH sides sound crazy. Why does that instantly mean I'm on the conspiracy side? And again, even if you believe I'm some conspiracy theorist, I'd still like to point out that doesn't mean I would have to believe it was entirely faked. But as I said multiple times, I believe this event happened, I'm just unsure of certain aspects. Please start debunking and stop trying to find ways to label me a conspiracy theorist.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I didn't say which side I believed. You're also taking that statement out of context; I said BOTH sides sound crazy. Why does that instantly mean I'm on the conspiracy side? And again, even if you believe I'm some conspiracy theorist, I'd still like to point out that doesn't mean I would have to believe it was entirely faked. But as I said multiple times, I believe this event happened, I'm just unsure of certain aspects. Please start debunking and stop trying to find ways to label me a conspiracy theorist.

It either happened more or less as reported with some room for error, or there was a conspiracy to present it as such. I don't see how there is some third option that is not a conspiracy. You seem to think there is a third option but don't think it was a deliberate conspiracy to deceive?
I did include in my description that you may just doubt the details rather than the whole event.

Okay, can you provide a point that hasn't been adequately addressed in this thread that you need examined or clarified?
 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
As for the cameras...you're right. There's no evidence about the cameras; other than the note from the principal that states simply that there will be cameras in place for monitoring people at the door. Nowhere does it say that these cameras record; I was just hoping for some clarity on this situation. It seems I have my answer though; the cameras did not record, and I'm a conspiracy theorist. Heh. Looks like I got more than I bargained for.

No one implied that the cameras did not record. Only that it's possible that there is no recording or that the recording is inconclusive in some way. If this were the case, the reasons, as yet, are unknown.

One possibility?....There is no footage because the security system was not in operation or was malfunctioning.
This would constitute a conspiracy if those facts were deliberately hidden..........I don't believe that the US govt staged this event. the likely, and frankly, feeble reasons attached to Sandy Hook (a limp wristed tweaking of firearm legislation) means that that, and similar "big shows" are most unlikely. However, a much more common form of surreptitious behaviour, in my opinion, is the scramble to cover up almighty **** ups. But then that's just one possibility.

(This Conspiracy Theory Was Brought To You by MB Productions).
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
It either happened more or less as reported with some room for error, or there was a conspiracy to present it as such. I don't see how there is some third option that is not a conspiracy. You seem to think there is a third option but don't think it was a deliberate conspiracy to deceive?
I did include in my description that you may just doubt the details rather than the whole event.

Okay, can you provide a point that hasn't been adequately addressed in this thread that you need examined or clarified?
Of course. It happened more or less as reported.
Again, I never said it didn't happen. I'm having a hard time asking any questions when I keep having to correct you and what you think I'm saying.
Let me clear that up right now.
It happened.
It happened more or less as reported.
It probably happened almost exactly as described on Wikipedia, again, with room for error.

I'm trying to be able to debunk these conspiracies as well as you folks seem to do so well, but when I ask a question, instead of helping me to that answer, I'm called a conspiracy theorist or asked some irrelevant question to throw me off topic for whatever reason.
At this point, my questions on The car at the crime scene have been cleared up. The answer to the security camera question is basically 'yes, there was some sort of security camera device, however, for reasons unknown, it either did not record or it's recording is irrelevant'
I guess I have no more questions.
Hardcore conspiracy theorist out. :p
 

Tazmanian

Account Closed
when I ask a question, instead of helping me to that answer, I'm called a conspiracy theorist or asked some irrelevant question to throw me off topic for whatever reason.

One reason could be to deny. If enough people deny it, it never happened.

The U.S. military, for example, has been working on software to automate the process of creating "sockpuppet" armies to invade social networks and online forums....

http://www.pcworld.com/article/244805/research_paid_posters_poison_the_internet.html
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
REALLY ? What in you link says that?

I see that it is talking about the CHINESE paying folks to talk up a site/place, etc. Not the same thing.

Stop making up tales that fit your beliefs. Instead of looking at FACTS.
 

Tazmanian

Account Closed
See the illustration of the head? Right next to that.


Although the researchers focused their attention on paid posters in China, these techniques are used all over the world. The U.S. military, for example, has been working on software to automate the process of creating "sockpuppet" armies to invade social networks and online forums and gather info on terrorists and terrorist organizations. The researchers also showed how "socialbots" made up of bogus "friends" could be used for mischief on Facebook.
 
