Debunked: Government Stockpiling Unusual Amounts of Ammo [by Tom Coburn's GAO Report]

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The final nail in the coffin of the already widely debunked theory that the government (specifically the Department of Homeland Security) is stockpiling unusually large amounts of ammo (presumably to prepare for some great civil unrest) comes in the form of a GAO report requested by Senator Tom Coburn and others, released today

The bottom line:
  • The DHS makes ammunition purchases aimed at minimizing cost
  • The ammo is used almost entirely in training, at an average rate of 110 Million rounds a year
  • The large figures quoted are the upper limits for open ended multi-year contracts
  • Actual purchases of physical ammo have declined, not increased


http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...-dhs-ammunition-purchases-declined-since-2009 (http://archive.is/fktwx)
The report:
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-119 (http://archive.is/r88Jd)
(full report attached)
 

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JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
Thank you! Just last night at work I had a VERY conspiracy minded ueber libertarian complain about this. The usual red herrings were dropped: It's illegal for the army to use, so it must be for us! They are buying ALL the ammo so we don't have it!

My main problem with that last one is couldn't the manufacturers just make more? I mean honestly why wouldn't they. If you sell an item briskly and run out of said item, but there is still demand, it sounds like you should expand to capture a larger amount of the market. I mean the flights of fancy some of these people get! Then again this is the same guy who SWORE Obama had an ear piece in for one of the debates..., because some hack college football coach swore he saw it.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
not that I care one way or the other, but if the reason is "civil unrest" then doesn't that chart correlate nicely with the main stream medias depiction of the economy?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
not that I care one way or the other, but if the reason is "civil unrest" then doesn't that chart correlate nicely with the main stream medias depiction of the economy?

I'm not sure what your point is? The economy has been creeping up since 09. Are you saying that the better the economy, the less ammo is purchased?

Given it's all for training, I don't see why there would be a link.

 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I'm not sure what your point is? The economy has been creeping up since 09. Are you saying that the better the economy, the less ammo is purchased?

Given it's all for training, I don't see why there would be a link.
the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training

Yeah, but it's not like they shot millions of people during the great civil unrest of 2008. :)
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I know, that's why they don't have to buy more ammo now. they still have all that left over ammo :)
They didn't purchase it. It is an IDIQ contract. Indefinite Duration, Indefinite Quantity. The gov can buy up to that amount. Sets the price without having to renegotiate a contract every time they run low.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
They didn't purchase it. It is an IDIQ contract. Indefinite Duration, Indefinite Quantity. The gov can buy up to that amount. Sets the price without having to renegotiate a contract every time they run low.

Yes, the chart above shows actual purchases. The big numbers people are adding up are the upper limits of these open ended contracts, not related to actual yearly purchases.
 

Jason

Senior Member
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gear...ys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/. I came across this article in military times a while ago which basically debunks the whole myth of our government stockpiling munitions. As mick and others have pointed out there is a clear distinction between solicitation and "actually purchased", as the author points out in this quote:
What rarely ever gets discussed in these ammo purchases topics is the fact that the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is the principal investigative arm of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). It was created in 2003 through a merger of the investigative and interior enforcement elements of the U.S. Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service. ICE now has more than 20,000 employees in offices in all 50 states and 47 foreign countries. The government added a new agency in response to the terrorist attacks on 911. So isn't it conceivable that with an increase in man power, the government would also have to increase its munitions' purchases. You can clearly see that after 2002, ammunition orders begin to rise up until 2009. During that time we we're also fighting 2 wars abroad, and possibly preparing for another in Syria that never happened.
 

Tobes

Member
the better the economy, the less civil unrest. but when I looked up 'the conspiracy' it seems to be more recent and probably related to the government grabbing guns thing of 2013.

and of course theyre gonna say its all for training

When did the government grab anyone's guns last year?
 

Tobes

Member
Yeah, probably that. Despite what some people might think, the government hasn't really tried and with 300 million privately owned guns in this country, there's no way it could ever happen.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Yeah, probably that. Despite what some people might think, the government hasn't really tried and with 300 million privately owned guns in this country, there's no way it could ever happen.
From a rational standpoint, you are of course correct.

However, practically speaking, in 2014 there appears to be little connection between
something being even remotely plausible, and it getting traction on YouTube, etc. :(

(someone should set up some kind of site that kind of, you know, anti-bunks that nonsense!)
 
J

Joe

Guest
Im not sure how accurate this chart is . Im sure if its inaccurate someone will debunk it ?
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/the-history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases.html
 

RealTruth

Member
How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm) :p
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.
 

RealTruth

Member
The economy has not been steadily rising. Another lie. It is in it's most dire state ever and will probably crash within the next couple of weeks. US economy will not see the summer. I'm guessing March 4-22, somewhere in there.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. .

Where's the document?
 
