Debunk . . . intuition can save your life or prevent considerable pain and suffering

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I was once pulled away from a store front by a strong feeling to move. . . I turned from a glass window when within seconds a truck came through the glass. . . shards sprayed all over the area. . . I should have been shredded but was never even cut . . . the driver and passenger was severely injured. . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
When is intuition and speculation fruitful?? A dilemma in a scientific age . . .

I know that intuition and speculation seem anathema some places ;however, to me a reasonable dose of speculation and intuition are essential for proper living . . . IMO a life devoid of following a hunch or an impulsive whim or informed guess is essential for happiness and in some cases even survival . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I was used as a disinterested third party investigator and inspector throughout my career . . . the funny thing is many times what turned out to be my most accurate and useful findings were not based solely on fact but a sense of, or intuition of, the state of reality. Maybe the brain simply weighs the preponderance of physical data observed and other experiences (which are sometimes below a conscious threshold) and crunches out the best approximation of reality without even consciously understanding how it was arrived.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I was once pulled away from a store front by a strong feeling to move. . . I turned from a glass window when within seconds a truck came through the glass. . . shards sprayed all over the area. . . I should have been shredded but was never even cut . . . the driver and passenger was severely injured. . .

The thing there though is that the traumatic event fixes and amplifies your memory. One moves away from things all the time, but the one time it happens to save you from injury is the one that you remember, then the memory grows.

Memory is not a recorder of events that you can replay exactly. Memories are constructed, and are subject to both change and creation.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Some people who play roulette think that their intuition helps them from time to time - they get a feeling to put money on one number or another. Your truck example is basically the same.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
The thing there though is that the traumatic event fixes and amplifies your memory. One moves away from things all the time, but the one time it happens to save you from injury is the one that you remember, then the memory grows.

Memory is not a recorder of events that you can replay exactly. Memories are constructed, and are subject to both change and creation.
Good explanation . . . however, take a look at this . . .
Here's an interesting article in the New York Times, entitled "In Battle, Hunches Prove to Be Valuable." The theme is how the neurosciences are beginning to take soldiers' intuitions seriously, and for very pragmatic reasons: "Everyone has hunches — about friends’ motives, about the stock market, about when to fold a hand of poker and when to hold it. But United States troops are now at the center of a large effort to understand how it is that in a life-or-death situation, some people’s brains can sense danger and act on it well before others’ do."
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2009/08/combat-intuition.html
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Good explanation . . . however, take a look at this . . .
Here's an interesting article in the New York Times, entitled "In Battle, Hunches Prove to Be Valuable." The theme is how the neurosciences are beginning to take soldiers' intuitions seriously, and for very pragmatic reasons: "Everyone has hunches — about friends’ motives, about the stock market, about when to fold a hand of poker and when to hold it. But United States troops are now at the center of a large effort to understand how it is that in a life-or-death situation, some people’s brains can sense danger and act on it well before others’ do."
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2009/08/combat-intuition.html
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But what they are talking about (in the NYT) is simply subconscious responses to actual physical perception. Nothing supernatural. Just "something is out of place" type feelings that you get when something is out of place.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Some people who play roulette think that their intuition helps them from time to time - they get a feeling to put money on one number or another. Your truck example is basically the same.

Take a look at this one . . . what do you think . . . ?
Intuition most likely has its origins in ancestral instincts for survival and adaptation. There is no way that our human ancestors could have survived without intuition. There could not have been much conscious thinking before speech evolved, some 250,000 years ago, yet Pithecanthropus erectus goes back some 4.5 minion years. Old Pith could not possibly have survived predators or such natural threats as the melting of the ice age without intuitive decisions-where to make a fire, when to store meat, when to move to the highlands. There was no time for thinking or laborious logic. Responses often had to be instantaneous. The sound of movement in the brush required an immediate reaction. Those who failed to respond were removed from the gene pool by voracious predators. For Old Pith, intuition was likely the only form of organized preverbal intelligence.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199305/the-anatomy-intuition
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
But what they are talking about (in the NYT) is simply subconscious responses to actual physical perception. Nothing supernatural. Just "something is out of place" type feelings that you get when something is out of place.
I never said intuition was supernatural . . . however, I didn't say we knew where the feeling or knowledge came from either . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I never said intuition was supernatural . . . however, I didn't say we knew where the feeling or knowledge came from either . . .

