Claim: "Your birth certificate is worth millions"

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derrick06

Active Member
So this is a claim I recently found in a video on FB that has spread quite a bit lately created by a gentleman named Jordan Maxwell. In the video he attempts to compare Admiralty Law (The practice of using shipping manifests for ships coming into harbor) with the Practice of birth certificates.

https://www.facebook.com/WakeUpNewss/videos/464756160316222/
(The link to the video is here for reference as the source of the claim.)


He claims that your birth certificate in the US is a security on the stock exchange in the NY stock market. Quoting his words in the video directly...


Sadly my birth certificate is put away at the moment and I can't test this theory for myself. However has anyone heard this theory before? Or Jordan Maxwell? Is he just reinterpreting those numbers? Can your name actually be found on the stock exchange? Something seems a weeee bit fishy here. Of course the video uses spooky music because this apparently helps prove the point.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This seems like a claim without evidence, which are not normally worth debunking. Does he actually give any evidence at all that his claim is true?
 

derrick06

Active Member
Well his evidence is the apparently that those numbers on a birth certificate are designating a link to a stock... However this could be debunked if we can have a source designating what those numbers REALLY mean. I would just test his claim head on but currently I don't have access to my BC... I feel this is still worth debunking because it's quite popular for conspiracy heads to throw around.
 

derrick06

Active Member
A bit off subject from the main claim I found an issue with some small talk at the beginning of the video where he claims the practice of birth certificates came from...
How does that even make sense? Of course there is no source that this came from Nazi Germany but of course there is definitely information on the contrary. From Wikipedia...


Clearly documenting births was a thing WAY before 1930 or Nazi Germany...
 

Balance

Senior Member.
Isn't this a belief of the Freeman on the land movement?
They seem to re-interpret the law and legalese (and ignore statutes as being optional)

The bit about the Birth Certificate bonds arises from this belief...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land
FOI requests (sorry I can't find them right now) answer what the numbers officially represent.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Well his evidence is the apparently that those numbers on a birth certificate are designating a link to a stock...

That's not evidence. That's a claim without any evidence.

And which numbers? Certificates vary greatly by state, and have changed over time. Obviously they would have serial numbers. But they all vary by state.

Sorry, but unless there a more specific claim of evidence, then I don't really feel there's anything to debunk.
 
Isn't this a belief of the Freeman on the land movement?
They seem to re-interpret the law and legalese (and ignore statutes as being optional)

Balance hit the right nail on the head. This is straight from the FOTL (Freeman On The Land) and sovereign citizen playbook.
Please ignore it for the sake of not becoming one of those dreadful people who insist on their right to argue their legal status in traffic court for as long as possible while dozens of other people wait to have their case heard.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Balance hit the right nail on the head. This is straight from the FOTL (Freeman On The Land) and sovereign citizen playbook.
Please ignore it for the sake of not becoming one of those dreadful people who insist on their right to argue their legal status in traffic court for as long as possible while dozens of other people wait to have their case heard.
i googled "what are the numbers on birth certificates" and there is an explanation a few links down
i was born after 1960 (New York State) though and have no numbers on my certificate. i do have the embossed seal..which i believe is the "security paper", but i'm too lazy to look up what 'security paper' actually means as i agree with Mick.

But under the google search "what are the numbers on birth certificates", if you click images, there are tons of BCs with serial numbers shown.

edit: ---text edit..oops guess i should have actually read it ..not the emboss. My certificate doesnt appear to be on security paper. and doesnt say anything about security paper on it. maybe that is just for copies?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_paper

bc.png

800px-BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg
 
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derrick06

Active Member
That's not evidence. That's a claim without any evidence.

And which numbers? Certificates vary greatly by state, and have changed over time. Obviously they would have serial numbers. But they all vary by state.

Sorry, but unless there a more specific claim of evidence, then I don't really feel there's anything to debunk.

You make a good point Mick, so he's essentially just rambling on about a claim that isn't even able to be tested through information then aye?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You make a good point Mick, so he's essentially just rambling on about a claim that isn't even able to be tested through information then aye?

He's just rambling. Again, he's not making a claim of evidence. He's claiming that if you do something, then something else will happen. He's not providing any evidence that it actually does happen.