J

Joe

Guest
found this post on last years breitbart article trying to debunk DHS abnormal ammo purchases .
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth Still cant find how much ammo the public has purchased over the years ?
 

Jason

Senior Member
Still cant find how much ammo the public has purchased over the years ?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-ammo-the-next-bitcoin-or-gold-in-the-1970s/
 

RealTruth

Member
Where's the document?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.

They are not actually buying that amount, it's just various upper limits on open ended contracts. That's how much they could buy over several years if they wanted.

Where are actual physical purchases documented?
 
J

Joe

Guest
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-ammo-the-next-bitcoin-or-gold-in-the-1970s/
I like that "Is Ammo the next Bitcoin" ? Iv been saying that for years . Ammo if purchased right and in bulk will always retain its value for years . Unlike paper money . What good is gold if you dont have the lead to keep it ? :)
 

Jason

Senior Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/homeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html


I can also send a link to a video where the presenter displays an overhead of the document, but it's from an actual scientist and it's laced with facts - not sure if that's Your thing. It would be tough to debunk. Brother, I don't mean disrespect, but the world is in serious trouble and really, there is no motivation behind conspiracy theories except information. Best 'debunk' You have that's being pumped out on mainstream media is that this is perfectly normal and the US are just managing their expenditures by buying in bulk - the stash represents the amount for the next four or five years instead of the usual one year purchase.

There is no doubt they have placed an unusually high purchase order, nothing to dispute; that's common knowledge. The video I have included here spins it in a way You will appreciate, saying this type of purchasing is 'perfectly normal' considering the financial situation. Your evidence (charts) demonstrate there is nothing normal about it. Based on Your information, it is a FACT that they have placed an unusually high amount of ammunitions which is exactly why it raised eyebrows and why We are talking about it now. Question is, is bulk buying is a very convenient excuse for people who don't really want to know or think about the actual why. Your economy is going to collapse completely in a few weeks or months. They want a well armed police force for the occasion. Or are You going to tell Me it won't be crazy when bread is $20. a loaf? That's why, Brother. Your country is about to fall, at least economically.
Honestly check out this link; http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gear...ys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/. They break it down very nicely for you. The difference between a purchase order, and whats actually been purchase. Keep in mind we've had several new agencies come to life like Homeland Security in 2003, and some expand to deal with terrorism abroad and at home. Not too mention the 2 wars we've been fighting for a decade + now. Its honestly business as usual from a business stand point. Putting in larger orders can yield significant savings on the back end.
 
J

Joe

Guest
What about the militarization of local police ? MRAPS being sold for 2000 to local police and DHS working with the locals ?
 

RealTruth

Member
They are not actually buying that amount, it's just various upper limits on open ended contracts. That's how much they could buy over several years if they wanted.

Where are actual physical purchases documented?
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa.../03/22/dhs-denies-massive-ammunition-purchase
Not a copy of the actual document. I can send You the other video if You like. The above link repeats many of Your exhausted arguments; 1.8 billion rounds over four or five years is nothing unusual. But it does mention the quantities which seem to be reasonably consistent across sources suggesting the numbers are real, whether an 'upper end' or not, it is still an unusually high number. Even the article sounds skeptical defending the US position and Your argument. The other link is not as appropriate for this forum, it should be discussed in chem-trail debunking debunked, though the presenter briefly shows the US purchasing order for 2014. He was also part of the US geoengineering program and has worked with senators and congressmen who have seen or been on the board for Agenda 21. He also talks briefly of the CIA's agenda to market and propagate the idea that conspiracy theorists must be nuts to discredit their inquiries into the JFK incident. I actually think You would enjoy the film and find it very informative. I'd be interested to know.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm) :p
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.

Good grief.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
How gullible are the people who visit Your site? You are the worst 'debunker' ever. Are You paid to continue dumbing people down, or is this a reflection of Your actual beliefs? Nobody needs to see Your 'debunk' pictures about what You call chemtrails. Anyone who wants real truth just needs to collect a jar of snow and put it under a microscope, test that shit Yourself. It's full of barium and aluminum. Your government is poisoning You. You want to live in denial, no problem. When You dumb down the rest of humanity, it's criminal. The US bought 2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago, research the ACTUAL document Yourself. Even the Chinese and Russian governments know it's a fact, not a conspiracy or rumour, there is a trade receipt for the purchase. We want to WHY that number is so drastically increased, considering according to THIS information, 75 million would be normal. That's more than 1000% increase in usual ammunitions. So why? Let Me guess, You got no answer and probably won't post My comment. That's part of keeping people dumb - good on Ya! (not really, sarasm) :p
If You want to wake up and get some real information, let Me know, I'll point You in the right direction.
Pardon my ignorance, but when you stressed "the ACTUAL document" I took that to mean that you'd seen it, and would share it with the rest of us.

