Debunked: Government Stockpiling Unusual Amounts of Ammo [by Tom Coburn's GAO Report]

[Mick West]

The final nail in the coffin of the already widely debunked theory that the government (specifically the Department of Homeland Security) is stockpiling unusually large amounts of ammo (presumably to prepare for some great civil unrest) comes in the form of a GAO report requested by Senator Tom Coburn and others, released today

The bottom line:

• The DHS makes ammunition purchases aimed at minimizing cost
• The ammo is used almost entirely in training, at an average rate of 110 Million rounds a year
• The large figures quoted are the upper limits for open ended multi-year contracts
• Actual purchases of physical ammo have declined, not increased

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...-dhs-ammunition-purchases-declined-since-2009 (http://archive.is/fktwx)

Feb 12 2014
New GAO Report Finds DHS Ammunition Purchases Declined Since 2009^
(WASHINGTON, D.C.) – U.S. Senator Tom Coburn, M.D. (R-OK), ranking member of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, today highlighted a new report^ from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) that examines ammunition procurement practices at the Department of Homeland Security. The report found that since 2009, ammunition purchases at the department have declined. DHS currently has more than 70,000 firearm-carrying personnel.

“Today’s GAO report provides much-needed oversight into DHS’s ammunition procurement practices,” Dr. Coburn said. “Specifically, the GAO looked at DHS’s history of ammunition purchases and found that purchases have declined considerably since 2009. The GAO also highlighted a number of positive safeguards DHS uses in its procurement practices such as strategic sourcing in order to secure the lowest prices for ammo. I am pleased DHS has worked in good faith, and in a transparent manner, with both myself and the GAO. I will continue to conduct rigorous oversight of DHS programs and will specifically work with Congress and the GAO to examine how duplicative federal police forces cause excess and waste across the federal government.”

Dr. Coburn’s previous oversight work on DHS ammunition purchases can be found here^.

House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Michael McCaul and House Subcommittee on Oversight and Management Efficiency Chairman Jeff Duncan were lead requestors on the report.

Findings include:

• Overall, the GAO found that DHS ammunition purchases have declined since 2009 as the chart illustrates below:
• From fiscal years 2008 through 2013, DHS purchased an average of 109 million rounds of ammunition for training, qualification, and operational needs. This 6 year period equates to an average of 1,200 rounds of ammunition purchased per firearm-carrying officer per year.
• According to DHS contract data, as of October 2013, 29 ammunition contracts existed which have a remaining balance of around 704 million rounds. These contracts have a contract dollar ceiling of around $285 million.
• In August 2012, DHS required components to use strategic sourcing contract vehicles for procurements, which include ammunition. DHS officials believe that the strategic sourcing process for ammunition has saved an estimated $2 million since 2008.

Content from External Source

The report:
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-119 (http://archive.is/r88Jd)

What GAO Found
The Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) annual ammunition purchases have declined since fiscal year 2009 and are comparable in number to the Department of Justice's (DOJ) ammunition purchases. In fiscal year 2013, DHS purchased 84 million rounds of ammunition, which is less than DHS's ammunition purchases over the past 5 fiscal years, as shown in the figure below. DHS component officials said the decline in ammunition purchases in fiscal year 2013 was primarily a result of budget constraints, which meant reducing the number of training classes, and drawing on their ammunition inventories. From fiscal years 2008 through 2013, DHS purchased an average of 109 million rounds of ammunition for training, qualification, and operational needs, according to DHS data. DHS's ammunition purchases over the 6-year period equates to an average of 1,200 rounds purchased per firearm-carrying agent or officer per year. Over the past 3 fiscal years (2011-2013), DHS purchased an average of 1,000 rounds per firearm-carrying agent or officer and selected DOJ components purchased 1,300 rounds per firearm-carrying agent or officer.