It's like he's saying "if you go to a police station, and wave a flag, they will give you a cake". But he provides no evidence to back it up. Sure, you could got to a police station and wave a flag, get no cake, and hence disprove his theory. But why would you? The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
 

derrick06

Active Member
Balance hit the right nail on the head. This is straight from the FOTL (Freeman On The Land) and sovereign citizen playbook.
Please ignore it for the sake of not becoming one of those dreadful people who insist on their right to argue their legal status in traffic court for as long as possible while dozens of other people wait to have their case heard.
Ah so this isn't a new claim then? Interesting to see. @Mick is right. I suppose it's More claim than actual evidence based but I found it interesting that this theory has spread so fast. People believe it but nobody seems to question it so I fealt an urge to discuss it with people on here who have been around the block and fighting bunk a wee bit longer. I appreciate your feedback everyone!
 

mm1145

Member
I knew I had seen this calim before this is old bunk

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I knew I had seen this calim before this is old bunk

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

Exactly. The whole thing seems to be based on the rather ludicrous concept that there are perfectly legal ways to unlock vast riches and get out of debt, if you know the secret code. The idea seems to be that the government makes it almost, but not quite impossible to crack, and will willingly hand over the loot to those smart enough to know the special handshake. It doesn't seem to occur to them that the government makes the laws, and if any such loophole existed it would have been closed long ago.
 

tadaaa

Senior Member
lol, I love these theories, they are so daft

they do work though, right up until you are convicted and thrown in jail - for contempt, at the very least

they remind me of the story regarding the Nigerian counter fitter, who forged a cheque for 2 billion dollars (perfectly I might add)

it was an audacious and successful plan ----- right up until he went to cash it!!!!!!
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
lol, I love these theories, they are so daft

they do work though, right up until you are convicted and thrown in jail - for contempt, at the very least

They work until they are tested. But part of the reason they are popular is that they give the illusion of working. Like the "You don't have to pay taxes" scams. Since the tax system is voluntary unless you get audited, you can put anything down on your tax return as a deduction and pay no taxes - or even get a big refund. So it looks like it works.

Then you (probably) get audited a few years later, and go to jail.

But here, with "your birth certificate is worth millions", there's even less of an illusion of working than that. It's just a magical belief wth no evidence to back it up, that would fall apart if ever tested.
 

derrick06

Active Member
I knew I had seen this calim before this is old bunk

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land



I think this one hit the nail really hard on the head. Disproving the logic and even the claim of evidence. Thanks for sharing. I figured some of you had seen this before. Appreciate the help everyone. I know this isn't quite the subject matter we tackle on here but it was a popular one I had ran into a few times.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
lol, I love these theories, they are so daft

they do work though, right up until you are convicted and thrown in jail - for contempt, at the very least

they remind me of the story regarding the Nigerian counter fitter, who forged a cheque for 2 billion dollars (perfectly I might add)

it was an audacious and successful plan ----- right up until he went to cash it!!!!!!
Like the guy I know who had a fool proof way of not paying his UK TV license. It worked fine until the court letter for non-payment arrived and he wrote back with his sure-fire legal grounds for not paying.... The refusal to pay his £145.50 soon turned into a £500 fine, plus costs and then when he still refused to pay an extra judgement for non-payment of fines tripled the amoount due and then the bailiffs got involved and the whole episode ended up costing him around £3,000;
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
Like the guy I know who had a fool proof way of not paying his UK TV license. It worked fine until the court letter for non-payment arrived and he wrote back with his sure-fire legal grounds for not paying.... The refusal to pay his £145.50 soon turned into a £500 fine, plus costs and then when he still refused to pay an extra judgement for non-payment of fines tripled the amoount due and then the bailiffs got involved and the whole episode ended up costing him around £3,000;
Please tell me it was Tony. ( I am so evil)
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
It is very sad when people believe these things. Interesting that the people spouting it very rarely actually use them themselves. I understand that John Harris, a big promoter of this kind of stuff just paid up when chased for back taxes, and didn't try any of the tricks he was advocating.
 

Balance

Senior Member.
FOI requests (sorry I can't find them right now) answer what the numbers officially represent.

To complete this. Here's one example of such an FOI request https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/birth_certificate_numbers
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
i think some of the confusion does lie in business law, but they got it the wrong way round.
If a company is made up of Me, mick, and TW CObra, then you have to sue the three of us individuals as we are the company. If I leave and Weedwhacker and Deirdre join the board, you have to go back to companies house and change all the details so someone then has to deal with a different set of directors.
So instead, the COMPANY is given a Business registration which is a legal fiction and is described as "being like a birth certificate for the company" so you then deal with or sue the COMPANY. And whoever is in charge takes the rap, rather than having to change a lot of paperwork EVERY time the personnel change.

So a birth certificate does NOT make a person like a company, a company registration makes it like a person.

It is based on a big misunderstanding, whether accidental or a deliberately taken out of context.
 