Now there's a whole bunch more posts…did I just miss it? Again, I trust that you're not just blowing smoke, but can you give me a link to the
"2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago" ?




p.s. re. the demise of the U.S. economy by 22 March…actually a bit of a relief: I've got a massive American Express bill coming due on 25 March.
 

RealTruth

Member
Good grief.
Not sure how to interpret that. Be credible. If You are really serious about debunking chemtrails, analyze the air, water and snow Yourself or send it out to a lab, film the whole ordeal just to prove You are right, show Me it is actually safe. Same with Your vaccination shots. Get it analyzed at a lab, post the results or a video that does the same. Posting a bunch of pictures is no more (or less) credible than the original 'conspiracy' of photos claiming they're chemicals - only difference is Your explanation suggests it's normal test procedures. Does not explain the trail that doesn't disappear, exhaust 'switching over' (stopping for a few moments, then opening wide up again(or perhaps they were just changing the gas tank in mid flight). Does not explain unusual amounts of barium, aluminum oxide and even bacteria that should not exist in the stratosphere at all.
Yes, indeed. I don't let people off easy. I like scientific evidence more than fabricated documents - the whole debunking thing is all about the credibility of documents anyway. The question is, why would people want to make such 'crazy' claims? You think people want to make up crazy conspiracies to scare people. I'll admit, I'm sure some do. But in general, these are concerned and more importantly, often more informed and more mentally stable than the general populous. This talks about cognitive dissonant and how many people will find and believe anything rather than admit to facts if they threaten core belief systems.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
You haven't actually read a thing on this site have you?

This thread is about ammo purchases. Focus dude.
 

RealTruth

Member
Pardon my ignorance, but when you stressed "the ACTUAL document" I took that to mean that you'd seen it, and would share it with the rest of us.

Now there's a whole bunch more posts…did I just miss it? Again, I trust that you're not just blowing smoke, but can you give me a link to the
"2.2 BILLION rounds of hollow tipped bullets less that two weeks ago" ?




p.s. re. the demise of the U.S. economy by 22 March…actually a bit of a relief: I've got a massive American Express bill coming due on 25 March.
No, what I'm saying is that the actual amount is not disputed or contested. Senators have spoken about it saying exactly what You claim here, that there is nothing unusual about it. I did misquote the amount at 2.2 billion (bad memory), it was 1.8. The point is that it is significantly more than usual and raised questions; once again, the only reason We are talking about it at all. We know it's more than normal, the conspiracy theory is that it may be used against civilians by police, the debunk is that it is normal to purchase in bulk to save money. To the best of My knowledge, that is the only real issue, or are We still disputing quantity?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Not sure how to interpret that. Be credible. If You are really serious about debunking chemtrails, analyze the air, water and snow Yourself or send it out to a lab, film the whole ordeal just to prove You are right, show Me it is actually safe. Same with Your vaccination shots. Get it analyzed at a lab, post the results or a video that does the same. Posting a bunch of pictures is no more (or less) credible than the original 'conspiracy' of photos claiming they're chemicals - only difference is Your explanation suggests it's normal test procedures. Does not explain the trail that doesn't disappear, exhaust 'switching over' (stopping for a few moments, then opening wide up again(or perhaps they were just changing the gas tank in mid flight). Does not explain unusual amounts of barium, aluminum oxide and even bacteria that should not exist in the stratosphere at all.
Yes, indeed. I don't let people off easy. I like scientific evidence more than fabricated documents - the whole debunking thing is all about the credibility of documents anyway. The question is, why would people want to make such 'crazy' claims? You think people want to make up crazy conspiracies to scare people. I'll admit, I'm sure some do. But in general, these are concerned and more importantly, often more informed and more mentally stable than the general populous. This talks about cognitive dissonant and how many people will find and believe anything rather than admit to facts if they threaten core belief systems.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/
Getting off topic. Where is the evidence if these billions of rounds. Quote it.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
No, what I'm saying is that the actual amount is not disputed or contested. Senators have spoken about it saying exactly what You claim here, that there is nothing unusual about it. I did misquote the amount at 2.2 billion (bad memory), it was 1.8. The point is that it is significantly more than usual and raised questions; once again, the only reason We are talking about it at all. We know it's more than normal, the conspiracy theory is that it may be used against civilians by police, the debunk is that it is normal to purchase in bulk to save money. To the best of My knowledge, that is the only real issue, or are We still disputing quantity?
Okay, not sure why you ignored my very specific request for "the ACTUAL document" you claimed was so important
(it's obviously not in the HuffPo story as you're now implying)…
so I'll ask one more time: Do you have the document you say verifies your claims?

p.s. This site focuses on one topic per thread, so you can address all your issues…just not in this thread…but since you mentioned the Iranian Gov's ("PressTv")
slant of the Wood/Douglas study, I feel compelled to ask if you actually read the real study yourself, or only the Iranian government's take on it?
 
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