DHS ammunition purchases are driven primarily by firearm training and qualification requirements. Most DHS firearm-carrying personnel are required to qualify four times per year, though requirements vary by component, as do the number of rounds of ammunition typically used for training and qualification. DHS components also reported considering other factors when making ammunition purchase decisions, such as changes in firearms, usage rates, and ammunition inventories. DHS components maintain inventories of ammunition to help ensure they have sufficient ammunition for the training and operational needs of their officers, as there can be months-long delays between placing an order for ammunition and receiving it. As of October 2013, DHS estimates it had approximately 159 million rounds in inventory, enough to last about 22 months to meet the training and operational needs of its firearm-carrying personnel. Ammunition inventory data provided by DOJ components indicated that inventory ranged from about 13 months' worth to about 20 months' worth.

Why GAO Did This Study
DHS and its components have homeland security and law enforcement missions that require agents and officers to carry and be proficient in the use of firearms. DHS has more than 70,000 firearm-carrying personnel—the most of any department. DOJ has the next largest with approximately 69,000 firearm-carrying personnel. GAO was asked to examine DHS's ammunition purchases and management of ammunition and firearms. This report addresses trends in DHS's ammunition purchases since fiscal year 2008, how DHS's purchases compare with DOJ's, and what factors affect DHS's purchase decisions. GAO analyzed data from six DHS and three DOJ components that have law enforcement missions, require agents and officers to carry firearms, and purchase ammunition themselves or through their respective departments. Specifically, GAO analyzed data on ammunition purchases, usage, costs, and inventories, among other things, for fiscal years 2008 through 2013 for DHS, and for fiscal years 2011 through 2013 for DOJ. GAO assessed the reliability of these data and found them sufficiently reliable. Data on DOJ ammunition purchases prior to fiscal year 2011 were not readily available; therefore, GAO excluded them, as discussed in the report.

What GAO Recommends
GAO is not making any recommendations.

Content from External Source

(full report attached)

 

[JeffreyNotGeoffrey]

Thank you! Just last night at work I had a VERY conspiracy minded ueber libertarian complain about this. The usual red herrings were dropped: It's illegal for the army to use, so it must be for us! They are buying ALL the ammo so we don't have it!

My main problem with that last one is couldn't the manufacturers just make more? I mean honestly why wouldn't they. If you sell an item briskly and run out of said item, but there is still demand, it sounds like you should expand to capture a larger amount of the market. I mean the flights of fancy some of these people get! Then again this is the same guy who SWORE Obama had an ear piece in for one of the debates..., because some hack college football coach swore he saw it.

 

[deirdre]

not that I care one way or the other, but if the reason is "civil unrest" then doesn't that chart correlate nicely with the main stream medias depiction of the economy?

 

[Mick West]

not that I care one way or the other, but if the reason is "civil unrest" then doesn't that chart correlate nicely with the main stream medias depiction of the economy?

I'm not sure what your point is? The economy has been creeping up since 09. Are you saying that the better the economy, the less ammo is purchased?

Given it's all for training, I don't see why there would be a link.

 

[deirdre]

I'm not sure what your point is? The economy has been creeping up since 09. Are you saying that the better the economy, the less ammo is purchased?

Given it's all for training, I don't see why there would be a link.

the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training

 

[Mick West]

the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training

Yeah, but it's not like they shot millions of people during the great civil unrest of 2008.

 

[deirdre]

Yeah, but it's not like they shot millions of people during the great civil unrest of 2008.

I know, that's why they don't have to buy more ammo now. they still have all that left over ammo

 

[Landru]

I know, that's why they don't have to buy more ammo now. they still have all that left over ammo

They didn't purchase it. It is an IDIQ contract. Indefinite Duration, Indefinite Quantity. The gov can buy up to that amount. Sets the price without having to renegotiate a contract every time they run low.

 

[Mick West]

They didn't purchase it. It is an IDIQ contract. Indefinite Duration, Indefinite Quantity. The gov can buy up to that amount. Sets the price without having to renegotiate a contract every time they run low.

Yes, the chart above shows actual purchases. The big numbers people are adding up are the upper limits of these open ended contracts, not related to actual yearly purchases.

 

[Pete Tar]

So Alex Jones will be correcting his unprecedented ammo purchase claims?

 

[Lobster Johnson]

So Alex Jones will be correcting his unprecedented ammo purchase claims?

Yep, just like every other time he has over inflated/made shit up in the past...

