Debunked: It was not the political goals of Hitler that brought us to war...

derrick06

Active Member
Here I have a quote by Major General J.F. Charles Fuller saying,

" It was not the political goals of Hitler that brought us to war. It was his success in building a new financial system. The roots of this war lie in greed, jealousy, and fear."

I came across this quote when I was debunking a claim that Hitler never died in his bunker in 1945 which is of course false, however I noticed the website I had come across called (justice4germans.com) that had a bias essentially that the Allies were oh so evil, Nazi Germany was basicly innocent and the World Bank instigated everything... Typical conspiracy ultra nationalism Weeeee.

Basically the author used this quote as a concluding argument for his claim and I was wondering what the actual context is for this quote. Is Charles Fuller claiming Hitler had nothing to do with intigating WW2? I thought it was intriguing so any information could help. I'm assuming this quote specifically was by THE Major-General John Frederick Charles Fuller who was a British Army Officer. (1 September 1878 – 10 February 1966) did I mention he invented the spotlight? =P
 

Mackdog

Senior Member.
Here I have a quote by Major General J.F. Charles Fuller saying,

" It was not the political goals of Hitler that brought us to war. It was his success in building a new financial system. The roots of this war lie in greed, jealousy, and fear."

I came across this quote when I was debunking a claim that Hitler never died in his bunker in 1945 which is of course false, however I noticed the website I had come across called (justice4germans.com) that had a bias essentially that the Allies were oh so evil, Nazi Germany was basicly innocent and the World Bank instigated everything... Typical conspiracy ultra nationalism Weeeee.

Basically the author used this quote as a concluding argument for his claim and I was wondering what the actual context is for this quote. Is Charles Fuller claiming Hitler had nothing to do with intigating WW2? I thought it was intriguing so any information could help. I'm assuming this quote specifically was by THE Major-General John Frederick Charles Fuller who was a British Army Officer. (1 September 1878 – 10 February 1966) did I mention he invented the spotlight? =P
Quotes are usually notoriously hard to prove true..you would have to find the original source of where the quote came from, like if it was in a news paper or some type or article for example. Or if he was in front of congress giving a speech ect..

Sites like justice4germans are usually very biased and have a lot of neo nazis on them that like to take everything out of context for the purposes of trying to show everybody that the Jews are somehow responsible for everything bad that happens in the world. So I don't like to take them very seriously.

I even remember reading a few times that General Mcaurthur was quoted as saying, after WW2, that America had fought on the wrong side of the war, and that we should have sided with Hitler instead of Stalin..of course that is just paraphrasing, I do not remember the exact quote. But of course I have never seen the proof that he actually said that, and I would not be surprised if in fact he did say something like that, that it was either taken out of context or he was simply being sarcastic..
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The quote seems to appear much more in German:=
Which Google translates as:
Which is very different from "a new financial system". The claim here is that Germany's economy was doing so well.

The source is cited as being this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-World-War-1939-45/dp/0306805065

Which is in English, so the original might be different again.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Fuller's book seems a little odd, here's the ending, where he talks about "envies, greeds, and fears"
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
This sounds like a 5th year History essay. German expansionism certainly did contribute to WW2 as did Anglo- Franco defence pacts. Also the European war would have been over relatively quickly without the front opening in the Pacific with Japan.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Hitler's "new financial system" had completely screwed the German economy by 1939 - his use of MEFO to finance rearmament was pretty much the same chicanery as the use of "Special Purpose entities" by Enron in the late 1990's and 2000 to keep debt hidden!

And it was all coming crashing down in 1939 when the Reichsbank was suddenly due to repay the first tranche after 5 years. There is an argument that the war was inevitable in order to repay these "loans" from looted capital!
 
Hitler's "new financial system" had completely screwed the German economy by 1939

Exactly right. The German national debt stood at about 40 billion Reichsmarks in 1939 and would have been astronomically higher had Schact not introduced MEFO Bills.

To say the advent of War was not caused by Hitler's political objectives seems to disregard the content of Mein Kampf and his speeches pre-1933. The acquisition of land in the East dominated his writing and speeches, most candidly throughout the mid-1920s.