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Josh Heuer

Active Member
What's the explanation for Sally Cox and Barbara Halstead being in the first aid supply closet for roughly 4 hours even after multiple sweeps? I can't find a good explanation.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
What's the explanation for Sally Cox and Barbara Halstead being in the first aid supply closet for roughly 4 hours even after multiple sweeps? I can't find a good explanation.

It takes time to sacrifice that many children, clearly they needed more time to finish.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
It takes time to sacrifice that many children, clearly they needed more time to finish.
I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm talking about.
I want to know why there were 4 sweeps through the school but the nurse and secretary were never found. A lot of people seem to use this in their conspiracy theories. I'm just wondering what the explanation for such a mistake is. Wikipedia doesn't really explain this, only that it happened as such.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
That was easy to answer, it took maybe a minute.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/could_see_his_feet_was_frozen_in_ygbEGJD62sWTIMQlZ9CUFP


 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Yes, I read that exact same article explaining how the two ladies ended up together in the closet and spent nearly 4 hours there.
What I'm not following is why there were 4 sweeps and they weren't found. Did the people sweeping just say 'this one's locked, let's move on' and skip that closet? Is that their idea of a thorough sweep?

I'm sure you smart people know why this happened. I just don't understand; I'm inferior. Why did they continuously skip them?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Do you think that the folks had a little more to do than to check EVERY room in the building? Someone did 'jiggle' the door knob. I am sure that counted to someone as 'checking'. Would you have really rather that heavily armed men, OPENED every door? That could have caused major PTS for someone, and worse if it had been a child.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Yes, I read that exact same article explaining how the two ladies ended up together in the closet and spent nearly 4 hours there.
What I'm not following is why there were 4 sweeps and they weren't found. Did the people sweeping just say 'this one's locked, let's move on' and skip that closet? Is that their idea of a thorough sweep?

I'm sure you smart people know why this happened. I just don't understand; I'm inferior. Why did they continuously skip them?

Why does it matter? Are you thinking of suing them for failure to discharge their proper duty or something?
In what narrative does it make the event suspicious? They didn't really exist? They went out to lunch, then came back to hide in the cupboard? How does this fit into the bigger picture as evidence the whole event was staged?

Maybe they were in the cupboard, scared, the security sweep failed to locate them and they were too scared to make their presence known?
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Why does it matter? It doesn't matter to me. But I see this used a lot as an angle of conspiracy, and I'm just wondering what the actual explanation is for why their closet was missed, so I can help explain this to conspiracy theorists.. Apparently it wasn't missed, it just wasn't opened because the door was locked. I'm not sure about protocol when they do these sweeps, but I would imagine, given the situation of having a shooter (or shooters; they didn't know at the time of the sweep how many there were yet), wouldn't they want to be as thorough as possible? What if a shooter was waiting behind a locked door? I'm just trying to understand why they would skip any doors. I assume they skipped over other rooms that were locked as well, would this be a correct assumption?
 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
Do incidents like "locked in a cupboard for four hours" not dispel conspiracy theories rather than suggest them? What purpose do this, the Gene Rosen sideshow, and other "discrepancies" serve in the great false flag scheme? Were I to take part in planning a conspiracy of this nature, I would advise against the inclusion of meaningless subplots that serve only to raise suspicion among the suspicious.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Unforeseen event? Maybe these 2 ladies had no idea what was going on and genuinely feared for their lives?
It still leaves open the question of why such a thorough sweep was done 4 times and they were continuously missed. I'm not pointing towards conspiracy, I'm just curious about this little bit of information, and protocol behind these sweeps. Do they skip locked doors?
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
So, there's no experts here on police sweeps?
Do police simply skip locked doors, as they did with the 2 ladies who stayed in a closet for 4 hours?
Presumably there were other locked doors, there's all sorts of accounts of teachers locking their doors to protect the students.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Is it entirely unreasonable to assume they would just think, 'locked cupboard of office supplies' and move on?
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Is it entirely unreasonable to assume they would just think, 'locked cupboard of office supplies' and move on?

