Claims that "Antifa" was responsible for the Capitol Riot

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This video is being widely shared as evidence of Antifa.
Source: https://twitter.com/emmbeliever/status/1347010602078756864


It shows a man dressed in black, with a Trump sticker on his helmet, hitting the window with what looks like a short bat. 2021-01-07_08-49-18.jpg

Thew woman filming is shouting "Antifa". A man in a red hat pushes forward and grabs the man in black. There is a scuffle, and some cheering.

It's notable though that the tens of people around the window-hitter were not trying to stop him, but were standing right there, calmly filming him, and then they try to pull away the red-hat guy.

Given that the outcome of the Storming of the Capitol was pretty bad for Trump in most regards, it's obvious that people will try to suggest that real Trump supporters would not have done it.

I think the reality is that there were lots of different types of Trump supporter there. Many of the protestors had zero intention of causing any harm to federal property, much less invading the capitol building. However there were also groups there who had announced their intent to do just that before the event, and clearly QAnon supporters have no such qualms.

Of course it's also not impossible that some anti-Trump folk might have attempted to stir things up to attempt to discredit the pro-Trump people. But as yet, I don't really see the evidence that this happened.
 

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Akton

New Member
The so called "hammer and sickle" tattoo is very likely to be the tattoo from the video game "Dishonored", where the main character gets a tattoo with this design on it from an otherworldly being that gives him special powers. Many people have gotten tattoos that mimic it (I even remember as a teenager thinking it would be cool to get a tattoo of it :oops:)

2021-01-07_16-49-24.jpg
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Besides the "Antifa" people being subsequently identified as not-Antifa, a worthwhile counterpoint to the argument is that there were many people overtly pushing for a storming of the Capitol who were the antithesis of antifa, like Rick Saccone.

Article:
On Wed., Jan. 6, Saccone posted a video on Facebook from Washington, D.C., encouraging the crowd to storm the Capitol to “run out all the evil people” and RINOs (Republicans in name only) who don’t wholeheartedly support Trump’s lies about the election being stolen.


2021-01-07_10-16-50.jpg
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Source: https://imgur.com/gallery/8WV0RuG




Source: https://twitter.com/WontSurvive4mor/status/1347093860690898944?s=19

Article:
Last Saturday, Richard Barnett of Gravette, Ark., criticized Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in a Facebook post for using the description “white nationalist” as a “derogatory term.”
“I am white. There is no denying that. I am a nationalist. I put my nation first. So that makes me a white nationalist,” Barnett wrote on page he maintained under a pseudonym, before adding that people who were not nationalists should “get the f--- out of our nation.”

Just four days later, Barnett was photographed sitting with his feet up on a desk in Pelosi’s office at the U.S. Capitol — an image that quickly became emblematic of the chaotic storming of the complex by a pro-Trump mob.





Article:
A newly-elected member of West Virginia’s House of Delegates was among the mob who stormed the U.S. Capitol today.

Derrick Evans, R-Wayne, livestreamed and then deleted videos from inside the Capitol, but others took screenshots and videos of the original videos.

In one, he is shoots cell phone video out into the Capitol interior while surging through a door. He says, “We’re in! We’re in! Derrick Evans is in the Capitol!”
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Article:
As Capitol Police struggled to clear the congressional complex on Wednesday evening, Times reporter Rowan Scarborough published a story claiming that obscure facial recognition company XRVision had proof that some of the rioters were in fact left-wing antifa agitators, including one “Stalinist sympathizer.”

“Facial recognition firm claims Antifa infiltrated Trump protesters who stormed Capitol,” the headline on the story read.

Scarborough’s article was based entirely on an interview with an anonymous “retired military officer” who claimed to have seen XRVision data that proved two of the rioters were members of “Philadelphia Antifa.” The story didn’t include any pictures of the supposed antifa infiltrators or other evidence.

....

But XRVision, the company at the center of the story, says the Times story is totally made up. In a statement provided by the company’s attorney, XRVision said its facial recognition software had in fact identified two neo-Nazis and a QAnon supporter.