Just to pluck a few quotes from Ian Kershaw's Hitler (which happens to be sitting beside me!):
Obviously there were other objectives besides the ones mentioned above, but these at least go to show Hitler had objectives that would likely cause the outbreak of war, even prior to becoming Chancellor and prior to 1939. The only people that tend to have a contrarian view are David Irving and the 'Institute for Historical Review', who are well known for their Holocaust denial and Nazi apologism.

the World Bank instigated everything
The World Bank and The World Bank Group were both founded 5 years after the outbreak of war.
 
Last edited:

derrick06

Active Member
Interesting information everyone. So @Mick West would you say the original quote I found was paraphrased and changed? Do you feel the context was more analytical than rather claiming Germany didn't play a role... I mean he obviously did. He invaded Poland! Then ordered the Norwegian campaign soon after!
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The quote is sourced on wikiquotes as this:

So if anyone has the book perhaps they could peruse it for an origin??
A search of the work in an online searchable-but-not-readable site yields no (zero) results for "establish a new economy".

It does give 2 results for "new economy" - pages 79 and 334 ....so you can go right to them & see what's there if you have it.....
 

solrey

Senior Member.
Exactly right. The German national debt stood at about 40 billion Reichsmarks in 1939 and would have been astronomically higher had Schact not introduced MEFO Bills.

To say the advent of War was not caused by Hitler's political objectives seems to disregard the content of Mein Kampf and his speeches pre-1933. The acquisition of land in the East dominated his writing and speeches, most candidly throughout the mid-1920s.

Just to pluck a few quotes from Ian Kershaw's Hitler (which happens to be sitting beside me!):
Obviously there were other objectives besides the ones mentioned above, but these at least go to show Hitler had objectives that would likely cause the outbreak of war, even prior to becoming Chancellor and prior to 1939. The only people that tend to have a contrarian view are David Irving and the 'Institute for Historical Review', who are well known for their Holocaust denial and Nazi apologism.


The World Bank and The World Bank Group were both founded 5 years after the outbreak of war.

Spot on.

Lebensraum, or living space, was a policy advocated by Hitler in Mein Kampf, which included expanding German territory and conquering "inferior" races. I actually read Mein Kampf in HS after I got interested in the history of WWII due to my grandfathers service in the war... diary of a mad-man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
 
I don't doubt Fuller's knowledge of Military tactics, but it seems like his assessment on the role Hitler played in causing war is somewhat ill-researched and is well at odds with most contemporary historians - this may be partly due to the book being published in 1948, so soon after the war.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Interesting interpretation from an historical perspective. I remain fascinated by the 'mind-set' of earlier eras, compared to today.

Added is the layering of various languages, and how they 'translate'...there are so many cultural levels "within" a language, and it complicates the
translation...absent "shared" social context.
 

Hannibal

Member
The quote seems to appear much more in German:=
Which Google translates as:
Which is very different from "a new financial system". The claim here is that Germany's economy was doing so well.

The source is cited as being this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-World-War-1939-45/dp/0306805065

Which is in English, so the original might be different again.

It looks like the german quote is from this book:
https://books.google.at/books?id=yT...lers haben uns in den Krieg gestürzt.&f=false

And since the original quote is in English the German quote is just a (poor) translation. It's poor because it distorts the meaning with wrongly translated words and it's not even proper German. Your translation is pretty good (altough I'd replace teachings with doctrines) and as you can see it's not very accurate.

The German book is very populist and intends to wake up Germany and tell the truth about what's going on in the country blaming the government and the media to distort the truth in order to retain the power. Utter bollocks if you ask me.
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
It seems Fuller's quote is being misinterpreted - many historians argue that the difficulties and humiliations imposed upon Germany in Versailles were responsible for the war - indeed, John Maynard Keynes warned at the time that this would be the inevitable result in 'The Economic Consequences of the Peace' (published in 1919). The argument is that the Treaty created the conditions that enabled a man like Hitler to drum up enough popular support to seize power. So both economic reasons and Nazi ideology caused the war - it was economic realities that allowed Nazi ideology to be in position from which it could bring about war. I see nothing in Fuller's original quote that disagrees with this, but the mangled version makes it sound like Fuller is saying that the Nazi's had no role; and that the 'greed, envy and fear' was that of the Allied powers in 1939, rather than that of the Germans in 1933 or the Allies in 1919, as is insinuated by the original quote.