With a possible shooter/shooters on the loose? How is that thorough? There must have been multiple locked doors. Did they simply skip them all?
Or did they just assume 'well this is a storage closet, no shooters would hide in here...'
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well clearly they were incompetent and should be sued? I don't get what your point is.
They probably used their training and intuition and made a snap decision that it wasn't a priority for breaking into. And intuitively it's natural to assume a cupboard has been locked from the outside, not the inside. They had a dead shooter already, they were probably looking for dead bodies more than anything.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Well clearly they were incompetent and should be sued? I don't get what your point is.
They probably used their training and intuition and made a snap decision that it wasn't a priority for breaking into. And intuitively it's natural to assume a cupboard has been locked from the outside, not the inside. They had a dead shooter already, they were probably looking for dead bodies more than anything.
It wasn't a 'snap decision.' They swept 4 times. That's multiple 'snap decisions' and each one they blatantly skipped a closet (not a cupboard as you mentioned).
If it was locked from the outside, why didn't they simply unlock it and open it?
I'm not pointing out incompetence. I'm pointing out that something doesn't add up here. It sounds like the 4-hours-in-the-closet story was just that, a story.
We see the police outside using bolt cutters to remove a lock from a nearby shed. Obviously, a shooter couldn't padlock himself in the shed. Sure, there could be other people locked in, and they had the time to make the 'snap decision' of cutting the lock and going in and checking.

The point is, there's a flaw here. Part of the story that doesn't add up. It goes with all of the eyewitness testimony that doesn't corroborate. Varying amounts of shots, some heard shots, some didn't. Shots were heard at a nearby house, yet some people only heard shots over the intercom. Etc etc
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Eyewitness testimony not corroborating is hardly a new phenomenon even for well-known events.
But, really, if there was an inconsistency in the decision not to break into the cupboard, it still makes me shrug, sorry.
Until someone personally involved comes along to explain it will just be a mystery.
Can you find a description or photo of the cupboard they claim to have occupied?
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Eyewitness testimony not corroborating is hardly a new phenomenon even for well-known events.
But, really, if there was an inconsistency in the decision not to break into the cupboard, it still makes me shrug, sorry.
Until someone personally involved comes along to explain it will just be a mystery.
Can you find a description or photo of the cupboard they claim to have occupied?

Heh, that's a trick question. You and I both know there are absolutely no pictures of inside the school. However, the ladies themselves said it was a closet. It's on Wikipedia as a closet. A first aid storage closet that was obviously big enough to fit 2 people in as well as first aid supplies.
Right about the eyewitness testimony...it's only good testimony if it corroborates with what happened. But of course in this case there's all kinds of different eyewitness accounts, some of which even varies when a single person is interviewed by different news sources. (Mergim bajraliu...heard the shots, neighbor heard shots, no police on scene, ok very few on scene. Saw 2 kids exiting school, saw 3. One was being carried away, 2 carried away, etc. btw who was the bloody girl he saw? And this is just one witness. Of course mistakes are made especially in these chaotic situations, but it comes to a point where it's like ok, really? This many different variations of what happened?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
... but it comes to a point where it's like ok, really? This many different variations of what happened?

yeah sorry, it's still a *shrug* for me.

I didn't actually know there were no pictures of the inside of the school released, wasn't trying to be tricky.
No pictures of the corpses of slain children, I knew that.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Well, if you search the web you find basically 0 images of inside the school. I've found a couple inside a classroom but I can't verify they were even inside Sandy Hook or if so, when they were or what rooms they were in.
Again, we have a story about two ladies staying locked inside a closet for 4 hours with 4 police sweeps avoiding the room, but apparently not other locked rooms.

And yeah, no pictures of slain children.
Not that I want to see that kind of thing. But it's evidence that is being sealed due to the investigation. A rather lengthy investigation where they know the only shooter, all the victims, what happened, and they're obviously not prosecuting anyone. But it will remain sealed as part of the investigation.

You can shrug all you want, but I'm shrugging too at the eyewitness reports. They don't add up. They are the obvious clue that *something* happened that we don't know about.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
There's a lot happened that we don't know about. That is why there is a lengthy investigation 0- they will be trying to map every second of eth shooter's movement, who was shot in which order, where all eth other people were moving around, etc.

And yes the eye witnesses are confused - if you read any account of any complicated situation you will almost invariably find that the eyewitness accounts contradict each other in some way shape or form. that is why they spend ages gathering forensic evidence!
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The 'official story' will use the conclusions of professional forensic investigators.
Their opinion should have value.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
The 'official story' will use the conclusions of professional forensic investigators.
Their opinion should have value.
Heh, not always.

Also, not every official story has conclusions drawn from professional forensic investigators.
 
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Josh Heuer

Active Member
I'm not even sure what you're asking.

