Cold Fusion: This time.... independently verified.

Critical Thinker

Senior Member
Cold Fusion: This time....... independently verified.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/156393-cold-fusion-reactor-independently-verified-has-10000-times-the-energy-density-of-gas

 

Grieves

Senior Member
Interesting, interesting stuff. If it turns out to be legit, I hope he doesn't go and sell the thing to the highest bidder, as we'd probably not hear about it again for 15 years or so.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
They claim they put in 33 kWh and got out 62 kWH (described as net, so possibly 95kWh total).

So really it only needs a margine or error of a factor of 2 or 3 for it to not work.

The immediate problem I see is that while you can measure the input power very accurately (electrical usage), the output power is calculated via observing things like thermal radiation with an infrared camera, and with a variety of assumptions and calculations thrown in. Lots of room for error.

Still, I'm all for cheap clean power, so I hope it works.
 

solrey

Senior Member
I wouldn't exactly call it "independently verified" considering at least two of the "independent" scientists, Giuseppe Levi and Hanno Essen have been involved in previous "tests" with Rossi for the past couple of years, at least.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LeviGreportonhe.pdf

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/12/27/kullander-and-essens-unscientific-behavior-on-swedish-television/

Some more info about Rossi and E-Cat from New Energy Times:

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/05/21/rossi-manipulates-academics-to-create-illusion-of-independent-test/

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Andrea-Rossi-Energy-Catalyzer-Investigation-Index.shtml

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/12/27/kullander-and-essens-unscientific-behavior-on-swedish-television/

It would be great if it were true, but it smells like a total scam to me.
 

RolandD

Active Member
Yeah, this is something that would change every aspect of life as we know it. If it works they way it is purported, they would file their patents across the globe, allow others to build and test, and collect their Noble prize. No reason to be secretive.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
Is this the same as the sustained free-standing plasma generation thing? It showed up in a facebook post but I can't find it to get more details.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
They claim they put in 33 kWh and got out 62 kWH (described as net, so possibly 95kWh total).

So really it only needs a margine or error of a factor of 2 or 3 for it to not work.

The immediate problem I see is that while you can measure the input power very accurately (electrical usage), the output power is calculated via observing things like thermal radiation with an infrared camera, and with a variety of assumptions and calculations thrown in. Lots of room for error.

Still, I'm all for cheap clean power, so I hope it works.
Indeed - you'd think that measuring the change in temperature of a cooling liquid flowing over it would be a more reliable means of determining it's power output - you could use the energy in the cooling flow to generate electricity as a further demo - it would be a very powerful statement and the guy would be an instant household name and gazillionaire!

As it is he look like a scam artist hiding his trick.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
I guess it's not the same thing...
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Tech_Breakthrough:_Will_Open_Air_Plasma_Pave_the_Way_for_Practical_Fusion_Energy?/25484/0/38/38/Y/M.html
 

Hevach

Senior Member
I'm bothered that they didn't control for the tricks Rossi has used before and have not tested the reaction products. Basically defeats the point of independent testing if you run it like one of Rossi's stacked deck demonstrations.

I'm assuming this will end up like the "impossible" thrusters NASA tested, initial proof of concept was flawed and every controlled test has produced zero thrust.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for the link. I have downloaded the PDF and will have a proper read of it later.

Rossi and Levi don't seem very trustworthy to me though, and that is an understatement! I don't consider anything carried out by Levi to be an "independent assessment" at all.

Here's a nice summary of why E-cat has all the hallmarks of a scam: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Andrea-Rossi-Energy-Catalyzer-Investigation-Index.shtml

(Already posted above, I see)
 

NoParty

Senior Member
I still see little reason to take this seriously.

Nothing is really proven, there's that pesky veil of secrecy again, and Rossi is "a convicted scam artist"
(in the words of Popular Science)

And now, a year and a half later, there's still no real evidence of the scientific community being impressed.

Steve Featherstone did a detailed exhaustive look at this back in 2012 for Popular Science (linked below)

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box



http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Andrea-Rossi-Energy-Catalyzer-Investigation-Index.shtml

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
 

Thomas

Member
Andrea Rossi 'invented' another device turning waste into oil in the seventees. Turned out he just dumped the waste and government could fork out 40 million to clean up the enviroment. He has been in jail for several years because of that scam. Also he had other 'inventions' with claims he could not substantiate.

To me this is just like his other scams, but without the waste. He just perfected his scam, scamming investors out of their money....he has done that all of his life really.
 