(Just a brief note about language: Fuller's book is written in a kind of vague, beat-around-the-bush-and-use-as-many-adjectives-and-vague-terms-as-possible style that is common in pre-mid-twentieth century writing. In philosophy of language there is a concept known as 'conversational implicature', which means that when humans communicate, many things are implied by the context of the discussion rather than stated outright. [For example, when someone says, 'How is your mum?' we automatically know whether he is referring to her health, state of mind, financial situation, etc based on what it would be socially acceptable for this particular person to enquire about and what potential issues or challenges he expects your mother may be facing. And when we respond 'she's fine, thank you', he automatically knows what we are referring to as well.] With writing in this style, it may be difficult to ascertain what exactly the writer means to convey if you aren't familiar with the writer and the style, thus allowing ample opportunity for misunderstandings and miscommunication.)
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
concept known as 'conversational implicature',
this is an excellant place and oppurtunity to put in a quote (or quotes) from external source(s) and a source link. Educating is important. This is interesting input.

In other words: show me your evidence, dont just 'say stuff'. ;)

We all get lazy with this but it is a good habit to form when one is on-topic, as it adds knowledge to the thread topics.
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
this is an excellant place and oppurtunity to put in a quote (or quotes) from external source(s) and a source link. Educating is important. This is interesting input.

In other words: show me your evidence, dont just 'say stuff'. ;)

We all get lazy with this but it is a good habit to form when one is on-topic, as it adds knowledge to the thread topics.
It's a bit OT, and Paul Grice (the philosopher who developed the idea and coined the phrase) was very prone to rambling on and never (to my knowledge) wrote/delivered a clear and concise formulation of the concept. If you're interested, however, you can read a transcript of his lecture 'logic and conversation' at

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ls/studypacks/Grice-Logic.pdf

He essentially proposes the idea in the first few pages, the rest is elaboration and refinement.

Edit - Many thanks to the moderator who fixed the link.
 
Last edited:

Pigeonkak

Member
Although I sense Fuller is attempting to get all existential on the subject of war and its roots, he has a point. But not the point a hyper-nationalist conspiracy theorist interprets.

From Hitler's philosophic beliefs in Mein Kampf, come his broad political ideals. From those ideals (once he snatched power) come his specific economic policies. Those economic policies, being extreme and unsustainable, required Lebensraum to secure resources beyond Germany's borders. A micro example of this political course occurred in the retaking of the Rhineland. For a sustainable economic policy, that may have been enough, but Hitler's "new economy" was reaching for the stars and hinged on further expansion. His "new economy" was pretty much based on "envy, greed and fear".

The West would have gone to war with Germany even if his overall strategy didn't include mass extermination and enslavement of Untermensch.
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
Regarding the implied claim that Hitler's economic policies were the envy of the world, Harvard economic historian Jeffrey Frieden gives a more nuanced view in 'Global Capitalism: It's Rise and Fall in the Twentieth Century' (p. 213-215):

He cites 'Overy 1982 (pp 34 & 60); Radice 1986 (pp 31); and Hauner 1985 (pp 83)' as his sources.
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
The West would have gone to war with Germany even if his overall strategy didn't include mass extermination and enslavement of Untermensch.
I don't want to be a grammar Nazi, but the plural term is 'untermenschen'. As in, 'Erblicken Sie, das Untermensch! Ich stehe immer unter Ihnen, aber unter mir nichts ist! Jeszt, erkläre Ich Krieg gegen alle Frieden und Glück!' (Trust me, it's hilarious if you recognize the quote.)
 

Pigeonkak

Member
I don't want to be a grammar Nazi, but the plural term is 'untermenschen'. As in, 'Erblicken Sie, das Untermensch! Ich stehe immer unter Ihnen, aber unter mir nichts ist! Jeszt, erkläre Ich Krieg gegen alle Frieden und Glück!' (Trust me, it's hilarious if you recognize the quote.)