“We concluded that two of [the] individuals (Jason Tankersley and Matthew Heimbach), were affiliated with the Maryland Skinheads and the National Socialist Movements,” the statement reads. “These two are known Nazi organizations, they are not Antifa. The third individual identified (Jake Angeli) was an actor with some QAnon promotion history. Again, no Antifa identification was made for him either.”
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Some of them were just "normal" people who didn't think about the consequences of "storming the Capitol".
Very much so. Even many in the vanguard seem disconnected from reality, goofing around, taking selfies, and streaming video. No attempt to hide their faces while destroying federal property (which, as Trump noted in a different context, has a maximum 10 year sentence)

Either they thought they were on the right side of history (and would be forgiven), or they were clueless. Either way, it's going to catch up with a lot of them very quickly.
Source: https://twitter.com/DCPoliceDept/status/1347223315765727232?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Either they thought they were on the right side of history (and would be forgiven), or they were clueless.
Believing that this is finally that "storm" that QAnon has promised them for so long, is probably a bit of both?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Either way, it's going to catch up with a lot of them very quickly.
Article:

Persons and Vehicles of Interest​

The Metropolitan Police Department has obtained photo and video footage of numerous individuals committing criminal acts in Washington, DC. Anyone who can identify these individuals or who has knowledge of any of these incidents should take no action but call police at (202) 727-9099 or text your tip to the Department's TEXT TIP LINE at 50411.

The MPD currently offers a reward of up to $1,000 to anyone who provides information that leads to the arrest and indictment of the person or persons responsible for a crime committed in the District of Columbia.

They have a 26-page PDF with photographs on that page.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here's an actual antifa-type person who was on the front lines at some points.

Article:
John Sullivan is the founder of the civil rights group Insurgence USA and does not align politically with President Donald Trump, but has been in D.C. this week for several planned protests including Wednesday’s rally at the Capitol.
...
“Protesters weren’t really, like, trying to burn anything down, they weren’t really trying to break anything, their main motive was to make it into the chambers,” Sullivan said.

And in that process, one woman was shot and killed, and Sullivan was standing right next to her when it happened.

“I remember looking into her eyes and seeing the lifelessness and understanding that she was dead,” he said.


He does not seem to have been pretending to be anyone, or encouraging anything. His presence doesn't demonstrate he was some kind of driving force, but it's certainly being presented as such.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Could the Jason Tankersley claim be a case of mistaken identity?
-- QAnon social media say yellow-shirt-guy is the dude from the antifa website
-- antifa website says the dude on their site is Tankersley, a nazi

So, sure, if that's a mistaken identity, the QAnonists have made a double mistake instead of just a simple one.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Could the Jason Tankersley claim be a case of mistaken identity?
i was gonna say his moustache shape is really different, but figured everyone would think i was crazy

but with hand tattoos you have to be careful because often the photo or video is flipped online for reason.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
In the original OP, Sarah Palin was asking for better " reporting" to attain more correct facts.
It might be ironic that her report only adds more rumours, and also adds these rumours to create a "new news story".
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
My take on why these "antifa" claims surface is just the same kind of immoral self-justification that extremists like to engage in.

Step 1: Claim that "the other side" is doing awful things (no evidence needed)
Step 2: Do things that are slightly less awful, but feel good about it

You need a scape goat. Populists have always needed scape goats. In Orwell's 1984, it's the continent they happen to be at war with which is responsible for everything the government doesn't want to be held responsible for. For Hitler (and others before and after him), it was the Jews. For Lenin, it was the intelligentsia.

If these Trumpists really thought that storming the capitol was bad, and anyone who did that had to be an agent provocateur, they would ostracize everyone who claimed to have been in there. But they're not doing that. They're proud of having been in there; but they don't want to be blamed for it. That's all it is, finding a scape goat. "Timmy hit me first."

It's not about facts. It's never about facts. It's about feelings.
 
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TEEJ

Senior Member.
Lot of claims within the conspiracy community regarding Jake Angeli (Viking Guy) just because he is listed as an actor. They seem to believe that he is a false flag actor for hire.

Angeli certainly is a Trump supporter.



 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
Here's an actual antifa-type person who was on the front lines at some points.

Article:
John Sullivan is the founder of the civil rights group Insurgence USA and does not align politically with President Donald Trump, but has been in D.C. this week for several planned protests including Wednesday’s rally at the Capitol.
...
“Protesters weren’t really, like, trying to burn anything down, they weren’t really trying to break anything, their main motive was to make it into the chambers,” Sullivan said.

And in that process, one woman was shot and killed, and Sullivan was standing right next to her when it happened.

“I remember looking into her eyes and seeing the lifelessness and understanding that she was dead,” he said.


He does not seem to have been pretending to be anyone, or encouraging anything. His presence doesn't demonstrate he was some kind of driving force, but it's certainly being presented as such.

I saw his interview on Anderson Cooper CNN last night. Portion of a video interview. It appears he gave interviews to different media outlets.

 

Akton

New Member
I saw his interview on Anderson Cooper CNN last night. Portion of a video interview. It appears he gave interviews to different media outlets.


Sounds like (according to his account) he was actually trying to deescalate the situation, contrary to the narrative that he was some kind of provocateur.
 

Arugula

Member
People have pointed out that Elizabeth seems to be holding an onion in her towel.

