Debunked: Kaitlin Roig could not fit her 15 students in bathroom

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deirdre

Senior Member.
[BUNK]Claim: Kaitlin Roig, Sandy Hook 1st grade teacher Room 12, could never fit 15 students plus herself in her classroom bathroom. Also they claim you can't get 5 children on a toilet.[/BUNK]


The people making this claim are saying the bathroom was 3'x4'. I couldnt verify this size but figured i'd test it out.
note: My bathroom has an adult size toilet, unlike room 12, and part of my space is taken up by my sink cabinet. There was no sink in the Room 12 bathroom.

I was easily able to fit at least 17 of me without even squishing. I'm small but not as small as a 6 year old. I couldnt find a good shot of me with a 6 year old for size comparison , so below you will see me with a 9 year old - who, of course, is also alot bigger than a 6 year old 1st grader.

Ms. Roig is small as well.

edit add: oh i also took some liberty with my toes in a few shots as my feet are like twice the size of a 6 year old.


smeasure1.PNG

you can probably click this pic for a larger view.

roigsheet.jpg


me with 9 year old for some size comparison:
sizecompare.jpg

and for a rough size comparison of ages
ages.png



file #00091247

Roig stated that she told her kids to get into the bathroom. She had 15 students that day, one was absent. Roig stated that the children initially
placed themselves into the bathroom. When she came in, Roig stated that she put the littlest one on the toilet paper dispenser for a moment and
held her there with one arm as she moved the kids around. Roig stated that she picked up two or three children and placed them behind the door
because she could not close it. At one point, there were 5-6 kids standing on the toilet, all at once, so she could make room, and only one child
remained there the whole time. Roig stated that she stood along the wall near the toilet paper dispenser, across from the door, and she told the
children in front of her to crouch down. Roig stated that she locked the door and left the light on. Prior to closing the door, Roig stated that she
pulled the wheeled bookshelf in front of the door. Roig stated that it was about 6 feet high and 4 1/2 feet wide. Roig clarified tha_t it was light and on
wheels, a child could push it. Roig stated that she had the kids in the bathroom and in place in under a minute
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Ms. Roig with her students.
roig students.png

edit add: thanks @Mike Fl ! apparently they are called restrooms in the report:
All classrooms in the north hallway had a restroom and a closet. The restrooms were uniformly designed, approximately 4 feet 7 inches by 3 feet 6 inches with a solid wood door. The door of each restroom opened inward and away from the toilet. Each restroom door had a knob push button lock on the inside handle and a key lock on the outside handle.33 The conference room did not have a restroom. http://www.ct.gov/csao/lib/csao/Sandy_Hook_Final_Report.pdf
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Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Back in my wild youth we once managed a night out with eight people in a mini-van...
9d91dbf7c182117ac2c377e0c885f588.jpg
and we were 18-19 year olds. Therefore one teacher and 15 kids in a khazi isn't that greater stretch of the imagination.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The restrooms were uniformly designed, approximately 4 feet 7 inches by 3 feet 6 inches
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That works out at slightly over 16 square feet. One can compare that to an elevator.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jMRc3Sy8qakC&pg=PT152&lpg=PT152



So if that's 1.5 square feet per person, and all full size adults (some quite large too), then it's hardly a stretch to get 1 square foot or less for small kids.

Here's 50 adults standing on a king sized bed in New Zealand
http://www.oddee.com/item_98265.aspx


NZ King is 66x80", 37 square feet. About 0.75 square feet per person.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I always think it was a miracle keeping all those kids quiet.
Fear is a pretty good motivater.

They werent perfectly quiet the whole time though. In her interviews she describes the boys telling her not to worry cause they know karate, and stuff like that...children starting to cry. As far as we know he never entered her room.

But yes, the kids were absolutely awesome and followed directions beautifully.

That on the morning of 12-14-1 2, she and her students were having a morning meeting on the classroom floor. It was calm and quiet. Roig clarified that they were sitting in a circle and because the students were calm and quiet, it made it easy to tell them to go hide in the bathroom
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deirdre

Senior Member.
That works out at slightly over 16 square feet
minus whatever a 30" (probably) door open 9 inches would be (1.125 ? feet). She's my size and ran out at one point to look for her phone.
 