Thanks for the copy edit :) Unfortunately the quote goes over my head.

Would it be correct with 'Der untermensch' in the same use as 'the Jew/west/infidel', or does it have to be 'Untermenschen' for use as a plural?
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
Thanks for the copy edit :) Unfortunately the quote goes over my head.

Would it be correct with 'Der untermensch' in the same use as 'the Jew/west/infidel', or does it have to be 'Untermenschen' for use as a plural?
'Das Untermensch' (gender neutral) means 'the subhuman', so it certainly can, though it would sound a bit awkward in your above usage.

My quote was punning on the literal translation of 'Unter-Mensch' as 'under-person', and was the 'behold the underperson' speech from the end of the family movie 'The Incredibles'.
 

Strawman

Senior Member.
Just one little correction: Untermensch is not gender neutral, it's masculine: der Untermensch, and plural: die Untermenschen. Compare for: der Mensch. Apparently, Germans consider typical human beings (Menschen) to be male. But then again, the English word for Mensch is man.

For all your German grammar nazi needs, visit http://www.duden.de
 
Last edited:

Strawman

Senior Member.
Would it be correct with 'Der untermensch' in the same use as 'the Jew/west/infidel', or does it have to be 'Untermenschen' for use as a plural?

Yes, you would use "der Untermensch" when talking about the abstract (yet personified) concept, just as in your examples "the Jew", "the American". You would use "die Untermenschen" to speak of a more concrete group of people you want to point out as being "untermenschlich." Similarly, "the Jew (as such)" is most often used as an antisemitic, essentialising concept, while "the Jews" are a concrete group of people belonging to the Jewish faith/ethnicity.
 

Santa'sSickRibs

Senior Member
Just one little correction: Untermensch is not gender neutral, it's masculine: der Untermensch, and plural: die Untermenschen. Compare for: der Mensch. Apparently, Germans consider typical human beings (Menschen) to be male. But then again, the English word for Mensch is man.

For all your German grammar nazi needs, visit http://www.duden.de
It would seem that this grammar nazi has been out-grammar-nazied.
 

Pigeonkak

Member
We have to goose step much faster to keep up with Strawman. :p "SCHNELL!"

However, our impromptu German lesson really underscores how one can create very different language meanings with conversational but imperfect translations from one language to another.

This may be what happened with Fullers quote - translated imperfectly for a German readership, misinterpreted by them, then translated imperfectly again back into English and further misinterpreted. Multilingual broken telephone, so to speak.
 