My guess would be it's an ice cube, given that the towel is wet and her eyes would feel like they're burning. I'm sure there was no shortage of people with coolers. It's also possible someone suggested an onion as a home remedy to counteract the pepper spray and she got one from a food truck or hot dog vendor on the Mall.

Anyone who tries to use this as truther evidence is probably ignoring the videos of police (and some protesters too) using pepper spray and tear gas to disperse people.

Source: https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1346948866868977672?s=20
 

Arugula

Member
I think it's going to be hard to convince people this this was done by Antifa, because a lot of these people were live streaming or posting pictures on social media bragging about it, not really realizing they were incriminating themselves. Even up until Donald Trump's video today (Thursday), more than 24 hours later, there was no reason for them to believe Trump himself didn't sanction their actions after he promoted the event, attended it, and encouraged people on Twitter while it was going on (while also telling them to go home, in a rhetorical double-bind).

Source: https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1347334743323394048?s=20


Source: https://twitter.com/AllMattNYT/status/1346962889115103232



Edit: I think this Buzzfeed op-ed captures this phenomenon. Saying this stunt as done by "outsiders" or "antifa" contradicts the reason a lot of these people seemed to participate in it anyway - which was for some kind of clout in online communities:

A coup with no plot, no end to achieve, no plan but to pose. Thousands invaded the highest centers of power, and the first thing they did was take selfies and videos. They were making content as spoils to take back to the digital empires where they dwell, where that content is currency.
...
Wednesday’s events are frequently described as “shocking.” That elected officials and media commentators didn’t see this coming is a reflection of a deeper crisis — after all, the rioters planned all of this online, in full view of everyone. As Charlie Warzel lays out in the New York Times, the mob’s escalation is par for the course for people watching the pro-Trump and extreme-right universes. Very little of yesterday’s events were a surprise, coming from people that Warzel describes as “cocooned in Facebook groups and fed a steady diet of lies from election-denial outlets like Newsmax and One America News.”

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/elaminabdelmahmoud/trump-mob-social-media-insurrection
 
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FatPhil

New Member
@Mendel - one mustn't forget that wolves can blend in with crowds of sheeple, so it's not an impossibility that the DC crowd en masse, as addressed by Trump, could be of one demographic, yet there be a completely different minority on a covert mission with a different end goal. The thing that blows that narrative out of the water is that the *evidence* clearly shows the more insurrectionist mission was perpetrated by members of the sheeple group.

As the tweets you copy (thanks!) indicate, watching the sheeple-aligned have to flip-flop on who they blame is most amusing. However, the lengths that some of them seem willing to go to - in particular the chopping of the "Q sent me" photo right above "Q sent me" - in order to, lets not mince words, lie and deceive, whilst is also in part amusing, it is also very worrying.

Timely and accurate debunking is at least as important as it's ever been. This time it's not just harmless cranks, it's people with real world influence.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
However, the lengths that some of them seem willing to go to - in particular the chopping of the "Q sent me" photo right above "Q sent me" - in order to, lets not mince words, lie and deceive, whilst is also in part amusing, it is also very worrying.
"The ends justify the means". Utilitarianism at its worst.
 
People have pointed out that Elizabeth seems to be holding an onion in her towel.
haha I thought that was only in comic books or in 1920s films. People really dont do this .... or do they? I dont believe its an onion, but if it is, that is the funniest thing I've seen for a long time.
On a more serious note

OK we have some people trying to spin this as antifa, even though theres a few proven high profile trump followers in the photos.
Now if its antifa, are they also saying that it was trumpters (I think thats the term) that actually were the ones causing the antifa disturbances months back or does the force only flow one way
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
prenote: these words were issued by Buzzfeed, not Arugula. I cant change the name in quotes like we used to be able.

and the first thing they did was take selfies and videos. They were making content as spoils to take back to the digital empires where they dwell, where that content is currency.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/elaminabdelmahmoud/trump-mob-social-media-insurrection


That's the first thing they did when the woman was shot too. They will say they were documenting, but you don't need to hinder rescue efforts to have 20 people filming. There were 1 or 2 right up close filming to document. I'm not linking the video as it is too graphic. Not just her succumbing but what made me literally cry was the police begging the loud mob of men to get back, so they could attend to her.


In full view of everyone? If you drive too many people "underground" over every triviality of thought that social media giants don't agree with, it quite literally becomes not in full view of everyone.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
one mustn't forget that wolves can blend in with crowds of sheeple, so it's not an impossibility that the DC crowd en masse, as addressed by Trump, could be of one demographic, yet there be a completely different minority on a covert mission with a different end goal. The thing that blows that narrative out of the water is that the *evidence* clearly shows the more insurrectionist mission was perpetrated by members of the sheeple group.
There were multiple demographics there. Mostly just rank-and-file MAGA types. But also a variety of militia, deep QAnon, and individuals of various stripes. There were also (in very small numbers) people who were more like BLM supporters, Mainstream TV reporters (ITV News, a major UK news channel, was inside), and independent media (Infowars, who asked people to buy things from the Infowars store before climbing through the window).