Balance

Senior Member.
The name Master Stuart is likely used to avoid...
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Strawman_theory
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It's interesting because it's right on the intersection between fantasy and reality. Most "alternative" beliefs like chemtrails and 9/11 trutherism have very little impact on a person's lives - they are just some odd beliefs. So there's a buffer between fantasy and reality. Here with "sovereign citizen" type beliefs the idea that you don't have to pay taxes ( or get a driver's license, or pay debts) is in direct conflict with practical reality. A reckoning is inevitable, and that reckoning for most people (I suspect) will hit them like a cold bucket of realization that they were wrong (at least on the practical level).

Other belief systems, like chemtrails or aliens, have no such reckoning. There's no real consequence to belief in chemtrails other than a building puzzlement that the end of the world is not arriving, and not understanding why your friends and family don't talk to you any more.

Perhaps it might be useful (regarding chemtrails) to force some kind of reckoning? I'm thinking specifically about predictions people make. You know Dane Wigington is constantly predicting the imminent collapse of everything. Has he put a date on it? Have there been prior predictions?
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
It is based on a big misunderstanding, whether accidental or a deliberately taken out of context.

This is the entire Freeman/legalese concept summed up, a big misunderstanding. Having dealt with a few recently I can say they are true believers in what they've read and been told is "the law" (which is what can make them a bit on the dangerous side). Even if you print off legislation and read it to them, they will swear black and blue that it's not lawful because the government is listed on the stock exchange and therefore is a company that they dont need to obey (?). No lawyer will bother with them, and most refuse legal representation because "that would grant someone power over them in legal matters" o_O...

A reckoning is inevitable, and that reckoning for most people (I suspect) will hit them like a cold bucket of realization that they were wrong (at least on the practical level).

I've seen the same "Freemen" get arrested time and again due to non appearance in court, warrant after warrant, all because it just doesnt hit them that they've got it wrong. One was remanded for weeks at a time for refusing to give the magistrate his name, as that would be "giving the court a name by which to enslave me"...it knocks me over just how deeply ingrained their belief is.
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
This is the entire Freeman/legalese concept summed up, a big misunderstanding. Having dealt with a few recently I can say they are true believers in what they've read and been told is "the law" (which is what can make them a bit on the dangerous side). Even if you print off legislation and read it to them, they will swear black and blue that it's not lawful because the government is listed on the stock exchange and therefore is a company that they dont need to obey (?). No lawyer will bother with them, and most refuse legal representation because "that would grant someone power over them in legal matters" o_O...



I've seen the same "Freemen" get arrested time and again due to non appearance in court, warrant after warrant, all because it just doesnt hit them that they've got it wrong. One was remanded for weeks at a time for refusing to give the magistrate his name, as that would be "giving the court a name by which to enslave me"...it knocks me over just how deeply ingrained their belief is.
I never really understood how they brought Maritime law into it though. That never made sense.
I've seen an Australian posting on facebook how the Pope has some control over Aussie laws or something and that was linked to Maritime law somehow.
 

derrick06

Active Member
I never really understood how they brought Maritime law into it though. That never made sense.
I've seen an Australian posting on facebook how the Pope has some control over Aussie laws or something and that was linked to Maritime law somehow.

I am consistently amused how people seem to think the Pope rules the world... This is so far from the truth. They look at customs from the height of the church's power, mix contexts with law of the time period, compare it to modern law and BAM. Another overhyped conspiracy theory because they look for only what they want to see.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I've seen the same "Freemen" get arrested time and again due to non appearance in court, warrant after warrant, all because it just doesnt hit them that they've got it wrong. One was remanded for weeks at a time for refusing to give the magistrate his name, as that would be "giving the court a name by which to enslave me"...it knocks me over just how deeply ingrained their belief is.

I suspect though that that's the visible tip of the iceberg - the stuck true believer. There are many more who go to a seminar, don't file their income tax, then get caught (or just succumb to reason) and realize it's not actually going to work.
 

derrick06

Active Member
Totally random @occams rusty scissor but quoting what you said above on what they claim

"Even if you print off legislation and read it to them, they will swear black and blue that it's not lawful because the government is listed on the stock exchange and therefore is a company that they dont need to obey."

Out of curiosity, are goverment's actually listed on the stock exchange? Is it do to Gross domestic product? Or is that just another fallacy they made up as well. Just wondering.
 

derrick06

Active Member
What this definitely shows is that knowledge really is power. It's amazing how a lack of understanding on how stock exchange works and essentials of law and perhaps a bit of history lead to people just jumping right into these believes without asking themselves or checking if it just might be bullshit...
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
I never really understood how they brought Maritime law into it though. That never made sense.
I've seen an Australian posting on facebook how the Pope has some control over Aussie laws or something and that was linked to Maritime law somehow.