 

[Jason]

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gear...ys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/. I came across this article in military times a while ago which basically debunks the whole myth of our government stockpiling munitions. As mick and others have pointed out there is a clear distinction between solicitation and "actually purchased", as the author points out in this quote:

Before we begin, it’s important to understand that an RFQ (request for quote) or solicitation is not a purchase. When Infowars says something like “the Department of Homeland Security is planning to buy a further 750 million rounds of ammo in addition to the 450 million rounds of hollow point bullets already purchased earlier this year,” or “Following controversy over its purchase of around 1.2 billion bullets in the last six months alone, the Department of Homeland Security has put out a new solicitation for over 200 million more rounds of ammunition,” the reader is led to assume, naturally, that DHS has actually purchased that amount of ammunition. That is simply not the case. A solicitation is the equivalent of a want-to-buy ad on Craigslist, writ large. It’s not an actual purchase.

Content from External Source

What rarely ever gets discussed in these ammo purchases topics is the fact that the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is the principal investigative arm of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). It was created in 2003 through a merger of the investigative and interior enforcement elements of the U.S. Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service. ICE now has more than 20,000 employees in offices in all 50 states and 47 foreign countries. The government added a new agency in response to the terrorist attacks on 911. So isn't it conceivable that with an increase in man power, the government would also have to increase its munitions' purchases. You can clearly see that after 2002, ammunition orders begin to rise up until 2009. During that time we we're also fighting 2 wars abroad, and possibly preparing for another in Syria that never happened.

 

[Tobes]

the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training

When did the government grab anyone's guns last year?

 

[Pete Tar]

She means the hysteria over 'they're gurna tuk our gurns!' - that thing.

 

[Tobes]

Yeah, probably that. Despite what some people might think, the government hasn't really tried and with 300 million privately owned guns in this country, there's no way it could ever happen.

 

[NoParty]

Yeah, probably that. Despite what some people might think, the government hasn't really tried and with 300 million privately owned guns in this country, there's no way it could ever happen.

From a rational standpoint, you are of course correct.

However, practically speaking, in 2014 there appears to be little connection between
something being even remotely plausible, and it getting traction on YouTube, etc.

(someone should set up some kind of site that kind of, you know, anti-bunks that nonsense!)

 

[Joe]

Im not sure how accurate this chart is . Im sure if its inaccurate someone will debunk it ?

The last chart provides the chilling breakdown of just how much ammunition was requested. The grand total? A mere 1.88 BILLION rounds ordered in less than eight years time.

Content from External Source

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/the-history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases.html

almost 20 million guns sold in 2012 alone. Folks that’s a lot of iron that equals a lot of firepower in the hands of the U.S. population… A rifle behind every blade of grass…

Content from External Source

 

[RealTruth]

How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm)
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.

 

[RealTruth]

The economy has not been steadily rising. Another lie. It is in it's most dire state ever and will probably crash within the next couple of weeks. US economy will not see the summer. I'm guessing March 4-22, somewhere in there.

 

[Mick West]

How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. .

Where's the document?

 

[Joe]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html I can see Homeland security buying bullets but Social Security ?

 

[Joe]

found this post on last years breitbart article trying to debunk DHS abnormal ammo purchases .

CliffK

Sorry, but just because DHS has bought civilian calibers in the past doesn't mean it's a normal thing for a govt. agency to do. Two of the calibers you listed, 7.62x39 and .45LC, are not in use by any other govt. agency. To start off with, 7.62 is an obsolete Communist round, and has been superseded by the 5.45x39. The only people still shooting these are civilian enthusiasts and rebel forces, as surplus ammo used to be everywhere in that caliber. I've yet to see any govt. agency walking around with an AK47 service weapon.

The .45LC was originally a black powder cartridge used in single action revolvers back in the 19th century. It's been updated with smokeless powder and some revolvers and rifles are still chambered in that caliber, but no govt. agency would bother with such an old and unimpressive loading. There are no govt. agencies using service pistols chambered in .45LC. The .45LC has a following of enthusiasts that like it for the ease of reloading with cast bullets, cowboy action shooters, and those who own antique firearms. It is NOT something you can use in a semi-auto pistol, and all govt. agencies have upgraded to semi-auto pistols from the old revolvers. When was the last time you saw anyone packing a revolver? Decades ago.

