Debunked: Islamic State (ISIS) orders female circumcision (FGM, Female Genital Mutilation)

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Multiple news outlets are repeating this story, originally from Reuters

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434
The story seems to be just based on this Tweet:

However, it seems to just be a repeat of an older story, from 2013 in Syria
http://justpaste.it/fatwa_debunked

With the "Fatwa" as published in Syria:

Multiple reporters on the ground also describe the story as fake:


So it appear like this is simply old anti-ISIS Syrian propaganda. ISIS themselves have denied it.

See also:
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014...t-ordering-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq/
 
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David

Member
Media in the Netherlands and Belgium also report this story, and also only the claim of Jacqueline Badcock. [...]
 
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Jason

Senior Member
So it appear like this is simply old anti-ISIS Syrian propaganda. ISIS themselves have denied it.
Does anyone know who in the UN or why the UN would issue such a claim? It seems like this originated in the UN by all accounts, so what is their reasoning for issuing such a statement which would clearly scare Iraqi women. It would however get the world more involved with what's going on in Northern Iraq with ISIS pushing forward. Could this have been their objective, and it seems that ISIS is targeting Christians and forcing them out of newly gained territories..
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Does anyone know who in the UN or why the UN would issue such a claim? It seems like this originated in the UN by all accounts, so what is their reasoning for issuing such a statement which is would clearly scare Iraqi women. It would however get the world more involved with what's going on in Northern Iraq with ISIS pushing forward. Could this have been their objective, and it seems that ISIS is targeting Christians and forcing them out of new gained territories..
I think it's just a mistake on the part of the UN coordinator, Jacquelin Badcock:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...FT1I020140724?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews
But the "reports" just seem to be the Tweet.

(Badcock is is PhD in Biochemistry, not a Medical Doctor)
 

Jason

Senior Member
I was reading up on FGM because I didn't really understand it well. The W.H.O. (World Health Organization) defines FGM into four types;
http://themalaysianinsider.com/features/article/fgm-its-happens-in-malaysia-too

In the article they go onto report the rise in FGM in Malaysia due to the influx of Muslims entering their country and there was a paper that also states that Malaysia has been included in the book “Cutting the Rose” (1994) and in “The Hosken Report” (1993) as one of the countries which practises FGM. The latter notes the dearth of local materials on the subject but provides a glimpse into the situation in Malaysia, based on anecdotal reports and a study by Roziah Omar, a medical anthropologist.




I was surprised to learn that many women in the studies supported FGM, and don't see it as mutilation. Instead it's like a right of passage, similarly to what boys go through.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I think it's just a mistake on the part of the UN coordinator, Jacquelin Badcock:
The BBC is acknowledging doubts on the claim now...:


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Just bein' funny here....on a serious discussion.

I think that female genital "circumcision" is FAR different that what many males (like myself) who have had our penis circumsised. (Or, is it "circumsized"?) Google spell-check is not sure.

AGAIN....circumcision on the male penis is VERY, VERY different from a female "circumcision" (as I understand the procedure).

A male penis in a Human has a "covering" (to use a term) that is a layer of skin, and this layer of skin protects the sensitive glans...or "head" of the penis. The glans is where much of the sexual arousal is felt, from penis to the brain.

Is this too basic?

As far as I understand, this MUTILATION of a woman's sexual organ is a CRIME because....it is the same as cutting off a man's penis....basically.

Am I correct? Am I wrong??

Please let me know.

(Adding....I have NO VESTED INTEREST in a woman's vagina....never have, never will....{except I guess, I was born....vaginal birth....but, can't remember that experience....I was VERY young ;)} so please forgive my ignorance......)
 

vooke

Active Member
Somewhere in Kenya.

That video gives you an idea of what FGM is all about. quite scary and a tad insensitive making fun of this barbaric practice. The girls are helpless so UN caution is understandable
 

David

Member
Just bein' funny here....on a serious discussion.

