Debunked: Cloud Angel in Florida for the new Pope?

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This cloud photographed in Florida (March 13th 2013) caused a bit of a stir because it looked a bit like an angel, and a new Pope had just been elected, causing some people to think it was a message from God.



More photos here:
http://www.wptv.com/gallery/news/news_photo_gallery/angel-in-the-sky#

So what is it? It's a type of cloud called virga - it's precipitation, usually snow, at a very high altitude. It usually evaporates before it reaches the ground. It gives this characteristic streak appearance (sometimes called a fallstreak), and is often hooked by the differences in wind speed as it falls. They come in all kinds of shapes, and the shape varies based on the direction you look at it from.





The characteristic "wings" shape comes when the entire cloud has precipitated out, you see it more often in a "fallstreak hole", when the ice cloud is formed suddenly in a layer of supercooled water clouds.



I took this photo from Santa Monica, looking towards Malibu:


Here's a close-up, contrast enhanced, with a bit of imagination you can see some figures in there:


Here's a photo of the weather in that region earlier that day:

Source: http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worl...nd&time=2013-03-13T12:00:00&switch=geographic
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
In one of the Rev Michelle's You Tubes, she points out virga as evidence of chemicals falling from a chem trail
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Nothing here is debunked. It has been widely accepted as a "cloud" angel, and since this author seems to verify that it is indeed a cloud (as opposed to photoshop) it takes the prize as the most "angelic" one ever recorded. This report verifies far more than it debunks.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Nothing here is debunked. It has been widely accepted as a "cloud" angel, and since this author seems to verify that it is indeed a cloud (as opposed to photoshop) it takes the prize as the most "angelic" one ever recorded. This report verifies far more than it debunks.

There's a few contenders:





I'd agree it is a cloud that looks like an angel. It's just nothing special.
 
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Grieves

Senior Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole 'winged beauty' angel motif isn't remotely biblical, is it? Angels in the Bible are typically portrayed as being exceedingly strange in appearance, if not downright terrifying... the whole 'curvy white people with wings' was just a trend in artistic representation that caught on.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole 'winged beauty' angel motif isn't remotely biblical, is it? Angels in the Bible are typically portrayed as being exceedingly strange in appearance, if not downright terrifying... the whole 'curvy white people with wings' was just a trend in artistic representation that caught on.

You're right. Just like when people see Jesus on a piece of toast, He looks just like His paintings. :)
 

TheBrain

New Member
I'd agree it is a cloud that looks like an angel. It's just nothing special.

I just bet you mega debunkers are the real life at a party :p

While it may be 'nothing special' to YOU, billions of people around the world do find them special and at the very least interesting. There are cloud appreciation societies that go out of their way to collect fantastic cloud apparitions. There is nothing to debunk here.

For any religious person that believes in god (several billion) it is not hard to think that their god has arranged the water molecules in the cloud in such a way to send a sign understood in modern context. Sure it might be a coincidence... but it might be more. YOU cannot do more than state your opinion that they are "just clouds, nothing special" Just enjoy the darn things or leave em alone... it is not necessary to debunk everything

Fiery Horse of the Apocalypse
Edinburgh, Scotland
Horse_001.jpg

Hippos Purros (Flame coloured Horse), over Edinburgh, Scotland
Credit: © Colin Fraser & Maggie Carson

Grim Reaper as Night Falls
Grim_Reaper_001.jpg
Wait a minute, is that not the Grim Reaper on the horizon?
Photo: by © Richard Unwin


So take a break from feeling that you need to debunk EVERYTHING and just enjoy the view from time to time and realized that you may not know everything ;)
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
And the ancient Romans and others saw omens in the entrails of slaughter animals.

Folks see the Virgin in windows and tree bark and toast (they see Elvis also, is that an omen?)