Thread starter Related Articles Forum Replies Date
Oystein Debunked: Gibraltar cancels Christmas Coronavirus COVID-19 5
Mythic Suns [Debunked] Viral internet meme indirectly claiming that Greenland has already fully melted. Science and Pseudoscience 6
T AiG Debunked: Fossils Fail to Find Major Transition From Dinosaurs to Birds Science and Pseudoscience 10
Rory Debunked: UK undertaker's claim that Covid vaccine is responsible for spike in deaths Coronavirus COVID-19 7
Marc Powell Debunked: 9/11 truth experts are knowledgeable professionals and their judgments are to be trusted 9/11 195
Marc Powell Debunked: Explosions preparatory to demolition of the WTC North Tower are visible as Flight 175 crashes into the South Tower 9/11 7
Mick West Debunked: Pfizer Developing a Twice-Per-Day COVID Pill, Taken Alongside Vaccines Coronavirus COVID-19 0
Marc Powell Debunked: Demolition “squib” is visible at top of WTC North Tower before Flight 11 crash 9/11 67
Marc Powell Debunked: Construction worker Philip Morelli experienced an explosion in the sub-basement of the North Tower 9/11 0
Marc Powell Debunked: ABC News correspondent George Stephanopoulos reported an explosion in the subway 9/11 1
Marc Powell Debunked: Debris from twin towers was projected upward by explosives 9/11 13
Marc Powell Debunked: Government officials revealed having foreknowledge of Building 7’s collapse 9/11 58
Marc Powell Debunked: NIST computer simulation of Building 7 collapse is inaccurate 9/11 22
Marc Powell Debunked: FEMA reported finding evidence that steel had melted. 9/11 47
Marc Powell Debunked: VP Dick Cheney ordered a standdown of jet fighters on 9/11 9/11 16
Oystein Debunked: Claim that Bobby McIlvaine's injuries ("lacerations") are best explained as result of glass shards and debris from bombs 9/11 22
Marc Powell Debunked: World Trade Center should not have collapsed due to 9/11 fires 9/11 3
Marc Powell Debunked: Firefighter reports of secondary explosions 9/11 3
Marc Powell Debunked: Steel was hurled hundreds of feet by explosives 9/11 4
Marc Powell Debunked: Demolition Explosion Before Collapse of South Tower 9/11 8
Marc Powell Debunked: Explosion in South Tower Lobby 9/11 7
Marc Powell Debunked: Mysterious Explosion Before the Flight 11 Crash 9/11 48
J.d.K Debunked: Marx: "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions must give way... They must perish in the revolutionary Holocaust" Quotes Debunked 0
dimebag2 Poll : Which DOD Navy video do you consider debunked ? UFO Videos and Reports from the US Navy 74
Mick West Debunked: Diving Triangle UFO Photos from Reddit [Fake] UFOs and Aliens 37
Theferäl [Debunked] Object Seen From Airplane Above Canberra: 04 Apr 2012 Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 5
TEEJ Debunked: Claim that Joe Biden's hand passes through microphone during White House press gaggle, 16th March 2021 Election 2020 9
bird_up Debunked: "Interdimensional being" caught on CCTV in Neza, Mexico Ghosts, Monsters, and the Paranormal 6
M Debunked: Atmospheric pressure on Mars is 9 PSI, not 0.09 PSI as claimed by NASA Science and Pseudoscience 76
Patrick Gonzalez Debunked: missing cable on Perseverance landing footage proves it is fake. General Discussion 3
TEEJ Debunked: Biden's Oval Office "Coming Apart at the Seams" [It's a Door] Election 2020 19
derrick06 Debunked: UFO over California Highway (TMZ) UFOs and Aliens 1
P Debunked: 7 Alleged photos of aliens UFOs and Aliens 9
Mick West Debunked: Biden signing "Blank" Executive Orders Election 2020 5
Mick West Debunked: Biden in "Fake" Oval Office Election 2020 27
P Debunked: UN hidden camera: the first UFO contact happened [Deep Fake] UFOs and Aliens 3
Mick West Debunked: 94% of Fulton County Ballots Manually Adjudicated [It's a Process all Batches go Through] Election 2020 0
Mick West Debunked: "Missile Strike" caused Nashville Explosion General Discussion 3
Mick West Debunked: Nashville Explosion was "Across the Street" from the RV General Discussion 0
Mick West Debunked: "Error rate of 68.5% Allowable is .0008%" [Neither is True] Election 2020 4
Mick West Debunked: Claim that the Electoral College Count On Jan 6 will Change the Election Election 2020 136
Rory Debunked: Einstein wrote "blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" Quotes Debunked 12
Mick West Debunked: Navid Keshavarz-Nia's Claims of "A Sudden Rise in Slope" as Election Fraud Evidence Election 2020 5
Mick West Debunked: Trump's Claim of "1,126,940 votes created out of thin air" in PA Election 2020 9
Mick West Debunked: Crowder's "Fraud Week" Title Graphic (and Why it Matters) Election 2020 1
JFDee Debunked: Democratic senators complained about 'vote switching' by Dominion voting machines in 2019 Election 2020 2
Mendel Debunked: The Democrats are trying to take away freedom of religion Election 2020 6
H Debunked: Dr. Shiva's Scatterplot Analysis of Michigan Precincts Election 2020 43
Mick West Debunked: Suspicious "Biden Only" Ballots in Georgia Election 2020 3
Mick West Debunked: "Nancy Pelosi's long time Chief of Staff is a key executive at Dominion Voting" Election 2020 0
Related Articles


















































Related Articles

Top