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Truth_Seeker

New Member
Here is my only issue with Roig's claim. The bathroom door opens inwards. How could she fit herself and all the kids in there, AND move a bookself on wheels in front of the door?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
How could she fit herself and all the kids in there,
we just showed you how in this thread. and Ms. Roig explained how in her statement (the PDF attaached to the Opening Post above). and i quoted it.

AND move a bookself on wheels in front of the door?
again she explains how in her statement.
You do realize the book case was OUTSIDE the bathroom door, right?

bold mine: (Faughnan PDF attached below)

Tpr. Poach and I entered the classroom and I approached a closed door in the corner which was block with bookshelf.

As Tpr. Poach posted on the door, I moved the bookshelf and ordered the individual(s) out of the closet and
identifYing myself as a State Trooper. After several verbal attempts, !attempted to open the door and observed the
door handle was locked. I asked tall police officer from an unknown town for his badge so that it could be slide under
the door, so that the individual(s) would know we were the police

[....(later in library)]

I told her I would slide a patch under the door, and asked an
unknown police officer for his uniformed patch, but several police radios went off and the woman stated that she
believed me. She then stated that the door was blocked, I unlocked the door, forced the door open and observed the teacher, later identified as [ ]and nineteen other students in the closet. Again we escorted all the
teachers and students out of the school through [ ] classroom door.
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mikehod

New Member
we just showed you how in this thread. and Ms. Roig explained how in her statement (the PDF attaached to the Opening Post above). and i quoted it.


actually it didn't show anything.the door opening inward and the toilet say you could fit 5 kids the 4'7" wayand 3 the 3'6" waythats fifteen with 2 or 3 standing on the toilet and her levitating above somewhere plus you have a door swinging inward.

3'x4' Bathroom experiment completed - Sandy Hook
Recently, we had a huge birthday party for my niece. Since there were so many 4, 5 and 6 year old children there, I decided to try an experiment.
My sister has a 3'x4' bathroom in the guesthouse (with toilet and sink), so i gathered eight 5 year olds, and seven 6 year olds (and myself) to go into the bathroom.
Making it into a game, we successfully fit myself, and ten of the children (starting with the smallest first to make more room) after that it was completely impossible to fit any more without someone standing on someone else.

Two were on the sink, two stood on the toilet. The rest of us were standing on the floor. It was very uncomfortable, and hard to move. There was absolutely no chance of fitting the other five kids (short of having them hover above us, or cling to the wall like spiderman)or close the door
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Recently, we had a huge birthday party for my niece. Since there were so many 4, 5 and 6 year old children there, I decided to try an experiment.
you got pics of that?

the bathroom at sh wasnt 3x4. it was 3.6x4.7

there was no sink in the bathroom.

you must be gianormous if you couldnt fit in the bathroom with those kids.

It was very uncomfortable, and hard to move.
what makes you think they were comfortable and moving? the police could barely move the door open a few inches to get them out once the xtra kids got down from the toilet and dispenser.

I'd like to see pics of your experiment. i originally thought the room was 3x4 and show how i fit 15 of me in easy. and i'm an adult (a small adult but still). so i'm going to need to see your pics to believe you.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
My sister has a 3'x4' bathroom in the guesthouse (with toilet and sink), so i gathered eight 5 year olds, and seven 6 year olds (and myself) to go into the bathroom.
Making it into a game, we successfully fit myself, and ten of the children

3x4 is 12 square feet, and you got one adult plus 10 children, plus a sink.

3'6"x4'7" is 16 square feet, and Roig got one adult plus 15 children (no sink)

So your results seem to exactly match the Roig situation.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And 16 sq ft is 1.5 square meters, which is relevant if we are to compare to density to other real world situations, such as Indian railways:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Suburban_Railway
Over 4,500 passengers are packed into a 9-car rake during peak hours, as against the rated carrying capacity of 1,700.[15] This has resulted in what is known as Super-Dense Crush Load of 14 to 16 standing passengers per square metre of floor space.
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That's 14-16 adults in 1.0 square meter, whereas the restroom had 1.5 square meters.
 