I will be impressed by a real burning bush, now THAT would be an omen.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
No one's discounting that clouds are purdy, or that they sometimes resemble things, even distinctly. It's the 'this is an unnatural phenomenon divinely inspired in recognition of the Pope' that's being debunked, simply by pointing out that the particular cloud formation is of a common type, and that there's nothing remotely uncommon about clouds that look like things, including angels, which detracts from the supposed significance of the date. If you or others want to believe that God produces iconic images in the clouds as winks and nods toward his existence and for our general viewing pleasure, that's fine. The purpose of this thread seems to be to point out that both the type of cloud and its shape are neither unnatural or unique. I only added that by Biblical standards angels aren't winged anyway, and I'd wonder why God would adhere to popular culture.

Not a particularly significant issue, granted... but it doesn't all have to be heavy.

Your grim reaper image also has a somewhat distinct 'puff the magic dragon' element too it. Look at the 'grim reaper' as a plume of smoke from the nostril, the tall 'ridge' of cloud beside him the frame of his very evident eye, and a tall ear shortly behind that. Poor old Puff. Jackie Paper's an ass.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
There seems to be a desire in men to 'see' things in patterns. We see a 'man in the moon', some other cultures see a scarred woman's face and yet others see a Hare. Look at the various images have seen in stars
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Doesn't the bible forbid seeking signs and omens in things as an abomination unto His sensibilities?
 

TheBrain

New Member
If you or others want to believe that God produces iconic images in the clouds as winks and nods toward his existence and for our general viewing pleasure, that's fine

Well me no... as yet no one has proven god to me BUT I keep an open mind that there might be proof. But you also cannot disprove there are no gods... so for all we know these manifestations might be more than coincidence. Just don't need to debunk everything for the sake of debunking. It makes skeptics just as bad as blind believers

I only added that by Biblical standards angels aren't winged anyway, and I'd wonder why God would adhere to popular culture.

Well first I wasn't picking on you :pand second why wouldn't a god adhere to what people consider popular? Since Jews, Muslim and Christians all follow the same god anyway, seems he appears in many forms to many people... a godlike thing I suppose. But on those angels you speak of I agree... Today we see these as Cherubim but in King Solomon's day they looked like these


Your grim reaper image also has a somewhat distinct 'puff the magic dragon' element too it.

Yes I saw the dragon :cool: See? Now you are getting the hang of it... might be hope for you yet :p
 

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MikeC

Closed Account
There cannot possibly be proof of "god" in the judeo-christian-islamic sense of an infinitely powerful being that predates the universe and has no known creator.

Any "proof" would, by necessity, be more than a human mind could possibly understand, because it would have to prove the infinite power of such a being - and it is not possible to "prove" that.

A god in the sense of some other religions - where gods are somewhat less powerful, and often imperfect - that might be provable.
 

TheBrain

New Member
Doesn't the bible forbid seeking signs and omens in things as an abomination unto His sensibilities?

Not that I follow that book but doesn't Revelations tell us to watch for all kinds of signs in the heavens? :rolleyes: Isn't every devote Christian out there watching for those signs that the rapture and the end of days is imminent? Didn't the Vatican get hit by lightning the day the Pope resigned?

Sure you can say "Oh just coincidence..." and feel better about yourself... but in the end you don't REALLY know... :p
 

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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You don't REALLY know anything. That's kind of a pointless observation.

You can, however, weigh the evidence for things.
 

TheBrain

New Member
Any "proof" would, by necessity, be more than a human mind could possibly understand, because it would have to prove the infinite power of such a being - and it is not possible to "prove" that.

Well if some being would appear before me and create a second sun in the sky, I might consider that proof of omnipotence...

My mind can also conceive the question "If God is all powerful and omnipotent, can He create a boulder bigger than He can lift?"

Point is debunkoskeptoids© have no special insight into what is or isn't possible in this Universe... all they can do is state their opinion:cool: Must be hard though, going through life with such a narrow viewpoint and wearing blinders
wearingblinders.jpg [h=3][/h]
 

TheBrain

New Member
You don't REALLY know anything. That's kind of a pointless observation.

If you admit you don't really know anything, why work so hard to debunk everything? I honestly don't understand this pathological need most debunkers have to call everything bunk.

I mean skepticism is healthy, but you even call your site BUNK

I on the other hand know a great many things, because those in the know share with me occasionally

You can, however, weigh the evidence for things

yes you can... and I have scads of evidence to support the idea that the 'nature spirits' are more than just coincidence or 'pareidolia' (another favorite debunker standby) If it were simply 'pareidolia' people would see different things not all the same thing... like this award winning Dragon photo.