.44mag used to be a service cartridge years ago when revolvers were the norm.
However, most police departments soon got rid of the .44mag because it was simply too violent for a service pistol.
They used reduced loads for less recoil and eventually went to a different caliber completely.

They are NOT practicing with this ammo because it's the "normal" thing for DHS to do.
They are either stockpiling this ammo to keep it out of civilian hands or they're familiarizing DHS agents with civilian calibers in the event of civil war.

I can possibly understand .22LR to a point.
There exist several conversion kits to modify centerfire rifles and pistols to fire .22LR.
It's used as a cheap alternative to practicing with much more expensive centerfire calibers.
However, seeing as the numbers stated above were justified by "practice" and "qualification" sessions, only one of two things can be deduced:
-DHS is training with .22LR and saying they use X rounds per agent, then stockpiling the centerfire calibers.
-DHS is stockpiling .22LR to get it off the shelves.

Here's the deal.
Nearly every agency in the US uses one of these pistol calibers, in general order of common to least common:
.40S&W
9x19mm
.45GAP
.45ACP
.357SIG
One exception is the Secret Service, which uses the 5.7x28mm.

Rifle calibers are a little less biased, but popular calibers include .223/5.56, .308/7.62x51, .30-06, .338Lapua, and a few agencies are actually using the .50BMG anti-tank round AGAINST CIVILIAN CRIMINALS.
You'll find the odd-caliber rifle in smaller police/sheriff departments, but they normally follow along these common calibers because of special law enforcement discounts and the support structure for them.

That's it.
They pretty much ALL fall into that category because of the support for those calibers.
Most manufacturers that tailor their guns to law enforcement/military only offer those calibers.
Most ammo manufacturers develop special loads for law enforcement in only those calibers.

Saying that DHS is AOK because they've been ordering obsolete/inappropriate ammo for years only tells me that they've been planning to have problems or create problems with the American people for a long time.
I won't even bother with all of the other "facts" in the article, because they've pretty much been cut to ribbons in the comments already.
This article isn't even worth printing out to wipe my own a ss with.

Content from External Source

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth Still cant find how much ammo the public has purchased over the years ?

 

[Jason]

Still cant find how much ammo the public has purchased over the years ?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-ammo-the-next-bitcoin-or-gold-in-the-1970s/

It’s difficult to get precise numbers on how many bullets are sold in the consumer market in the U.S. each year. The Treasury’s Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (split off from the ATF a decade ago, not that anyone noticed) collects an 11% tax on ammo sales by manufacturers. That tax serves as a rough proxy for demand, and government statistics show receipts soared from $68 million in 2000 to $129 million in 2008 and $172 million in calendar 2009, President Obama’s first full year in office. That would imply wholesale bullet sales of about $1.6 billion, or possibly retail sales of $3 billion. Consumer retail purchases of clothing and footwear last year, by comparison, were about $327 billion according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

It turns out 2009 may have been a high-water mark for ammo sales, since TTB statistics show tax receipts fell to $157 million in 2012 (the final number might be amended as manufacturers submit their final returns). Overall taxes on firearms and ammo have climbed over the Obama years due to rising gun sales, with the TTB’s total take rising from $454 million in 2009 to $493 million last year. In the fiscal first quarter ended Dec. 30, the combined taxes on firearms and ammo climbed to $158 million, possibly implying a record-breaking $600 million fiscal year.

Content from External Source

 

[RealTruth]

Where's the document?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.

 

[Mick West]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.

They are not actually buying that amount, it's just various upper limits on open ended contracts. That's how much they could buy over several years if they wanted.

Where are actual physical purchases documented?