People simply being there does not mean they were prime movers. You'd have to establish what they did.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Now if its antifa, are they also saying that it was trumpters (I think thats the term) that actually were the ones causing the antifa disturbances months back or does the force only flow one way
Oh, there's evidence for that--, well, not necessarily for "cause", but for "contribute":
Article:
  • During protests of another police shooting in which James Blake was shot seven times in the back in Kenosha, Wis., in late August, 17-year-old Trump supporter Kyle Rittenhouse reportedly killed two BLM protesters.
  • In June, two members of the far-right “boogaloo boys,” whose members wear Hawaiian shirts while reportedly plotting a civil war, were arrested on rioting charges during a protest in Columbia, S.C. One was a paramedic who was subsequently fired.
  • In late May, Matthew Lee Rupert of Galesburg, Ill, reportedly filmed himself setting a Minneapolis building on fire and taking some items from a store. He made social media posts in support of Trump and against police.
  • Also in late May, three suspected boogaloo members who plotted to cause violence at protests in Las Vegas were arrested. Trump AG Bill Barr declined to address in a news conference June 4.

There are indications that these events are not just impromptu actions, but part of a loosely coordinated campaign by far-right groups. Media reports have documented that a white supremacist channel on the messaging app Telegram encouraged followers to commit violence during George Floyd protests, according to an internal Department of Homeland Security intelligence note.

A Twitter account claiming to be from Antifa that advocated violence was actually run by the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to an NBC report.


Article:

AP finds most arrested in protests aren't leftist radicals​

Some of those facing charges undoubtedly share far-left and anti-government views. Far-right protesters also have been arrested and charged. Some defendants have driven to protests from out of state. Some have criminal records and were illegally carrying weapons. Others are accused of using the protests as an opportunity to steal or create havoc.

But many have had no previous run-ins with the law and no apparent ties to antifa, the umbrella term for leftist militant groups that Trump has said he wants to declare a terrorist organization.
 

FatPhil

New Member
There were multiple demographics there. Mostly just rank-and-file MAGA types. But also a variety of militia, deep QAnon, and individuals of various stripes. There were also (in very small numbers) people who were more like BLM supporters, Mainstream TV reporters (ITV News, a major UK news channel, was inside), and independent media (Infowars, who asked people to buy things from the Infowars store before climbing through the window).

People simply being there does not mean they were prime movers. You'd have to establish what they did.

Yes, I misspoke, or wasn't precise enough. I was viewing the sheeple group to be all those on the Trumpist side, which as you say is multifaceted (and yes, there were hangers on too).
s/perpetrated by members of the sheeple group/perpetrated by people on the same putative "side" as the sheeple group/
 

FatPhil

New Member
"The ends justify the means". Utilitarianism at its worst.

I'm all taken aback now, as I do consider myself fairly utilitarian. Clearly I evaluate the costs of lying and creating an environment where nothing can be trusted to be orders of magnitude worse, perhaps infinitely worse, than those behind the above photoshopping.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
I'm all taken aback now, as I do consider myself fairly utilitarian. Clearly I evaluate the costs of lying and creating an environment where nothing can be trusted to be orders of magnitude worse, perhaps infinitely worse, than those behind the above photoshopping.
I have an essay on utilitarianism (vs Kant) in my head, which I may eventually write down and post to the chitchat forum. Meanwhile, if you're interested, PM me?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Some protesters will protest most things.....just to protest.
They do not like authority globally, and specifically do not choose sides.
They choose to hate the "establishment"... and the rules surrounding them.

(anti-authority theorists.)
Anarchists?

I don't think they'd want to be associated with Trumpers in any way.
 

FatPhil

New Member
I have an essay on utilitarianism (vs Kant) in my head, which I may eventually write down and post to the chitchat forum. Meanwhile, if you're interested, PM me?

Is there an 'off-topic-ish' forum where a thread could be started. I'd almost certainly learn 3 times what I could contribute, so why not share the wisdom in the open for all to benefit?
 

JMartJr

Member
He does not seem to have been pretending to be anyone, or encouraging anything. His presence doesn't demonstrate he was some kind of driving force, but it's certainly being presented as such.
Might be an lesson there -- while there may be valid "bearing witness" reasons to be in the middle of the other side's protest (or, as it may happen, riot) the downside is that you give them a chance to say "See, it was THEM, they did the bad stuff, not us!"

Offered as food for thought on the chance that anybody reading this is into attending protests/riots of whichever side is the other side to them.
 
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