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Graham2001

Active Member
Sadly Rossi's claims spread not just through the usual sources, I found this post on a Traveller RPG website, Ive quoted the opening to give some flavour of just what was being said. Link to the full post is below the quote.

http://www.donotlink.com/c1f7
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
 

txt29

Active Member
The recent new Steorn scam reminded me of Rossi. More than a year after the discussed "independent verification" document was published, Rossi still did not offer any public demonstration or a conclusive evidence of his claims. Again and again he always finds a new way how to escape from previous unfulfilled claims, setting new attractive targets and regenerating hope among his fans and investors. Strangely they do not mind he lied them many times before, and are always happy there is a new event to be looking forward to, just a few months ahead. The new target is usually set to be achieved in about one year, giving so enough time to Rossi to grab more investment money, and for enjoying his millions.

Strangely, the fans and investors do not mind Rossi claimed already some 8 years ago that a robotic factory in the USA was already producing thousands of the domestic eCats, that he sold several 1MW plants in the years that followed. First it was the low temperature eCat container (I believe he claimed two sales to secret military customers), then the high-temperature Hot Cat. All of them got immediately forgotten in the moment Rossi came with a new even more exciting claim.

So currently he is allegedly testing a 1MW Hot Cat plant at an undisclosed customer who is "very satisfied" with it (how else, of course). The test, planned for 12 months, is going on since already almost 10 months. Already enough to "prove" he has a working technology and to gain more investment money. However, Rossi told he won't consider the test successful even if the plant fails just a day before the planned day.

This instructs us how it will continue: most probably the HotCat plant will fail just a few days (perhaps a week or two) before the target. Likely it will happen just due to some mechanical problems, so Rossi will then need 6-12 months for R&D and for finding more reliable components. Then again another year for a long-run test.

It may continue indefinitely in this way, but since Rossi is already 65 years, he will likely sell his shares in the company, and quietly retire in a near future, letting the investors alone with his vaporware.
 

Gridlock

Active Member
Meanwhile, boring old hot fusion creeps closer;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35074848

 

txt29

Active Member
Well, we can read about achieving new milestones in hot fusion since the 50's of the last century and still a working fusion reactor seams to be further and further away in future (from estimates of 10-20 years in future in 50's to perhaps 50 years in future now). The last great hot-fusion news I remember, dates from the last year from the USA:
http://www.gizmag.com/fusion-breakthrough/30814/

So from this point of view, the methods applied by popular science magazines for hot fusion are not dissimilar from those of cold fusion con artists (indefinitely generating new hope by regularly publishing great news and announcing previsible success in near future). The difference is at least that hot fusion is well understood and backed with a verifiable theory.

The term Cold Fusion, originally described by Pons and Fleischmann in 1989 was actually abandoned and currently those searchers who still did not abandon the idea speak about LENR (low-energy nuclear reactions). Some anomalies were already observed by numerous teams, not only by the original team of Pons & Fleischmann. The problem is that first of all there is still no solid and undisputed theory explaining the effect, and then that LENR/cold fusion is a favorite tool for con artists like Rossi, Defklaion and others. Although some universities and scientists continue to pursuit the research and try finding out what is behind the anomalies, LENR is generally (and rightly) looked at with a great suspicion. Financing some research is difficult - public funds cannot be used (much was already wasted on it in 90's with only negative results), and private investors prefer giving their money to apparent crooks like Rossi & Co.
 

txt29

Active Member
Exactly as I previewed a few weeks ago (see my post #17 above), it looks like my prognosis is coming to the fulfillment. I told that shortly before the end date of the 12 months test at the end of february, the alleged Rossi's 1MW plant at an alleged and secret customer will fail, forcing him to start a new "R&D" (translate "scam") cycle.

The e-catworld just posted that Rossi reports serious problems:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/01/29/1-mw-e-cat-plant-watch-thread-update-1-rossi-production-cost-in-kw-is-very-competitive/

UPDATE #35 (Jan 29, 2015)

From a couple of new comments from Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, it sounds like things are not going too well with the 1 MW plant.

Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 10:12 AM
René Bergeron:
at 10.10 a.m. of Friday Jan 29 2016:
1 MW E-Cat : troublesome, lowest efficiency, working on it. Not a good night, honestly.
E-Cat X: remade another to continue destructive tests
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Elise:
Please, understand that to put in the markes an immature product in our case could be devastating.
There is nobody in the world that more than me desires to put massively the E-Cat in the market, but we are not ready. Too bad about sceptics.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
 

txt29

Active Member
It looks like Rossi is only testing the reactions. For now he recalled the failure, telling the problems are resolved. So we'll have to wait for the next round:
Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 1:29 PM
Frank Acland:
It is over. Trouble resolved thanks to our great Team!
Warm Regards
A.R.
 
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