I think that female genital "circumcision" is FAR different that what many males (like myself) who have had our penis circumsised. (Or, is it "circumsized"?) Google spell-check is not sure.

AGAIN....circumcision on the male penis is VERY, VERY different from a female "circumcision" (as I understand the procedure).

A male penis in a Human has a "covering" (to use a term) that is a layer of skin, and this layer of skin protects the sensitive glans...or "head" of the penis. The glans is where much of the sexual arousal is felt, from penis to the brain.
Edit: I won't post pictures as evidence, don't worry people.
Is this too basic?

As far as I understand, this MUTILATION of a woman's sexual organ is a CRIME because....it is the same as cutting off a man's penis....basically.

Am I correct? Am I wrong??

Please let me know.

(Adding....I have NO VESTED INTEREST in a woman's vagina....never have, never will....{except I guess, I was born....vaginal birth....but, can't remember that experience....I was VERY young ;)} so please forgive my ignorance......)
Well I think a woman should never be circumcised, I think it's a crime too, can't think of a good reason to do it.
I guess it's only done to take away the pleasure. For a man only the procedure sucks after that it still works like it should, and it's also cleaner.
I had my penis circumcised too but not for religious reasons, I always say because my penis was too big for the skin. :)
 
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David

Member
Somewhere in Kenya.

That video gives you an idea of what FGM is all about. quite scary and a tad insensitive making fun of this barbaric practice. The girls are helpless so UN caution is understandable
Sorry for making jokes in this thread. I've never seen how it works, but that's disgusting.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Well I think a woman should never be circumcised, I think it's a crime too, can't think of a good reason to do it.
Did you read the article I posted above? For us westerners it seems outrageous and as if its a crime, and if a group of people were forcing women to have FGM, then it would be a crime, but many women in the muslim world "elect" to have the procedure done. It's not in the kuran, it's more traditional than religious in that regard. Look through post#5. I wasn't sure either @WeedWhacker, thats why I looked it up

And surprisingly, 100% of the women who had the procedure done state that it enhanced their husbands pleasure. How, I have no idea how that could or would be possible, but I think it goes back to how women are treated in that part of the world. Perhaps women think it's better because Men want them to have that procedure. Men in that part of the world are insecure with women, and I think this type of procedure ensures them that their wife won't fool around behind their back perhaps.
 

David

Member
Did you read the article I posted above? For us westerners it seems outrageous and as if its a crime, and if a group of people were forcing women to have FGM, then it would be a crime, but many women in the muslim world "elect" to have the procedure done. It's not in the kuran, it's more traditional than religious in that regard. Look through post#5. I wasn't sure either @WeedWhacker, thats why I looked it up

And surprisingly, 100% of the women who had the procedure done state that it enhanced their husbands pleasure. How, I have no idea how that could or would be possible, but I think it goes back to how women are treated in that part of the world. Perhaps women think it's better because Men want them to have that procedure. Men in that part of the world are insecure with women, and I think this type of procedure ensures them that their wife won't fool around behind their back perhaps.
I did see that, but I see no good reasons in that list. You say women elect to have the procedure done.
But I heard a lot about it from Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
She says women (girls) choose to have the procedure done because otherwise they will be called an infidel or the filthy one, the kid nobody wants to play with. I think that's mental abuse and shouldn't be seen as normal.

 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But it still happens, it being abhorrent doesn't stop it being rationalised by some.

90% agree it reduces their sex drive, but it enhances the husbands pleasure?
So apparently sexual response in woman is seen as turn off or threat to male sexuality; that is so sad.

Amazing when you consider that some classic works of erotica came from the arabic/islamic world - The Perfumed Garden and One Thousand and One Nights.

It seems it may have it's modern (African) roots in the slave trade, but the western world also practiced it briefly.
 

vooke

Active Member
Such practices can't survive 2 generations if they were optional.
Men shun 'uncut' women
Marriage is worshiped so the 'uncut' women almost always end up single; the are ostracized. Point is women in such societies are under IMMENSE pressure to go through it.