 

[Joe]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-ammo-the-next-bitcoin-or-gold-in-the-1970s/

It’s difficult to get precise numbers on how many bullets are sold in the consumer market in the U.S. each year. The Treasury’s Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (split off from the ATF a decade ago, not that anyone noticed) collects an 11% tax on ammo sales by manufacturers. That tax serves as a rough proxy for demand, and government statistics show receipts soared from $68 million in 2000 to $129 million in 2008 and $172 million in calendar 2009, President Obama’s first full year in office. That would imply wholesale bullet sales of about $1.6 billion, or possibly retail sales of $3 billion. Consumer retail purchases of clothing and footwear last year, by comparison, were about $327 billion according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

It turns out 2009 may have been a high-water mark for ammo sales, since TTB statistics show tax receipts fell to $157 million in 2012 (the final number might be amended as manufacturers submit their final returns). Overall taxes on firearms and ammo have climbed over the Obama years due to rising gun sales, with the TTB’s total take rising from $454 million in 2009 to $493 million last year. In the fiscal first quarter ended Dec. 30, the combined taxes on firearms and ammo climbed to $158 million, possibly implying a record-breaking $600 million fiscal year.

Content from External Source

I like that "Is Ammo the next Bitcoin" ? Iv been saying that for years . Ammo if purchased right and in bulk will always retain its value for years . Unlike paper money . What good is gold if you dont have the lead to keep it ?

 

[Jason]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.

Honestly check out this link; http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gear...ys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/. They break it down very nicely for you. The difference between a purchase order, and whats actually been purchase. Keep in mind we've had several new agencies come to life like Homeland Security in 2003, and some expand to deal with terrorism abroad and at home. Not too mention the 2 wars we've been fighting for a decade + now. Its honestly business as usual from a business stand point. Putting in larger orders can yield significant savings on the back end.

 

[Joe]

How accurate is this ?

 

[Joe]

What about the militarization of local police ? MRAPS being sold for 2000 to local police and DHS working with the locals ?

 

[RealTruth]

They are not actually buying that amount, it's just various upper limits on open ended contracts. That's how much they could buy over several years if they wanted.

Where are actual physical purchases documented?

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa.../03/22/dhs-denies-massive-ammunition-purchase
Not a copy of the actual document. I can send You the other video if You like. The above link repeats many of Your exhausted arguments; 1.8 billion rounds over four or five years is nothing unusual. But it does mention the quantities which seem to be reasonably consistent across sources suggesting the numbers are real, whether an 'upper end' or not, it is still an unusually high number. Even the article sounds skeptical defending the US position and Your argument. The other link is not as appropriate for this forum, it should be discussed in chem-trail debunking debunked, though the presenter briefly shows the US purchasing order for 2014. He was also part of the US geoengineering program and has worked with senators and congressmen who have seen or been on the board for Agenda 21. He also talks briefly of the CIA's agenda to market and propagate the idea that conspiracy theorists must be nuts to discredit their inquiries into the JFK incident. I actually think You would enjoy the film and find it very informative. I'd be interested to know.

 

[Pete Tar]

How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm)
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.

Good grief.

 

[NoParty]

How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm)
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.

Pardon my ignorance, but when you stressed "the ACTUAL document" I took that to mean that you'd seen it, and would share it with the rest of us.

Now there's a whole bunch more posts…did I just miss it? Again, I trust that you're not just blowing smoke, but can you give me a link to the
"2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago" ?




p.s. re. the demise of the U.S. economy by 22 March…actually a bit of a relief: I've got a massive American Express bill coming due on 25 March.

 

[RealTruth]

Good grief.

Not sure how to interpret that. Be credible. If You are really serious about debunking chemtrails, analyze the air, water and snow Yourself or send it out to a lab, film the whole ordeal just to prove You are right, show Me it is actually safe. Same with Your vaccination shots. Get it analyzed at a lab, post the results or a video that does the same. Posting a bunch of pictures is no more (or less) credible than the original 'conspiracy' of photos claiming they're chemicals - only difference is Your explanation suggests it's normal test procedures. Does not explain the trail that doesn't disappear, exhaust 'switching over' (stopping for a few moments, then opening wide up again(or perhaps they were just changing the gas tank in mid flight). Does not explain unusual amounts of barium, aluminum oxide and even bacteria that should not exist in the stratosphere at all.
Yes, indeed. I don't let people off easy. I like scientific evidence more than fabricated documents - the whole debunking thing is all about the credibility of documents anyway. The question is, why would people want to make such 'crazy' claims? You think people want to make up crazy conspiracies to scare people. I'll admit, I'm sure some do. But in general, these are concerned and more importantly, often more informed and more mentally stable than the general populous. This talks about cognitive dissonant and how many people will find and believe anything rather than admit to facts if they threaten core belief systems.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

 

[Pete Tar]

You haven't actually read a thing on this site have you?