In fact, intuition could simply be an evolutionarily derived defensive and survival mechanism using offline resources to crunch tons of seemingly irrelevant environmental data points to arrive at conclusions only realized or come forward (as a feeling) when the full complement of conscious senses are fully engaged and preoccupied with survival . . . thus the perception of the conclusion was a feeling, a warning, a hunch . Why? Because the overall analysis was way too complex to bring the entire data set and analysis to consciousness because that would overload the organism ability to cope and render it into a state of confusion and paralysis.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
In fact, intuition could simply be an evolutionarily derived defensive and survival mechanism using offline resources to crunch tons of seemingly irrelevant environmental data points to arrive at conclusions only realized or come forward (as a feeling) when the full complement of conscious senses are fully engaged and preoccupied with survival . . . thus the perception of the conclusion was a feeling, a warning, a hunch . Why? Because the overall analysis was way too complex to bring the entire data set and analysis to consciousness because that would overload the organism ability to cope and render it into a state of confusion and paralysis.

Why may this be true . . .
Cognitive Load Theory and "Memory, of course, is at least as much a process of filtering as of remembering. "
"Another aspect of cognitive load theory involves understanding how many discrete units of information can be retained in short-term memory before information loss occurs. An example of this principle that seems to be commonly cited is the use of 7-digit phone numbers, based on the theory that most people can only retain seven "chunks" of information in their short-term memory." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load

" Look at the facts. We register, through our senses, 13 million bits of information every second. [1] Of those, we are consciously aware of one to three. Virtually every second of our waking life we take in a barrage of manmade information, mostly visual and aural: 34 gigabytes worth, [2] according to recent research at UC San Diego, equivalent to 100,000 words daily, or almost a quarter of Tolstoy's massive War and Peace
.
Yet our short-term memory can handle no more than (approximately) seven items at a time. Seven out of 100,000, seven out of those 13 million.
Memory, of course, is at least as much a process of filtering as of remembering. The trouble is, we are conditioned to want to retain and act on information. When our senses and consciousness are deluged with far more data than we evolved to deal with, we run into trouble."
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/s...rmation-overload-its-not-just-bloody-nuisance
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm unsure what your point is here. Obviously a lot (if not most) of mental processing goes on at the sub-conscious level. So equally obviously the sub-conscious detects things that are not directly considered by the conscious mind, and that filters upwards as feelings and "intuition".
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I'm unsure what your point is here. Obviously a lot (if not most) of mental processing goes on at the sub-conscious level. So equally obviously the sub-conscious detects things that are not directly considered by the conscious mind, and that filters upwards as feelings and "intuition".
So my point is intuition should not be ignored . . . it can save your life. . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
So my point is intuition should not be ignored . . . it can save your life. . . .
Not only that but it can change the world as much as can the scientific method. . .

Einstein On Creative Thinking: Music and the Intuitive Art of Scientific Imagination

Einstein explored time and space… in his musical hobbies.
Published on March 31, 2010 by Michele and Robert Root-Bernstein in Imagine That!


"For Einstein, insight did not come from logic or mathematics. It came, as it does for artists, from intuition and inspiration. As he told one friend, "When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come close to the conclusion that the gift of imagination has meant more to me than any talent for absorbing absolute knowledge." Elaborating, he added, "All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration.... At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason." Thus, his famous statement that, for creative work in science, "Imagination is more important than knowledge" (Calaprice, 2000, 22, 287, 10)."
:goaway:


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-and-the-intuitive-art-scientific-imagination
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
That intuition is somehow useful does not make your chemtrail theory any more correct :)
That is not the motivation for this Thread (Did your intuition tell you that? . . . LoL!) No, I think the investigation of how intuition evolved and how it is used everyday is fascinating. . . Mick. . . .how do you use intuition and how do you think it works? :)
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That is not the motivation for this Thread (Did your intuition tell you that? . . . LoL!) No, I think the investigation of how intuition evolved and how it is used everyday is fascinating. . . Mick. . . .how do you use intuition and how do you think it works? :)

I use intuition to form initial opinions on if someone is trolling. You can't put your finger on it, but you can tell that it "seems" like trolling.

I think it works because your brain has a mental model of what it perceives, and when something does not fit the current model, then you get a "feeling" that something is not right.

Because the human brain evolved from a creature that was often a prey animal, then evolutionary it makes a lot of sense to have a lot of false positives. It's not really dangerous to imagine you hear a wolf behind you, but it is very dangerous not to hear a wolf behind you.