It is hard to see how removing nerve endings can add more to their sex lives. That's a myth used to perpetuate the vice.The scars at times can cause child-birth difficulties such as fistula

And sometimes you have excessive bleeding and deaths not to mention transmission of infections

All this may explain UN's concern but I feel they should have done more to check the sensational claims before speaking. This gives the bad guys and their sympathizes unnecessary propaganda fodder not to mention tainting UN's perceptions in the region
 

Jason

Senior Member
I did see that, but I see no good reasons in that list. You say women elect to have the procedure done.
But I heard a lot about it from Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
She says women (girls) choose to have the procedure done because otherwise they will be called an infidel or the filthy one, the kid nobody wants to play with. I think that's mental abuse and shouldn't be seen as normal.

I don't like it or agree with it, I was just trying to give another perspective from the women that actually have the procedure.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The text you quoted says
“Irrespective of age and the education level, majority responded that FGM did not reduce their sexual desires,” the women said
but the graphic says 90% said it reduces their sex drive.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
FGM is a major issue in the UK and EU and the UK has had a specific law addressing FGM for over a decade. Anyone that works with kids in areas with high ethnic populations will have at least basic awareness training. Although I never directly dealt with children I received training to identify possible abuse that may be mentioned by clients. A figure of 23,000 is quoted for children at risk in the UK. This is a useful link
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/reso...thnic/female-genital-mutilation_wda96841.html

Thankfully prosecutions are now coming through the system but like with ritual abuse getting into closed communities makes it hard to find perpetrators.

A link to a recent prosecution
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26681364
 

David

Member
I don't like it or agree with it, I was just trying to give another perspective from the women that actually have the procedure.
I didn't think that you agree with it or like it. But FGM is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15.
And i doubt that those girls think about pleasing a future husband at that age. I even doubt that they have a choice.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I didn't think that you agree with it or like it. But FGM is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15.
And i doubt that those girls think about pleasing a future husband at that age. I even doubt that they have a choice.
Agreed. We found artwork in a tomb of Egypt which depicts the oldest evidence for circumcision dating to around 2400BC. Most people think Semites started circumcision, but to the contrary they think it was actually the Egyptians. In the Genesis however, Abraham was told to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh. The origins of circumcision for both man and women date back quite aways, and when westerners learned of this tradition those who were circumcised were outcast and often were embarrassed to shed their clothes in front of people, like the Jewish people with the Germans during the Holocaust.

So all I'm saying is, sure we look down upon it, and think its disgusting and it ruins women, but to other cultures they don't see it the same way. Now everyone, or most people in the developed world get circumcized a day after they are born because we know it has medicinal benefits. It's accepted in most of the world these days. So who knows, maybe FGM will become more accepted down the road even though there aren't any clear medicinal reasons for the procedure. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about this, but forcing women to get the procedure is unlawful and should be stopped when possible.
 

Jason

Senior Member
The text you quoted says
“Irrespective of age and the education level, majority responded that FGM did not reduce their sexual desires,” the women said
but the graphic says 90% said it reduces their sex drive.
Sex drive and sexual desire are 2 different things, I think. Maybe @deirdre can help us out here, but when it comes to desire, to me that means wanting to be with someone without getting all (you know what), but sex drive relates to being "turned on". I think
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Now everyone, or most people in the developed world get circumcized a day after they are born because we know it has medicinal benefits.
Highly debatable on the 'medicinal' (sic?) benefits (and certainly no benefits over uncircumcised men willing to practice basic hygiene), but you mean most *males*.
I'm not aware it's a common western medical practice for female newborns?