Geoff

New Member
[BUNK]Claim: Kaitlin Roig, Sandy Hook 1st grade teacher Room 12, could never fit 15 students plus herself in her classroom bathroom. Also they claim you can't get 5 children on a toilet.[/BUNK]


The people making this claim are saying the bathroom was 3'x4'. I couldnt verify this size but figured i'd test it out.

edit add: thanks @Mike Fl ! apparently they are called restrooms in the report:
All classrooms in the north hallway had a restroom and a closet. The restrooms were uniformly designed, approximately 4 feet 7 inches by 3 feet 6 inches with a solid wood door. The door of each restroom opened inward and away from the toilet. Each restroom door had a knob push button lock on the inside handle and a key lock on the outside handle.33 The conference room did not have a restroom. http://www.ct.gov/csao/lib/csao/Sandy_Hook_Final_Report.pdf
Content from External Source

"The people making this claim are saying the bathroom was 3'x4'. Nope, the media made that claim.
"There was only the “tiny, tiny” single occupancy children’s bathroom. It was so small, only 3-by-4 feet wide, that Roig-DeBellis had never been in it. Nevertheless, she ordered her pupils in “Now!” When there was no room left, she lifted the 6- and 7-year-old bodies, piling them in."

continuing...

"She managed to fit three children on top of the toilet. One boy was shaking so hard he caused it to flush in a moment when silence was a matter of life and death."
Content from External Source
Sure, 3 kids on top of a toilet seat....I weigh 190 pounds and I can only fit my ass on a toilet seat so how is it possible for 3 6 year old kids to?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...s-horrific-details-new-book-article-1.2384385

[off topic text removed]
 
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Geoff

New Member
"Roig stated that she put the littlest one on the toilet paper dispenser" amazing that she had the ability to so quickly measure the size of all her 6 year old kids to determine who was the littlest....why don't you take a photo of your kid standing on the toilet paper dispenser in your photos??
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
"Roig stated that she put the littlest one on the toilet paper dispenser" amazing that she had the ability to so quickly measure the size of all her 6 year old kids to determine who was the littlest

It sounds like youre coming at this with the idea that the teacher wouldnt know her kids. My teachers knew all of us.. to the point they could look at the back of your head and know who it was. Why is it so hard to believe that a teacher wouldnt just know who the smallest kid was? Teachers, just like people in the military (or even me here at work) know their kids, their squadmates and their teams.. I can tell you at a quick glance who the tallest and shortest people are in my department because I work with them every day. Its not unreasonable or beyond the realms of reality for someone to make that kind of split second decision.

You're arguing from incredulity, not logic or reason.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
telling that you find this so amusing today.



Let's see a photo of what's behind that door?
you are free to search through the thousands of photos in the police investigation report (or to google it like I just did) and find more photos.
pp.png

room-6f.jpg

edit: changed bottom photo width, too much was snipped off to see where the room ends (behind the door)
 
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Geoff

New Member
telling that you find this so amusing today.




you are free to search through the thousands of photos in the police investigation report (or to google it like I just did) and find more photos.
pp.png View attachment 30619

Hey there's the toilet paper dispenser one of the kids was "standing" on, and it's sphere shaped to boot!! [off topic text removed]
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Hey there's the toilet paper dispenser one of the kids was "standing" on, and it's sphere shaped to boot!! [off topic text removed]
file #00091247

Roig stated that she told her kids to get into the bathroom. She had 15 students that day, one was absent. Roig stated that the children initially
placed themselves into the bathroom. When she came in, Roig stated that she put the littlest one on the toilet paper dispenser for a moment and
held her there with one arm
as she moved the kids around

it's not sphere shaped (not that it matters.. kids can balance on balls too). If an adult can stand in a similar space (see OP), why not a 6 year old?
images9ZMMBKGF.jpg
Capture2.JPG

c3bd51f8470b0ab95b4d5a0d58419905--playground-kids-playgrounds.jpg

If you have something meaningful to add to this thread, then do so. Your argument from 'incredulity' will not be tolerated further.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
it's not sphere shaped (not that it matters.. kids can balance on balls too). If an adult can stand in a similar space (see OP), why not a 6 year old?
Not only that, but the 'balancing' six year old had a teacher and 14 other kids packed in behind him. In situations like that its gonna harder to fall than not to.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Hey there's the toilet paper dispenser one of the kids was "standing" on, and it's sphere shaped to boot!! [off topic text removed]
Doesn't look spherical to me. It looks like a standard circular toilet paper holder as found in lots of public bathrooms. This type of thing but a slightly different shape.



I'm pretty sure I could stand on one of those things and I am a 170lb adult. I would try it but I don't know how well it's bolted to the wall and I don't want the office manager on my back. If I was a child and there were lots of other people in the room to hold me up it would be pretty straightforward.
 
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