The problem is that debunkers are usually so busy debunking that they don't ever take the time to even look at other possibilities.

But looking around the net, I don't see the debunkers making much headway... they are drowned out by the hoards of rabid believers. :rolleyes:

Which is good, because while those two groups battle it out, the serious people can just get on with it.

TTFN
 

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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
yes you can... and I have scads of evidence to support the idea that the 'nature spirits' are more than just coincidence or 'pareidolia' (another favorite debunker standby) If it were simply 'pareidolia' people would see different things not all the same thing... like this award winning Dragon photo.

But pareidolia is see things that look like things, so it makes perfect sense that most people would see the same thing.

The cloud looks a bit like a classic depiction of an angel, so people see that.

What evidence is there that it's more than that?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Point is debunkoskeptoids© have no special insight into what is or isn't possible in this Universe... all they can do is state their opinion:cool:

We can also point to verifiable evidence, and use verifiable reasoning. We can certainly also point out when things are false, or misidentified.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Point is debunkoskeptoids© have no special insight into what is or isn't possible in this Universe... all they can do is state their opinion:cool: Must be hard though, going through life with such a narrow viewpoint and wearing blinders

I'm curious as to why you call bringing actual evidence to the table "opinion"? Discarding the evidence is to have blinders on.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
More folks are interested in Paris Hilton or the Kadarsians or the football player with the fake girlfriend than are interested in geology or history or math. Does that make geology/history/math LESS important?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The problem is that folks have been 'seeing' these signs for almost 2000 years

I'm saw people saw signs a lot more before that too. When people lack understanding of things, then everything is a sign from a god. The sun rising in the morning is an act of god.

All I'm pointing out here is that this is just a cloud that looks a bit like an angels. The point is that it's not inexplicable.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
yeah there are some good ones out there :p
lol, holy lord tundering jeebus, I've not seen that pick before... surely it's a fake/photo-shop? I've never seen a celestial troll-face.
 

TheBrain

New Member
What evidence is there that it's more than that?

What evidence is there that it's NOT more than that?

When that Sooth Sayer in Rome said "Beware the Ides of March" that kinda hit home for Caesar :p

But debunkers will never know if there is more to it or not, because they debunk on their personal bias :p and then dismiss it, expecting everyone else to agree with their assessment.
 

TheBrain

New Member
I'm curious as to why you call bringing actual evidence to the table "opinion"? Discarding the evidence is to have blinders on.

What 'evidence'? Sure in the case of the Cosmic Face you can find evidence that it is indeed a photoshop creation...

However in the case of the angelic appearing cloud, you have NO evidence that it isn't a sign from somewhere. All you have is an opinion that it is a coincidence.

You do understand the term "actual evidence', right?


I cannot prove that it IS a sign, but you cannot prove it isn't. So it is merely my opinion vs your opinion
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
What evidence is there that it's NOT more than that?

....

Research that shows how the brain works, how it can be tricked, patterns in perception. The fact that all those signs are perfectly expalinable with conventional cause and effect requiring no supernatural forces.

The idea that it is more than that implies a whole chain of events that there is no evidence for at all. (ie, an outside intelligence molding matter to make extremely vague shapes that *can* be interpreted as messages but are not very explicit and don't really say anything that isn't provided by the observer.)


...debunkers will never know if there is more to it or not...

This implies that those who believe this will know at some point that there is more to it.
When would that be and what form will that proof take?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
What evidence is there that it's NOT more than that?

That's not the way the world works. We don't think things because there's an absence of evidence demonstrating they don't exit. We think things because of evidence that they do.

Otherwise there's an infinite number of things you might believe in, like a race of stone cats living on Mars. There's no evidence that there's no such thing, so why not believe it?
 

solrey

Senior Member.
If it were simply 'pareidolia' people would see different things not all the same thing... like this award winning Dragon photo.

I looked at the pic in that post before I read it, I thought it was a seahorse, dragon didn't even cross my mind.