You should not ignore your intuition, but that does not mean you should trust it. Pay attention to it, then check out what it is telling you. Just don't use it as an authority. Lots of things "seem" wrong, but are not.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
People remember their correct intuition more than their incorrect intuition. Women often have a "feeling" as to if they are having a boy or a girl. Basically this is a 50/50 guess, but how do they recollect it? Well, judging by a quick Google comparison, they are five times more likely to report a correct intuition than an incorrect one:



 
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I use intuition to form initial opinions on if someone is trolling. You can't put your finger on it, but you can tell that it "seems" like trolling.

I think it works because your brain has a mental model of what it perceives, and when something does not fit the current model, then you get a "feeling" that something is not right.

Because the human brain evolved from a creature that was often a prey animal, then evolutionary it makes a lot of sense to have a lot of false positives. It's not really dangerous to imagine you hear a wolf behind you, but it is very dangerous not to hear a wolf behind you.

You should not ignore your intuition, but that does not mean you should trust it. Pay attention to it, then check out what it is telling you. Just don't use it as an authority. Lots of things "seem" wrong, but are not.
That's good. . . I thought you would PooPoo the whole concept . . . to me the real question is when should one rely on it instead of contrary information . . . like in the original Post . . . had I not moved . . . I might not be here . . . I was engaged in cleaning the area and my feeling persuaded me to move. . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That's good. . . I thought you would PooPoo the whole concept . . . to me the real question is when should one rely on it instead of contrary information . . . like in the original Post . . . had I not moved . . . I might not be here . . . I was engaged in cleaning the area and my feeling persuaded me to move. . . .

But how many times have you moved for no apparent reason, but nothing happened, so you just don't remember.

How many time did you NOT move, and something hit you?

People often back-rationalize their actions and decisions. When asked to explain why they did something, they will create a reason.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Many dog breeders develop an intuition about puppies getting sick. They will take a puppy into the vet and the vet can not find any problem, but the puppy will develop an illness within hours. Bugs the devil out of your vet. We used to discuss this and we decided that we handled the puppies a lot and we could pick up on slight differences in the way they moved or cried, that were not normal.

Sort of like reading body language. I am no good at reading body language, but I am fairly good at reading 'body language' in what some one types.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
But how many times have you moved for no apparent reason, but nothing happened, so you just don't remember.

How many time did you NOT move, and something hit you?

People often back-rationalize their actions and decisions. When asked to explain why they did something, they will create a reason.
As I said that is an explanation . . . however, how do you explain the brilliant insight described by Einstein and others?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Many dog breeders develop an intuition about puppies getting sick. They will take a puppy into the vet and the vet can not find any problem, but the puppy will develop an illness within hours. Bugs the devil out of your vet. We used to discuss this and we decided that we handled the puppies a lot and we could pick up on slight differences in the way they moved or cried, that were not normal.

Sort of like reading body language. I am no good at reading body language, but I am fairly good at reading 'body language' in what some one types.
Could be an extra sensory ability. . . as ELF waves that are subliminal for the most part. . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
We may have vestigial senses and abilities . . .

The Science of Intuition: An Eye-Opening Guide to Your Sixth Sense

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Scientific-Facts-About-Intuition-Developing-Intuition#ixzz2N5ormsno


Tune In: "We all process things that we're not consciously aware of—it's a feeling of knowing that uses an older brain structure," says neuroscientist Beatrice de Gelder, PhD, who researches blindsight. But because we're so dependent on our sense of sight, she says, we're not used to trusting our intuitive vision track. "If you find yourself in a situation that's making you feel nervous, you may have spotted a reason for concern without even knowing it," says Hirsch. "Pay attention to the sensation."


Read more: http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Scientific-Facts-About-Intuition-Developing-Intuition#ixzz2N5oMmxsy
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Mick West

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As I said that is an explanation . . . however, how do you explain the brilliant insight described by Einstein and others?

That's very different from sensing a truck is about to hit you for audio and visual cues (or from a created memory of an urge to move).

Einstein is talking about science, and coming up with hypotheses. How else would you describe that other than intuition?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
That's very different from sensing a truck is about to hit you for audio and visual cues (or from a created memory of an urge to move).

Einstein is talking about science, and coming up with hypotheses. How else would you describe that other than intuition?
How would you explain anything you don't understand . . .? It cannot be measured, predicted or easily described or defined. . . much like life in general or emotions, beliefs, and so forth. . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
How would you explain anything you don't understand . . .? It cannot be measured, predicted or easily described or defined. . . much like life in general or emotions, beliefs, and so forth. . . .
Seems there are at least two types of intuition. . . both are rather immediate but one is in crisis situations (move now or die) and the other is after intellectual inquiry. . . .