Interesting though how there has been a common view expressed by (american) women that an uncircumcised penis is gross.
(or at least that has been the perception in the past, judging by the amount of times the question has appeared on yahoo answers)
 

Jason

Senior Member
Highly debatable on the 'medicinal' (sic?) benefits (and certainly no benefits over uncircumcised men willing to practice basic hygiene), but you mean most *males*.
I'm not aware it's a common western medical practice for female newborns?

Interesting though how there has been a common view expressed by women that an uncircumcised penis is gross.
Yes, males. Thanks Pete. I rushed it and on my iPhone nonetheless.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Interesting though how there has been a common view expressed by women that an uncircumcised penis is gross.
Totally agree with you on this, and I wonder how that's changed over the years. When did circumcision become the norm and accepted preference for women's view of the male "penis" (I'm 38 and I still feel uncomfortable typing or saying that word, is that crazy).
 

Joe

Senior Member
So we are to believe what ISIS and Thinkprogress says ?
What are the odds they do that to their women ? Id say abput 99% http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul
 

Joe

Senior Member
Wow we went from female mutilation to male circumcision ? :eek: Talk about Off Topic ?
 

Jason

Senior Member
So we are to believe what ISIS and Thinkprogress says ?
What are the odds they do that to their women ? Id say abput 99% http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul
I brought this up earlier, and I think this is probably why the FGM story circulated. They are trying to get the world's attention right now, however possible. It's disgusting what they are doing to Christians, and I don't know why that isn't a HUGE story in the media.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Wow we went from female mutilation to male circumcision ? :eek: Talk about Off Topic ?
We were discussing the history of FGM, which involves circumcision for females... Trying to reference how male circumcision was considered digusting and outlandish back in the day but how it's accepted now.
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
Trying to reference how male circumcision was considered digusting and outlandish back in the day but how it's accepted now
With the exception of the US, male circumcision is not the norm in the west:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#Between_20_and_80.25_2

I don't see male circumcision as having grown in acceptance. The opposite in fact seems to be the case over here as the risks outweigh the rewards:
It seems the same is true further afield:
That said, male circumcision is a poor analog for FGM, which is more akin to having ones member severed in two. Hopefully all are dying practices.
 

Joe

Senior Member
What part of

is unclear to you?

But posting an unrelated article about Christian persecution isn't?
Its ISIS ( on Topic ) proving they believe in strict Islamic Law and are quite capable of doing exactly what is supposedly debunked ? Who interviewed ISIS in the Media and the Females of Iraq ?
 

Jason

Senior Member
With the exception of the US, male circumcision is not the norm in the west:
Wow, I never would've expected that to be honest with you and perhaps my view is misguided because I live in the US. Honestly, I can't believe the US is just 20-80%, I would've thought it was much higher like close to 90% or 95% with the way paternity wards are run in the US.

I can't believe England and Europe are so low. Nice job Johnny.
 

Jason

Senior Member
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434


 

Jason

Senior Member
It seems Ms. Badcock is working with the Christian minority as well, and due to the fact that only 20 families remain in Mosul she felt compelled to tweet that FATWA about FGM to get the west involved and the media. And to her credit, it's worked

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Wow, I never would've expected that to be honest with you and perhaps my view is misguided because I live in the US. Honestly, I can't believe the US is just 20-80%, I would've thought it was much higher like close to 90% or 95% with the way paternity wards are run in the US.

I can't believe England and Europe are so low. Nice job Johnny.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...u-dot-s-dot-drops-as-societal-attitudes-waver
Estimates vary, and it varies with region

http://forward.com/articles/161642/circumcision-rates-vary-widely-in-us/?p=all
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
I can't believe the US is just 20-80%, I would've thought it was much higher like close to 90% or 95%
It used to be around that high but enthusiasm has waned over time
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Its ISIS ( on Topic ) proving they believe in strict Islamic Law and are quite capable of doing exactly what is supposedly debunked ?
That wasn't the thread topic, it was a very specific claim being made that was debunked.
ISIS being unpleasant extremists is another topic, but probably not really one many people here disagree with.
 
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