Here's a pic of an angel in a storm over Arizona, very similar to the FL "pope angel".



http://cloudappreciationsociety.org/gallery/photo-04578/

I didn’t notice the cloud characters until after I submitted the following pic to the Cloud Appreciation Society. I see three wizards to the left and a human/eagle skull to the lower right, amused by a snapping turtle nibbling at the left corner of the CZ arc while giving a high five to a dancing moai. Coincidentally this pic was taken shortly after my gf gave a lecture at a medicinal herb conference in our town. The spirits must have been pleased. ;)



http://cloudappreciationsociety.org/gallery/photo-07979/

And for the heck of it, a pic I took of a goose.



http://cloudappreciationsociety.org/gallery/photo-07718/

There are all kinds of clouds that look like things.
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
I just bet you mega debunkers are the real life at a party :p...t is not necessary to debunk everything
...So take a break from feeling that you need to debunk EVERYTHING and just enjoy the view from time to time and realized that you may not know everything ;)

You must admit, it requires quite a bit of hubris to presume to tell others how they ought to be.
(ironic hubris at that, if one straw mans others as thinking they "know everything," when they said no such thing, while [doubly-ironically] calling oneself "TheBrain.") :eek:

I've only been on this site a few months, but you're already about the 75th person I've seen pop in here,
tell people how much you know, tell people here to stop thinking they know so much, and when folks here politely point out that
you aren't proving a damn thing you say, you pull out the "You can't prove it ain't true" fallacy.
[Does no one out in the real world teach young folks the ignorantium fallacy any more? Why do we see it soooo damned often?]

Anyway, McBrain, do take a moment to reflect on the stone cats living on Mars...google ignorantium, and ponder the wisdom of
going to a debunking site to tell people they shouldn't be "pathological" (no...seriously...you said that?) about debunking nonsense.
Do you go to football forums and lecture people about their "pathological" enjoyment of the NFL?
Is telling people you don't know (or understand) how to live, really the way to strike a blow against know-it-all-ism?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole 'winged beauty' angel motif isn't remotely biblical, is it? Angels in the Bible are typically portrayed as being exceedingly strange in appearance, if not downright terrifying... the whole 'curvy white people with wings' was just a trend in artistic representation that caught on.
what would be the point of painting a self portrait of yourself if nobody recognized you. that would be just silliness (kinda like choosing toast as your medium...but who am I to judge)
 

Miles Bloomer

New Member
Pareidolia can do some strange things. The human mind has endured millions of years worth of evolution - it is only logical that the trait of recognizing ''faces'' in patterns would be proliferated in a primate community that boasts a large basis on socialization - though other patterns can appear what they are not, also. The human mind is very good at finding patterns in things that aren't there.

The clouds in the second image resemble dragons, the clouds in the third image resemble mayflies. They may resemble other things to other people. It's all down to perception. If you turn the first image ninety degrees, it resembles a concorde.


Further reading:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pareidolia
http://www.skepdic.com/pareidol.html
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
Not that I follow that book but doesn't Revelations tell us to watch for all kinds of signs in the heavens? Isn't every devote Christian out there watching for those signs that the rapture and the end of days is imminent? Didn't the Vatican get hit by lightning the day the Pope resigned?
Depends on what you mean by "devout." Some dyed-in-wool Catholics (the types who wear St. Peter's Cross because it's considered presumption beyond mortal station to wear Christ's Cross) read the last few passages of Revelation (the ones about taking and adding to scripture) to say that doing this is the greatest of all sins - the only one that dooms you not only to eternity in hell, but also to suffer every horror of the end times and witness none of the wonders.


And for the heck of it, a pic I took of a goose.

I'm really showing my nerd here, but I can't see anything but a class 2 shuttlecraft.
 

Leslie Gray

New Member
A client of mine saw this above his house a few weeks ago. I believe in signs from heaven and this one was posted to me the day after my sweet chinchilla was killed. I prayed that I would know he was safely delivered and that there would be some sort of sign to let me know he was in heaven. The very next day I seen this in my messages and I knew that that was my sign. He was the most beautiful and most loving creature and I miss him everyday.
 

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