This thread is about ammo purchases. Focus dude.

 

[RealTruth]

Pardon my ignorance, but when you stressed "the ACTUAL document" I took that to mean that you'd seen it, and would share it with the rest of us.

Now there's a whole bunch more posts…did I just miss it? Again, I trust that you're not just blowing smoke, but can you give me a link to the
"2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago" ?




p.s. re. the demise of the U.S. economy by 22 March…actually a bit of a relief: I've got a massive American Express bill coming due on 25 March.

No, what I'm saying is that the actual amount is not disputed or contested. Senators have spoken about it saying exactly what You claim here, that there is nothing unusual about it. I did misquote the amount at 2.2 billion (bad memory), it was 1.8. The point is that it is significantly more than usual and raised questions; once again, the only reason We are talking about it at all. We know it's more than normal, the conspiracy theory is that it may be used against civilians by police, the debunk is that it is normal to purchase in bulk to save money. To the best of My knowledge, that is the only real issue, or are We still disputing quantity?

 

[Mick West]

Not sure how to interpret that. Be credible. If You are really serious about debunking chemtrails, analyze the air, water and snow Yourself or send it out to a lab, film the whole ordeal just to prove You are right, show Me it is actually safe. Same with Your vaccination shots. Get it analyzed at a lab, post the results or a video that does the same. Posting a bunch of pictures is no more (or less) credible than the original 'conspiracy' of photos claiming they're chemicals - only difference is Your explanation suggests it's normal test procedures. Does not explain the trail that doesn't disappear, exhaust 'switching over' (stopping for a few moments, then opening wide up again(or perhaps they were just changing the gas tank in mid flight). Does not explain unusual amounts of barium, aluminum oxide and even bacteria that should not exist in the stratosphere at all.
Yes, indeed. I don't let people off easy. I like scientific evidence more than fabricated documents - the whole debunking thing is all about the credibility of documents anyway. The question is, why would people want to make such 'crazy' claims? You think people want to make up crazy conspiracies to scare people. I'll admit, I'm sure some do. But in general, these are concerned and more importantly, often more informed and more mentally stable than the general populous. This talks about cognitive dissonant and how many people will find and believe anything rather than admit to facts if they threaten core belief systems.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

Getting off topic. Where is the evidence if these billions of rounds. Quote it.

 

[RealTruth]

You haven't actually read a thing on this site have you?

This thread is about ammo purchases. Focus dude.

Too much, I think. Can't focus, too much bullshit.

 

[RealTruth]

Getting off topic. Where is the evidence if these billions of rounds. Quote it.

It is in both articles I sent earlier. NY times and huffington post articles, read them

 

[Mick West]

It is in both articles I sent earlier. NY times and huffington post articles, read them

Quote it.

 

[NoParty]

No, what I'm saying is that the actual amount is not disputed or contested. Senators have spoken about it saying exactly what You claim here, that there is nothing unusual about it. I did misquote the amount at 2.2 billion (bad memory), it was 1.8. The point is that it is significantly more than usual and raised questions; once again, the only reason We are talking about it at all. We know it's more than normal, the conspiracy theory is that it may be used against civilians by police, the debunk is that it is normal to purchase in bulk to save money. To the best of My knowledge, that is the only real issue, or are We still disputing quantity?

Okay, not sure why you ignored my very specific request for "the ACTUAL document" you claimed was so important
(it's obviously not in the HuffPo story as you're now implying)…
so I'll ask one more time: Do you have the document you say verifies your claims?

p.s. This site focuses on one topic per thread, so you can address all your issues…just not in this thread…but since you mentioned the Iranian Gov's ("PressTv")
slant of the Wood/Douglas study, I feel compelled to ask if you actually read the real study yourself, or only the Iranian government's take on it?