We close with 2 quotes from Einstein and his views on intuition and discovery. Remember Einstein was very aware and appreciative of the work of others as the foundation of his work. Yet, when it came to discovering something truly new and innovative, Einstein said:


"The only real valuable thing is intuition."


"The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it Intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why".


http://www.p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue19/Physics_19.htm
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lotek

Active Member
probably....


it just happens to apply to almost everything on this website... i know i post it a lot but it REALLY does apply here. i said sticky, as in im not gunna get into it past what i said because i doubt there is any valid study conducted on this, and if there is, it will probably be misquoted in an optimistic manner.

am i here to say we dont notice things without thinking about them cognitively? no. but im not gunna get into it because i feel it to iffy a subject matter. kinda like talking about unified field theory without being a physicist.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
I'm with Mick here. How many times does ANYONE say "I had a feeling but I was wrong!" How many scientific theories haven't panned out? How any gambles taken in battle ended up a disaster? (Yoo Hoo, Col. Custer, you forgot your Gatling Guns.....oh and don't attack that village down there just because you figure it worked once....) Fascinating discussion over a few beers.....
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I'm with Mick here. How many times does ANYONE say "I had a feeling but I was wrong!" How many scientific theories haven't panned out? How any gambles taken in battle ended up a disaster? (Yoo Hoo, Col. Custer, you forgot your Gatling Guns.....oh and don't attack that village down there just because you figure it worked once....) Fascinating discussion over a few beers.....
Hmmm . . . you seem to be saying intuition is not much better than deductive logic and the scientific method a 50/50 proposition . . . LoL!!!
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Hmmm . . . you seem to be saying intuition is not much better than deductive logic and the scientific method a 50/50 proposition . . . LoL!!!
it's kinda like life: Win some, lose some, get rained out a few. We mostly remember the wins.
 

lotek

Active Member
"the scientific method a 50/50 proposition"

What?

im kinda confused tho i may be reading both your comments wrong there.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I think intuition is strongly based on sensory information that is normally filtered from conscious awareness . . .

Type 2 blindsight occurs when patients claim to have a feeling that there has been a change within their blind area, for example, movement, but that it was not a visual percept.[2] This phenomenon challenges what we once believed to be true, that perceptions must enter consciousness to affect our behavior. Blindsight proves that our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we are completely unaware. (Carlson, 2010) It may be thought of as a converse of the form of anosognosia known as Anton–Babinski syndrome, in which there is full cortical blindness along with the confabulation of visual experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuNDkcbq8PY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/navy-program-to-study-how-troops-use-intuition/

U.S. Navy Program to Study How Troops Use Intuition

By CHANNING JOSEPH The United States Navy has started a program to investigate how members of the military can be trained to improve their “sixth sense,” or intuitive ability, during combat and other missions.
The idea for the project comes in large part from the testimony of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who have reported an unexplained feeling of danger just before they encountered an enemy attack or ran into an improvised explosive device, Navy scientists said. click on link above for more.

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Of course it could be a "men who stare at goats" kind of thing.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Some Poll results . . .




Has intuition saved your life or prevented considerable pain and suffering. . .?



5) Yes. . . Intuition is based on at least two of the above (#2, #3 and # 4) 35.0% (21)
1) Yes . . . Please specify by posting details 26.7% (16)
2) Yes . . . Intuition is based on personally obtained conscious and primarily subconscious (subliminal) knowledge 15.0% (9)
3) Yes. . . Intuition is based on subconscious information transmitted to you by external sources. . . Paranormal 10.0% (6)
4) Yes. . .Intuition is based on a subconscious weighting and sifting process of data observed but not acknowledged 5.0% (3)
9) No. . . Intuition is no more than a good guess and luck 3.3% (2)
6) Maybe . . . Please specify by posting details 1.7% (1)
7) Don't Know . . . 1.7% (1)
8) No . . . Intuition is pure bunk. . . . 1.7% (1)
Blank (View Results) (21)


Non-Blank Votes: 60


Has intuition saved your life or prevented considerable pain and suffering. . .?


1) Yes . . . Please specify by posting details
2) Yes . . . Intuition is based on personally obtained conscious and primarily subconscious (subliminal) knowledge
3) Yes. . . Intuition is based on subconscious information transmitted to you by external sources. . . Paranormal
4) Yes. . .Intuition is based on a subconscious weighting and sifting process of data observed but not acknowledged
5) Yes. . . Intuition is based on at least two of the above (#2, #3 & # 4)
6) Maybe . . . Please specify by posting details
7) Don't Know
8) No . . . Intuition is pure bunk. . . .
9) No. . . Intuition is no more than a good guess and luck
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2162210/pg1
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