You want me to demonstrate why in the case of Sandy Hook conclusions aren't drawn from professional forensic investigators?
Or that conclusions that are drawn aren't from said folk?
Or something else?

I don't really follow and I think we both know what went down that day, as far as the story goes on Wikipedia. I have no reason at this point to believe anything else happened.


I am still waiting for answers about the ladies locked up in a closet for nearly 4 hours. There's got to be a reasonable explanation, I'm just not seeing one. These kinds of account make it easy for people's imaginations to run wild and into conspiracy. I just want to be able to dispel those conspiracies.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Simple they were frightened. The door was locked. None of the police knew that it could be locked from inside since storerooms normally aren't.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I'm not even sure what you're asking.

You want me to demonstrate why in the case of Sandy Hook conclusions aren't drawn from professional forensic investigators?
Or that conclusions that are drawn aren't from said folk?
Or something else?
....
Also, not every official story has conclusions drawn from professional forensic investigators.

Sorry.
'But can you demonstrate in this case why it should not be so' ie, can you show that 'official' conclusions are *not* being drawn from professional forensic investigators.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Sorry.
'But can you demonstrate in this case why it should not be so' ie, can you show that 'official' conclusions are *not* being drawn from professional forensic investigators.

No, why would I do that? I haven't said that was the case here. I did say that might be the case in some official stories.

Also, Cairenm, that's not really explaining anything. There were other locked doors the police sweep got to (since there were reports of children locked up, but they got out when the sweeps were done).
It's fishy. There's no real reason for that situation to have happened.
 
No, why would I do that? I haven't said that was the case here. I did say that might be the case in some official stories.

Also, Cairenm, that's not really explaining anything. There were other locked doors the police sweep got to (since there were reports of children locked up, but they got out when the sweeps were done).
It's fishy. There's no real reason for that situation to have happened.

Josh.....
I do think you bring up a very valid point.
I don't think the failure of this (not checking the closet) however is any type of evidence that the "official story" is wrong.
But it is something that people should review when putting together a report.

My take.
Unless it is dealt with specifically in a report or the people on the scene write books we may never know.

But closets by default will be locked.
Not only to prevent theft but because you have very young children who could get into something that they shouldn't.
Especially a bottle of something.

And the responders would be able to tell this isn't a classroom or an office.
These responders undergo training...... - but - ..... it is nothing like what you find yourself in when you come into
a situation of a school shooting with dozens dead. And in a gruesome way. And children.
And you are working in realtime.

If you look at past mass killings - well the shooter(s) come prepared to die.
And they are either killed by law enforcement on site, commit suicide, or get tackled and held at bay by bystanders.
That is what they are training for.

It would be against any type of psychological profile for them to hide in a closet at the scene and think that would help
their situation. Regardless of whether they had a hostage or not. They could keep 20 hostages in a bigger room.

But you never know. Exceptions can happen. Which is why you do need to check everything.
They played the overwhelming odds and made out.
But still.
You do need to check every nook and cranny.

This was a small relatively rich town.
They did the best they could in the mayhem for those few hours.

But I agree. At the end of the day they should review everything and see whether there are lessons to
to be learned and whether they could have done it better.
Communication Breakdown can be very real.
I experienced it 2 years ago when I was on a chainsaw crew trying to cut a community out of a disastrous tornado.

Unfortunately everything doesn't always run like clockwork.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
Years ago when I was showing dogs, a field next to the show building caught on fire. There was a small parking area between it and the building, with one row of cars parked toward the building. Since there was not a curb the big motor homes had parked facing the field, in fact many of them were partially in the field. There were other cars parked on both the back and front side of the field. I was outside when the fire started and the wind was carrying it toward the building. I headed in so I could get my dogs out and if needed release other dogs from their crates, if the building caught fire. Folks panicked and I saw judges holding the leashes of a dozen dogs. Some folks didn't they grabbed rugs and towels and started beating the fire down. Other folks were shoving the cars and motorhomes away from the field, but a lot more folks were standing and watching in shock.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
So, there's no experts here on police sweeps?
Do police simply skip locked doors, as they did with the 2 ladies who stayed in a closet for 4 hours?
Presumably there were other locked doors, there's all sorts of accounts of teachers locking their doors to protect the students.

Maybe when they found Lanza dead, with the guns, they knew they didn't have to look for the killer any longer and were just checking rooms by looking into them, and not looking in closets?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
They would have most likely been careful with any place a child might have been hidden. Guys in SWAT gear would easily terrify a child that was hiding.
 
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