Yeah I dont quite get the origin of that either. I had one guy bring the Phoenecians (!) into it and relate slave names back to capital letters and such, but baulked when I asked about the "admiralty law" he said I operated under.

Edit: Theres an attempted explanation here: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/10/03/31/law-land…-or-law-sea-david-icke-8th-may-2009

..he had me at "statue law". Somewhere lies a lengthy tome related to the governance of artfully formed concrete objects..

There's definitely a few more of them getting about now in Aus than there were 5-6 years ago. Not widespread and not quite as militant as in other countries, but slowly growing. There's a funny YouTube clip somewhere in Queensland of a magistrate ordering a psych assessment on a sovereign citizen after 5 minutes of him trying his legalese and failing.
 
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occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
Out of curiosity, are goverment's actually listed on the stock exchange? Is it do to Gross domestic product? Or is that just another fallacy they made up as well. Just wondering.

Oh dear...

If you want to do your head in and try to understand what it is they've messed up, have a look here http://www.peoplesmandate.iinet.net.au/Government_as_Foreign_corporation.html

..be warned, the logic made me cross eyed.

The Australian government is, apparently, listed as " Commonwealth of Australia" on a stock exchange, as explained in the link above. There's a legit reason for it I'm sure, but don't look for it on this page.
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
I suspect though that that's the visible tip of the iceberg - the stuck true believer. There are many more who go to a seminar, don't file their income tax, then get caught (or just succumb to reason) and realize it's not actually going to work.

Yeah I agree - some would see it as a "give it a go" and see what happens. The ones that take it for gospel would be the bulk of our "Freeman" customers.
 

mm1145

Member
Perhaps it might be useful (regarding chemtrails) to force some kind of reckoning? I'm thinking specifically about predictions people make. You know Dane Wigington is constantly predicting the imminent collapse of everything. Has he put a date on it? Have there been prior predictions?

not going to work there are pepole who still belive the end of the world dec 2012 stuff and remember the harold camping thing with the rapture? even when they have a hard perdiction that dose not come about the belife lives on.

it would be interesting to try maybe prhaps sugest that they make a positiove prediction that could be tested? that to me is the problem with most of the chem trail etxc belivers they refuse to make testeable predictions
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
Yeah I dont quite get the origin of that either. I had one guy bring the Phoenecians (!) into it and relate slave names back to capital letters and such, but baulked when I asked about the "admiralty law" he said I operated under.

Edit: Theres an attempted explanation here: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/10/03/31/law-land…-or-law-sea-david-icke-8th-may-2009

..he had me at "statue law". Somewhere lies a lengthy tome related to the governance of artfully formed concrete objects..

There's definitely a few more of them getting about now in Aus than there were 5-6 years ago. Not widespread and not quite as militant as in other countries, but slowly growing. There's a funny YouTube clip somewhere in Queensland of a magistrate ordering a psych assessment on a sovereign citizen after 5 minutes of him trying his legalese and failing.
and the dock being an enclosed area where the defendant stands, symbolically still caged while on trial apparently stems from the flemish word Docke meaning cage.

What also is odd, is how these Freeman ideas spread across countries, even though the rules and laws and customs are different. Flags in a courtroom apparently show a maritime connection, although it's very rare to see a flag in a UK courtroom. US Freemen seem to also link to the Magna Carta ( A UK document from 1215 that Freemen think can never be repealed even though the original was repealed within months and even replacements have been almost completely superseded by now. )
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
I tried googling all the sets of numbers on my Birth certificate.
I got a wide range of hits, but none were (suspicious) or specific to me.

Searching a string of numbers, up to 9 or so numbers (especially if there are spaces), will bring-up almost anything, from baby toys, to gov't supply numbers.
"NSN" (National Stock Numbers) results come up often...even if not including all 13 numerals.
I wonder if this has confused anyone...the word "stock" ?
But NSN's are....
...and I'm reaching with the above scenario. It's all I could come up with, regarding the word "stock", if you are looking-up your personal numbers.
 
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tadaaa

Senior Member
they (Freemen) get really exercised with the genuine legal term "joinder"

which I believe simply means to "join" things together - the legal profession (along with most other professions) have a habit of needlessly complicating things

and obviously they totally misunderstand it

so in conversations with "authority" they often refuse to accept a "joinder" being created between themselves, as a human being - i.e. the physical entity and the administrative representation - i.e. a letter to Mr Stuart

so in essence a TAX demand sent to Mr Stuart is invalid because they would argue there is no "joinder" to themselves

and as said a great strategy - until it is actually tested
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This type of thing is why I dissuade semantic arguments. If you are arguing over the meaning of words, then use different words. If the words are in a law that applies to you then check with a lawyer, or just ask the judge when you are in court.
 
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